Catholics and "the Sacred Heart of Mary"

[xypnios]

I'm Orthodox, so this isn't an attack on the veneration of Mary because we also venerate her and love her. She is the most perfect Saint. However we don't see her as Divine.


I notice this Catholic tendency to map the Divine qualities of our Lord onto the Theotokos (literally: God-bearer, what we call Mary) and turn her into a Divine being herself when she was in fact completely human just like me. This is most apparent in the Catholic practice of choosing a body part of hers such as her heart and venerating that specifically. If she was a great woman, but simply woman (human) how could her heart be Divine and sacred? Why is her "sacred heart" venerated?


Also, can a Catholic explain to me the logic of viewing Mary as coredemptrix? I read on a Catholic blog that her tears when she went to Christ on the cross mingled with Christ's blood and thus became as much part of our salvation as his blood did. I regard the notion that Mary having a hand in our actual salvation (not Mary interceding on our behalf and asking God to save us, but being able to save us herded) as heresy since it turns her into a God or demigod like figure.


Again, we LOVE Mary and we love the saints. We venerate them and we pray for their intercession on our behalf, but the saints (Theotokos included) were human and can not save us.


I'm very interested in hearing a Catholic expand upon this.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello, xypnios, and welcome to CF! It's always nice to see Orthodox brothers joining us.

I can't answer your question, but I'm mildly curious too. I hadn't heard the part about the tears, but I would have to agree that, except for her role in Christ becoming Incarnate, and her prayers, and her help to the early Church, and so on the Theotokos doesn't have a role in our salvation - so not the direct kind of role Christ Himself has. But that certainly doesn't mean we love her any less.

By the way, I'm not often in this forum. I hope you get an answer here, but if you don't, I might suggest one of the Catholic forums like One Bread One Body - you can't debate them there but you can ask questions. Or maybe Traditional Theology, which might involve discussions from other Traditional perspectives as we seek to better understand one another. And by all means, please drop by The Ancient Way, which is the EO forum.

Again, welcome to CF! We are glad to have you join us!

 

[xypnios]

Hello, xypnios, and welcome to CF! It's always nice to see Orthodox brothers joining us.

I can't answer your question, but I'm mildly curious too. I hadn't heard the part about the tears, but I would have to agree that, except for her role in Christ becoming Incarnate, and her prayers, and her help to the early Church, and so on the Theotokos doesn't have a role in our salvation - so not the direct kind of role Christ Himself has. But that certainly doesn't mean we love her any less.

By the way, I'm not often in this forum. I hope you get an answer here, but if you don't, I might suggest one of the Catholic forums like One Bread One Body - you can't debate them there but you can ask questions. Or maybe Traditional Theology, which might involve discussions from other Traditional perspectives as we seek to better understand one another. And by all means, please drop by The Ancient Way, which is the EO forum.

Again, welcome to CF! We are glad to have you join us!

Thank you for your response! I'll definitely check out those forums I just didn't know where the right place to post was. On other Catholic forums they don't like when non-Catholics who aren't asking a question regarding converting post in their space.

 

[zippy2006]

This is most apparent in the Catholic practice of choosing a body part of hers such as her heart and venerating that specifically. If she was a great woman, but simply woman (human) how could her heart be Divine and sacred? Why is her "sacred heart" venerated?

I'm not familiar with any practice holding Mary's heart to be divine or even sacred; it is usually referred to as "Immaculate."

Also, can a Catholic explain to me the logic of viewing Mary as coredemptrix?

This is a controversial title for Mary, and I'm not sure it has been officially recognized by the Church.

 

[xypnios]

I'm not familiar with any practice holding Mary's heart to be divine or even sacred; it is usually referred to as "Immaculate."

Ah I see. The Immaculate title is due to the Immaculate conception right? That isn't something we believe in, in Orthodoxy because our different idea of original sin makes it redundant (I can expand if you'd like) but that makes bit more sense. Why her heart? Why not all of her?

This is a controversial title for Mary, and I'm not sure it has been officially recognized by the Church.

Ah I see.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm glad to hear "co-redemptrix" is considered controversial.

Since coming to CF, I have found it best to ask Catholics what Catholics believe, and so on. I'm afraid there is a good deal of misrepresentation out there, and a good deal of it specifically directed at Catholicism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for your response! I'll definitely check out those forums I just didn't know where the right place to post was. On other Catholic forums they don't like when non-Catholics who aren't asking a question regarding converting post in their space.

You're most welcome!

According to the intent of the forums, I think this is a perfect place. I'm just not sure it's been very actively participated in by those who could give the best answers.

Many of us find a few forums which become our favorites, and spend most of our time there. I'm just not that familiar with the usual dynamics of this one.

And I look forward to seeing you around!

 

[xypnios]

I'm glad to hear "co-redemptrix" is considered controversial.

Since coming to CF, I have found it best to ask Catholics what Catholics believe, and so on. I'm afraid there is a good deal of misrepresentation out there, and a good deal of it specifically directed at Catholicism.

As an Orthodox Christian, I find that most anti-Catholic propaganda put out by Protestants in America, the UK, Canada etc would apply equally to me as well so I ignore it. Orthodox critiques of Catholicism are mostly based on specific theological points and not things like "PAGAN IDOL WORSHIPPERS" or something.

 

[~Anastasia~]

As an Orthodox Christian, I find that most anti-Catholic propaganda put out by Protestants in America, the UK, Canada etc would apply equally to me as well so I ignore it. Orthodox critiques of Catholicism are mostly based on specific theological points and not things like "PAGAN IDOL WORSHIPPERS" or something.

I know exactly what you mean.

I am surprised how often I find myself defending Catholicism on CF, though we certainly have matters of disagreement with them. But the disagreements usually aren't the kind of thing that really register with most Protestants, often because their underpinnings are Catholic and they may not even realize there is any other way of looking at a particular question.

I find the interplay, overlap, and differences between Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and various kinds of Protestants to be very interesting.

But the trumped-up charges of paganism and the like just get old ...

 

[MacDawg]

I'm Orthodox, so this isn't an attack on the veneration of Mary because we also venerate her and love her. She is the most perfect Saint. However we don't see her as Divine.


I notice this Catholic tendency to map the Divine qualities of our Lord onto the Theotokos (literally: God-bearer, what we call Mary) and turn her into a Divine being herself when she was in fact completely human just like me. This is most apparent in the Catholic practice of choosing a body part of hers such as her heart and venerating that specifically. If she was a great woman, but simply woman (human) how could her heart be Divine and sacred? Why is her "sacred heart" venerated?


Also, can a Catholic explain to me the logic of viewing Mary as coredemptrix? I read on a Catholic blog that her tears when she went to Christ on the cross mingled with Christ's blood and thus became as much part of our salvation as his blood did. I regard the notion that Mary having a hand in our actual salvation (not Mary interceding on our behalf and asking God to save us, but being able to save us herded) as heresy since it turns her into a God or demigod like figure.


Again, we LOVE Mary and we love the saints. We venerate them and we pray for their intercession on our behalf, but the saints (Theotokos included) were human and can not save us.


I'm very interested in hearing a Catholic expand upon this.

Hi Xypnios-
I am Catholic, but I am not a theologian so other might have better or more complete answers then I do. However I have been curious about many of the same questions that many of my non-catholic christian brothers have and I have taken some time to truly understand them. I honestly wish more Catholics would take the time to understand their own faith better. It is truly a beautiful faith.
Your explanation of the veneration of Mary is excellent and follows right along the same lines as Catholic Teaching. Whether there are Catholics that take the to the level of worship I don't know, but I don't doubt. But the catholic Church is very clear the Worship is reserved for God alone, Catholics, like you venerate Mary as the Mother of God. As far as your first question about the Sacred Heart, only Christ has a Sacred Heart and when Catholics pray to the Sacred Heart the ask for God's mercy, which again comes from Christ alone. As far as Mary goes we pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. You might be confusing the with the Sacred Heart, but its not at all the same. Mary, like you said, is human like you and I but she had the most perfect love for the Jesus, the love only a mother could have for her child. When we pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we ask for her to pray for us. We venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary as a way of recognizing unique love for Jesus and her unique grace given to her by God and her ability to intercede for us with her son.
As for your second question, why do Catholics call Mary Coredemptrix, I never heard this a a Catholic growing up. The first time I heard this was from a protestant friend who told me. But when I looked into it it is true, but completely misunderstood. Christ came into the world to redeem us from our sins, he suffered and died for our sins, and he is our only redeemer. Without Christ there would be no Redemption, period! But God chose to come into the world through Mary. He could have come in any way he wanted, which is obvious because he is God, But in the "fullness of time" He chose to come to us through Mary. It is in this act of bring redemption to us through Christ as the son of Mary that Mary is the Corefemptrix. This does not mean we gain redemption through Mary, not Christ, that would be a heresy. But it does again give Mary a unique position of participating in Christ's redemption that no other human being could ever obtain, a position she obtained directly from God.
As far as the part of the "tears of Mary mixing with the blood of Jesus" I have never heard this and I can say with a certain confidence that this is not a part of official teaching. It could be something to do with with the agony Mary suffered at the foot of the cross watching her Son be crucified. The Catholic Church does believe we should offer our suffering for the sins of the world and in that way take up our cross and can unite our suffering with Christ's suffering. It could be something down this line, but I did not see the blog, so I cant really explain.
In Christ's Blessings. Mike

 

[xypnios]

I know exactly what you mean.

I am surprised how often I find myself defending Catholicism on CF, though we certainly have matters of disagreement with them. But the disagreements usually aren't the kind of thing that really register with most Protestants, often because their underpinnings are Catholic and they may not even realize there is any other way of looking at a particular question.

Precisely how I feel. Protestants will often critique Catholicism for things like veneration of saints (so called "idolatry" or even "polytheism") and in some more intense circles for "loyalty to a foreign power" like the Pope although that is something mostly confined to Scotland and Northern Ireland at this point. Both of those charges could easily be applied to me if they saw me kissing an icon in Church, or knew that my Patriarch literally lives in the Kremlin.


My critique of Catholicism is a lot different, mostly to due with the nature of Petrine supremacy, original sin etc etc

I find the interplay, overlap, and differences between Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and various kinds of Protestants to be very interesting.

Definitely, agree with you there.

 

[zippy2006]

Ah I see. The Immaculate title is due to the Immaculate conception right? That isn't something we believe in, in Orthodoxy because our different idea of original sin makes it redundant (I can expand if you'd like) but that makes bit more sense. Why her heart? Why not all of her?

I think heart is just meant to refer to the intimate core of the person, the seat of the will and of life, as commonly used in Scripture. Devotion to the Immaculate Heart comes largely from Our Lady of Fatima, but I'm not sure how widely the term "Immaculate Heart" was in use before that.

Actually I would be interested in your expanded explanation. What is your differing idea of Original Sin and in what ways do you see Mary as a special saint in God's plan of salvation? (I have some idea of what Orthodox believe, but it isn't overly clear to me)

 

[xypnios]

Hi Xypnios-
I am Catholic, but I am not a theologian so other might have better or more complete answers then I do. However I have been curious about many of the same questions that many of my non-catholic christian brothers have and I have taken some time to truly understand them. I honestly wish more Catholics would take the time to understand their own faith better. It is truly a beautiful faith.
Your explanation of the veneration of Mary is excellent and follows right along the same lines as Catholic Teaching. Whether there are Catholics that take the to the level of worship I don't know, but I don't doubt. But the catholic Church is very clear the Worship is reserved for God alone, Catholics, like you venerate Mary as the Mother of God. As far as your first question about the Sacred Heart, only Christ has a Sacred Heart and when Catholics pray to the Sacred Heart the ask for God's mercy, which again comes from Christ alone. As far as Mary goes we pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. You might be confusing the with the Sacred Heart, but its not at all the same. Mary, like you said, is human like you and I but she had the most perfect love for the Jesus, the love only a mother could have for her child. When we pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we ask for her to pray for us. We venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary as a way of recognizing unique love for Jesus and her unique grace given to her by God and her ability to intercede for us with her son.
As for your second question, why do Catholics call Mary Coredemptrix, I never heard this a a Catholic growing up. The first time I heard this was from a protestant friend who told me. But when I looked into it it is true, but completely misunderstood. Christ came into the world to redeem us from our sins, he suffered and died for our sins, and he is our only redeemer. Without Christ there would be no Redemption, period! But God chose to come into the world through Mary. He could have come in any way he wanted, which is obvious because he is God, But in the "fullness of time" He chose to come to us through Mary. It is in this act of bring redemption to us through Christ as the son of Mary that Mary is the Corefemptrix. This does not mean we gain redemption through Mary, not Christ, that would be a heresy. But it does again give Mary a unique position of participating in Christ's redemption that no other human being could ever obtain, a position she obtained directly from God.
As far as the part of the "tears of Mary mixing with the blood of Jesus" I have never heard this and I can say with a certain confidence that this is not a part of official teaching. It could be something to do with with the agony Mary suffered at the foot of the cross watching her Son be crucified. The Catholic Church does believe we should offer our suffering for the sins of the world and in that way take up our cross and can unite our suffering with Christ's suffering. It could be something down this line, but I did not see the blog, so I cant really explain.
In Christ's Blessings. Mike

Mike, thanks for your answer. I'm glad that it seems that Rome is on the same page with us in regards to venerating the Holy Mother.


May I ask why the heart specifically? Is there anything that makes her heart different from the rest of her? Same with Christ himself, I love all of him and I wouldn't feel comfortable (proverbially) breaking him into pieces to worship? Is there something within Catholic tradition specifically that holds the heart to be more venerable? Maybe this has to do with western culture portraying the heart as the love organ (I U meaning I love you) whereas in the east there wasn't ever the association with the heart as a body part that loves.

 

[~Anastasia~]

"The Immaculate Nous" just doesn't have the same ring, does it?

Forgive me, I meant that in a gently teasing way, and not as disrespect to anyone at all, especially not the Theotokos. More the vagaries of language ...

 

[xypnios]

Actually I would be interested in your expanded explanation. What is your differing idea of Original Sin and in what ways do you see Mary as a special saint in God's plan of salvation? (I have some idea of what Orthodox believe, but it isn't overly clear to me)

Catholicism sort of sees original sin as some sort of inherited guilt, where we are born in a sinful state.


Orthodoxy doesn't see it the same, original sin is manifest in the reality of human mortality (the wages of sin are death) and in mankind's innate proclivity for sin.


Catholic theology in regards to original sin makes the Immaculate Conception necessary, since Mary couldn't have been sinless if she was born with the guilt of sin from the beginning. It also makes purgatory necessary, to explain where unbaptised infants (who obviously don't deserve hell because they're infants) go to when they die.

We believe Mary was sinless because she didn't sin, not because she was somehow cleaned of sin by God. We believe that that idea is somewhat insulting to the Theotokos, because it removes her agency in regards to her sinlessness.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for that explanation, MacDawg, that was helpful.

And welcome to CF! We are very glad to have you with us.

Please let us know if you need help navigating the forums or anything. I hope to see you around. You may of course be very interested in the Catholic forums, but I hope you'll check in with Traditional Theology as well. I think your posts would be most welcome there (up front, we usually ask folks to read the Statement of Purpose, though I see nothing at all in your posting style that would be any problem), because we do value posting in a civil and respectful manner, and appreciate learning from and understanding one another better.

Again, welcome to CF!

Hi Xypnios-
I am Catholic, but I am not a theologian so other might have better or more complete answers then I do. However I have been curious about many of the same questions that many of my non-catholic christian brothers have and I have taken some time to truly understand them. I honestly wish more Catholics would take the time to understand their own faith better. It is truly a beautiful faith.
Your explanation of the veneration of Mary is excellent and follows right along the same lines as Catholic Teaching. Whether there are Catholics that take the to the level of worship I don't know, but I don't doubt. But the catholic Church is very clear the Worship is reserved for God alone, Catholics, like you venerate Mary as the Mother of God. As far as your first question about the Sacred Heart, only Christ has a Sacred Heart and when Catholics pray to the Sacred Heart the ask for God's mercy, which again comes from Christ alone. As far as Mary goes we pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. You might be confusing the with the Sacred Heart, but its not at all the same. Mary, like you said, is human like you and I but she had the most perfect love for the Jesus, the love only a mother could have for her child. When we pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we ask for her to pray for us. We venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary as a way of recognizing unique love for Jesus and her unique grace given to her by God and her ability to intercede for us with her son.
As for your second question, why do Catholics call Mary Coredemptrix, I never heard this a a Catholic growing up. The first time I heard this was from a protestant friend who told me. But when I looked into it it is true, but completely misunderstood. Christ came into the world to redeem us from our sins, he suffered and died for our sins, and he is our only redeemer. Without Christ there would be no Redemption, period! But God chose to come into the world through Mary. He could have come in any way he wanted, which is obvious because he is God, But in the "fullness of time" He chose to come to us through Mary. It is in this act of bring redemption to us through Christ as the son of Mary that Mary is the Corefemptrix. This does not mean we gain redemption through Mary, not Christ, that would be a heresy. But it does again give Mary a unique position of participating in Christ's redemption that no other human being could ever obtain, a position she obtained directly from God.
As far as the part of the "tears of Mary mixing with the blood of Jesus" I have never heard this and I can say with a certain confidence that this is not a part of official teaching. It could be something to do with with the agony Mary suffered at the foot of the cross watching her Son be crucified. The Catholic Church does believe we should offer our suffering for the sins of the world and in that way take up our cross and can unite our suffering with Christ's suffering. It could be something down this line, but I did not see the blog, so I cant really explain.
In Christ's Blessings. Mike

 

[MacDawg]

Mike, thanks for your answer. I'm glad that it seems that Rome is on the same page with us in regards to venerating the Holy Mother.


May I ask why the heart specifically? Is there anything that makes her heart different from the rest of her? Same with Christ himself, I love all of him and I wouldn't feel comfortable (proverbially) breaking him into pieces to worship? Is there something within Catholic tradition specifically that holds the heart to be more venerable? Maybe this has to do with western culture portraying the heart as the love organ (I U meaning I love you) whereas in the east there wasn't ever the association with the heart as a body part that loves.

That's a good question. I have always taken it to be what you call as the love organ, and I suspect that might be were it comes from. When I worship Christ I always worship Christ as the second Person of the Trinity, when I pray to the sacred heart of Jesus its not like I am separating his heart from the rest of him, its more of a way of me focusing on His Mercy in my prayer, which I always have a special need for. When I venerate Mary Immaculate Heart, I am focusing on my imperfect love for Christ and asking for her intercession to help me develop a more perfect love or Christ. That's how I look at it, but I never did any specific research on its orgins.

 

[zippy2006]

Catholicism sort of sees original sin as some sort of inherited guilt, where we are born in a sinful state.

From the Catechism:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence.​

Orthodoxy doesn't see it the same, original sin is manifest in the reality of human mortality (the wages of sin are death) and in mankind's innate proclivity for sin.

That seems very similar to what Catholics believe.

Catholic theology in regards to original sin makes the Immaculate Conception necessary, since Mary couldn't have been sinless if she was born with the guilt of sin from the beginning.

As noted above, Original Sin does not mean that Adam's descendants inherit a personal fault or the guilt thereof.

So do you believe that Mary was subject to death and had an innate proclivity for sin, just as all others do?

It also makes purgatory necessary, to explain where unbaptised infants (who obviously don't deserve hell because they're infants) go to when they die.

You're probably thinking of Limbo, a theological opinion from the Middle Ages. Purgatory is a place where those who have been saved are purified, as though by fire (1 Cor 3:15), before entering into God's presence.

We believe Mary was sinless because she didn't sin, not because she was somehow cleaned of sin by God. We believe that that idea is somewhat insulting to the Theotokos, because it removes her agency in regards to her sinlessness.

We believe that Mary was not born with the innate proclivity to sin. She was "full of grace," obedient to God in all things.

If the Immaculate Conception removes agency, then it would seem that baptism too would remove agency. In truth both give a true freedom of agency, for those with a proclivity to sin are not truly free.

 

[zippy2006]

That's a good question. I have always taken it to be what you call as the love organ, and I suspect that might be were it comes from.

I'd say it comes from Scripture.

 

[xypnios]

From the Catechism:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence.​

That seems very similar to what Catholics believe.



As noted above, Original Sin does not mean that Adam's descendants inherit a personal fault or the guilt thereof.

So do you believe that Mary was subject to death and had an innate proclivity for sin, just as all others do?



You're probably thinking of Limbo, a theological opinion from the Middle Ages. Purgatory is a place where those who have been saved are purified, as though by fire (1 Cor 3:15), before entering into God's presence.



We believe that Mary was not born with the innate proclivity to sin. She was "full of grace," obedient to God in all things.

If the Immaculate Conception removes agency, then it would seem that baptism too would remove agency. In truth both give a true freedom of agency, for those with a proclivity to sin are not truly free.

In short, we believe that the Holy Virgin was born just like you and me and consciously did not sin by her own free will. That's what makes her sinless, because she consciously lived a life that was without sin.


There was actually a debate about this same topic in Catholicism, whether the Virgin was sinless because she consciously did not sin or whether she was born immaculately (without sin) but the Pope ended the debate by proclaiming the Immaculate Conception to be an infallible doctrine.


When I say it takes away her agency, I'm saying that it takes away that she consciously lived without sin by her own free will as opposed to being born without the same proclivity to sin as you and I. She did that on her own, since she was the same as you and I and was not Immaculately Concieved — she chose to not sin.