Do you need to to be Catholic in order to go to heaven?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 12.0%
  • No

    Votes: 21 84.0%
  • don't know

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25

amariselle

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How does one receive salvation then amariselle? Thank you.

Let me ask you this, for further clarification:

If someone freely offered you a gift, and asked you to simply believe and trust them that they truly were offering this gift to you, nothing required on your part, and though you didn't deserve it and had done nothing to earn it, (the very essence of a gift) and in response you insisted on paying for it (even a small part of it) would it still be a gift or would you, in effect, be refusing that gift by insisting on paying for it in some way?
 
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PeaceB

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Exactly. He clearly states (as has long been the stance of the Catholic Church) that it is a "dangerous and harmful temptation" to believe you can have a "direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the communion and meditation of the Church."
And rightfully so. The Bible does not teach "me and Jesus" Christianity. It is dangerous to think that one can accept Jesus and at the same time reject his Church (whether you think his Church is Catholic, Protestant, or whatever). The body of Christ is the Church, and Jesus is the head of that body.

Biblically, he is absolutely incorrect. The Church (regardless of whether it's "Protestant" or "Catholic" is NOT the "mediator" between God and man, we have ONE mediator, Jesus Christ.
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the one mediator. If you do not believe this, I can provide you will some official documents that state as much.

Jesus allows others to share in his mediation, as "sub-mediators" if you will. One example of this is when you ask a friend or a relative to pray for you. Your friend or a relative prays to God on your behalf, but that does not diminish the unique mediatorship that Jesus has with God.

Exactly. Unless a person is Catholic, apparently they cannot truly be a Christian. There is, according to Pope Francis (though this teaching in no way originated with him) no personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside of Catholic Church membership and acceptance and obedience to its hierarchy, traditions and doctrines.
No. You are just reading into the statements what you want to see. That is not what the Church teaches.


15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.​

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#3
Dominus Iesus
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#$143
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63


“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

But if you want to continue believing it, that is cool by me. That is about as much time as I would like to spend on this particular issue.

Of course not. You need to understand the significance of Jesus' transfiguration, witnessed by both the "Law" (Moses) and the "prophets" (Elijah).The Law and the Prophets find their ultimate and complete fulfillment in Christ; He fulfills them.

Everything Jesus did in His earthly life and ministry was a fulfillment of prophecy and a confirmation that He is Who He claimed to be. Jesus was NOT engaging in necromancy here, He was confirming to His disciples His true identity as the foretold Messiah (the one Scripture always pointed to). Moses and Elijah are witnesses of that. Please don't distort this beautiful, event by compare or equating it to the occult/pagan and forbidden practice of necromancy, (people contacting the dead for guidance or blessing).
OK. You believe that we perform necromancy. I am OK with that. I do not feel like spending any more time discussing this particular issue.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. It was Abraham's FAITH that made him righteous in the eyes of God. Again, don't miss the significance of Abraham going up the mountain to sacrifice Issac. That is a picture of Christ, it all points to Him. So here we see God provide the sacrifice, because it is the sacrifice of HIS Son that saves us, not any sacrifice we can offer. We need to understand that the Scriptures point to Christ. It was also Rahab's faith that God responded to. She believed the Jews and that their God is the true God, and so she protected them. As a result of her faith, she was "grafted in" to the Jews and specifically the line of the future Messiah. Just as by faith all Gentiles have likewise been "grafted in."
It most certainly is the sacrifice of Jesus that saves us. But that does not mean that a person who has put his faith in Jesus Christ today, can go out and rape and murder people a month from today, without falling from grace.

If you carefully study the portion of scripture that you refer to above, concerning "grafting in," you will note that it teaches that one's salvation can be lost.

So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Note that above St. Paul is speaking about those who have been "grafted in" being "cut off".

I never said that grace is a license to sin. The Bible is clear that we are not to use our freedom in Christ in such a way. We need to remember though that salvation is in fact a GIFT, (not a reward or something we earn) freely given by the grace (unmerited) favour of God.
We agree here.

Actually, the Bible is clear, Christ is the "propitiation" for us. We stand in HIS perfect righteousness when we are saved and born again, spiritually new creations. That does not mean we BECOME God, and I never said that. That would be absolute heresy. It's Christ's righteousness through His perfect life and perfect sacrifice on our behalf. Receiving that sacrifice reconciles us, through Christ, with the Father, it does not make US God, it simply means we know our own "righteousness" (or lack thereof) cannot save us, which is why we need the Saviour.
I don't think I see anything here that I would object to, although I am a bit unclear as to how you would define certain terms.

So, in other words, we cannot actually ever have assurance of our salvation. Apparently we can't get ourselves saved, but we had better never sin ever again or we won't be keeping our salvation.
From a Catholic perspective, a person cannot have 100% mathematical assurance that he will go to heaven. God will decide our eternal fate when we die. But that does not mean that we cannot have confidence that we are saved, and that we are walking around shaking in our boots all of the time.

Concerning sin, we do not believe that every sin breaks the friendship with God that is granted one upon baptism. Mortal sins would break the friendship. The so-called venial sins would not. In simpler terms, if you tell a little white lie, you are OK. If you go out and rape and kill 20 people, you probably want to head to confession ASAP. All sins are not equal.

I believed that for years. It is not Biblical and it leads only to pride (I've done such and such good works and stopped sinning, so I know I'm saved) or utter dispair (I messed up again, so now, once again, I've forsaken God and lost my salvation).

In contrast, that Bible says when we believe on the Son (which is the will of the Father) being born again, we pass from death to life and are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and we can believe and trust Jesus when He says he will NEVER leave us or forsake us.

How can we be Spiritually "unborn" when we can't even be physically unborn? When a child disobeys their parents, do they stop being their parents' child? Of course not! That idea doesn't even work or make sense in an earthly, physical sense.
As an example, you could fall from grace if you were to go outside a month from now, rape and kill 20 people, become an atheist, never repent for your sins, and then kill yourself.

Your child may still always be your child, but that does not mean that he will receive an inheritance from you. I can speak to this fact directly, as my father left me nothing in his will.

No one who truly understands and glorifies God for His grace and mercy to sinners would ever just want to go out and start murdering people. And yes, once we are saved and born again, new creations in Christ, we have the Holy Spirit and He will guide us in our daily life.
True. But people change their minds. Plenty of men who love their wives today will go out and sleep with a prostitute several years from now. Unless you are omnipotent and can see the future, you cannot state for certain where you will be five years from now. Plenty of people who were just like you are ranting atheists at this very moment.

I completely disagree. Grace is offered through Christ, not through the sacraments or any other ordinances. We receive salvation through faith in Christ alone and in what HE has done, not by observing religious requirements, (works).
Well, why does St. Peter stated that baptism saves us? That sounds like grace to me.

Jesus confers grace though the Sacraments. For example, the anointing of the sick:

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.​

Jesus does not work exclusively though the sacraments, of course. God also confers grace to Catholics, non-Catholic Christians, and non-Christians outside of the sacraments, by whatever means he pleases. You can be saved, but you are lacking all of the graces that Jesus offers to you.
 
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PeaceB

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Let me ask you this, for further clarification:

If someone freely offered you a gift, and asked you to simply believe and trust them that they truly were offering this gift to you, nothing required on your part, and though you didn't deserve it and had done nothing to earn it, (the very essence of a gift) and in response you insisted on paying for it (even a small part of it) would it still be a gift or would you, in effect, be refusing that gift by insisting on paying for it in some way?
My girlfriend gave me a nice gift for my birthday. After receiving it, I unwrapped the gift, and began to make use of it.

Does the fact that I had to do a little work in unwrapping the gift, mean that it is no longer a gift?
 
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klutedavid

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amariselle

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And rightfully so. The Bible does not teach "me and Jesus" Christianity. It is dangerous to think that one can accept Jesus and at the same time reject his Church (whether you think his Church is Catholic, Protestant, or whatever). The body of Christ is the Church, and Jesus is the head of that body.


The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the one mediator. If you do not believe this, I can provide you will some official documents that state as much.

Jesus allows others to share in his mediation, as "sub-mediators" if you will. One example of this is when you ask a friend or a relative to pray for you. Your friend or a relative prays to God on your behalf, but that does not diminish the unique mediatorship that Jesus has with God.


No. You are just reading into the statements what you want to see. That is not what the Church teaches.


15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.​

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
Dominus Iesus
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63


“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

But if you want to continue believing it, that is cool by me. That is about as much time as I would like to spend on this particular issue.


OK. You believe that we perform necromancy. I am OK with that. I do not feel like spending any more time discussing this particular issue.


It most certainly is the sacrifice of Jesus that saves us. But that does not mean that a person who has put his faith in Jesus Christ today, can go out and rape and murder people a month from today, without falling from grace.

If you carefully study the portion of scripture that you refer to above, concerning "grafting in," you will note that it teaches that one's salvation can be lost.

So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Note that above St. Paul is speaking about those who have been "grafted in" being "cut off".


We agree here.


I don't think I see anything here that I would object to, although I am a bit unclear as to how you would define certain terms.

From a Catholic perspective, a person cannot have 100% mathematical assurance that he will go to heaven. God will decide our eternal fate when we die. But that does not mean that we cannot have confidence that we are saved, and that we are walking around shaking in our boots all of the time.

Concerning sin, we do not believe that every sin breaks the friendship with God that is granted one upon baptism. Mortal sins would break the friendship. The so-called venial sins would not. In simpler terms, if you tell a little white lie, you are OK. If you go out and rape and kill 20 people, you probably want to head to confession ASAP. All sins are not equal.


As an example, you could fall from grace if you were to go outside a month from now, rape and kill 20 people, become an atheist, never repent for your sins, and then kill yourself.

Your child may still always be your child, but that does not mean that he will receive an inheritance from you. I can speak to this fact directly, as my father left me nothing in his will.

True. But people change their minds. Plenty of men who love their wives today will go out and sleep with a prostitute several years from now. Unless you are omnipotent and can see the future, you cannot state for certain where you will be five years from now. Plenty of people who were just like you are ranting atheists at this very moment.


Well, why does St. Peter stated that baptism saves us? That sounds like grace to me.

Jesus confers grace though the Sacraments. For example, the anointing of the sick:

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.​

Jesus does not work exclusively though the sacraments, of course. God also confers grace to Catholics, non-Catholic Christians, and non-Christians outside of the sacraments, by whatever means he pleases. You can be saved, but you are lacking all of the graces that Jesus offers to you.

That's fine. I do not desire to spend any longer on this either. The grace of God, for salvation, offered through faith in Jesus Christ is all I need. I am not saved by anything I do in myself.

As for branches being broken off, Scripture is clear, the Jews were broken off because of their UNBELIEF, not because of their sins or failure to keep the Law. There were many many Jews (especially the religious leaders) who were very zealous for the things of God (Paul, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, was one of them.) Yet, what does Paul say about those things. He counted them all as "dung", our "righteous" works cannot save us. Nor do we need each other TO BE SAVED but rather to strengthen and encourage each other in our shared faith and our salvation.

Jesus wants us to rest in Him and be assured of our salvation because He hasn't failed. It is Satan who seeks to destroy our hope in Christ.

God bless.
 
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amariselle

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My girlfriend gave me a nice gift for my birthday. After receiving it, I unwrapped the gift, and began to make use of it.

Does the fact that I had to do a little work in unwrapping the gift, mean that it is no longer a gift?

So what do we need to "do" to "unwrap" the gift of salvation? And how can we be sure we've ever done enough?
 
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PeaceB

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So what do we need to "do" to "unwrap" the gift of salvation?
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
There is no magical number of "good works" that we need to do. After we are baptized, the only thing that you need to is to remain in Christ, from a strict perspective. Baptized infants who die all go to heaven, even though they have performed no good works whatsoever.

And how can we be sure we've ever done enough?
This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
A more pertinent question is this:
Do I love the Lord my God with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my strength, and with all my mind? And do I love my neighbor as myself?​

Every day try to do those things to the best of your ability, and you can have confidence that God, our merciful and loving father, will have mercy on us at the day of judgment, despite our numerous flaws and imperfections.
 
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PeaceB

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That's fine. I do not desire to spend any longer on this either. The grace of God, for salvation, offered through faith in Jesus Christ is all I need. I am not saved by anything I do in myself.

As for branches being broken off, Scripture is clear, the Jews were broken off because of their UNBELIEF, not because of their sins or failure to keep the Law. There were many many Jews (especially the religious leaders) who were very zealous for the things of God (Paul, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, was one of them.) Yet, what does Paul say about those things. He counted them all as "dung", our "righteous" works cannot save us. Nor do we need each other TO BE SAVED but rather to strengthen and encourage each other in our shared faith and our salvation.

Jesus wants us to rest in Him and be assured of our salvation because He hasn't failed. It is Satan who seeks to destroy our hope in Christ.

God bless.
Thank you. God bless you too!

If you look at Romans 11, as you noted, the "natural branches", the branches that were broken off due to unbelief, are the Jews. The branches that are "grafted in" are the gentiles. But then St. Paul says to those who where "grafted in" (the gentiles): "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."​

St. Paul teaches that the those who were "grafted in" to Christ (the gentiles) will be cut off, just as the Jews were cut off, if they do not continue in his kindness.

If you disagree, how do you interpret "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off" ?
 
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amariselle

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And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​


This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
A more pertinent question is this:
Do I love the Lord my God with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my strength, and with all my mind? And do I love my neighbor as myself?​

Every day try to do those things to the best of your ability, and you can have confidence that God, our merciful and loving father, will have mercy on us at the day of judgment, despite our numerous flaws and imperfections.

Were these verses written to believers (already saved) or to those who were as yet unsaved?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that SALVATION is a gift, whereas DISCIPLESHIP (which comes after salvation) is where our works and obedience come in. And the Bible does teach of heavenly rewards, but salvation is not one of them. We know, from Scripture, that salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done.

Also, our confidence, and our hope of salvation must be in Christ and what He has done, not in ourselves and what we do TO BE SAVED. We do not and cannot save ourselves.

If we read Paul's epistles, fully and in context, I think it's very clear that he knew he was saved, not because of things he did, but because of what Jesus Christ did. Therefore, we also can know, not because of our performance or lifestyle, but because of Jesus, and so we can likewise encourage each other in the faith once delivered to the Saints.

This is why it truly is "good news."
 
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amariselle

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Thank you. God bless you too!

If you look at Romans 11, as you noted, the "natural branches", the branches that were broken off due to unbelief, are the Jews. The branches that are "grafted in" are the gentiles. But then St. Paul says to those who where "grafted in" (the gentiles): "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off."​

St. Paul teaches that the those who were "grafted in" to Christ (the gentiles) will be cut off, just as the Jews were cut off, if they do not continue in his kindness.

If you disagree, how do you interpret "For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off" ?

The answer to that is clear. The Jews were cut off because of their unbelief, Gentiles are grafted in through faith (belief).

So if belief is what gets us grafted in, and therefore saves us, why is it our human effort that keeps us there?

Our own efforts do not and cannot save us, nor can they keep us saved. Only Christ can do that. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Each to their own I guess. I prefer the normal every day mass as I prefer to understand what is going on, the words, and I prefer the priest to be facing the congregation.

I prefer worship of God over fellowship with men (Though worship as a group is very nice).
 
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Landon Caeli

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That's fine. I do not desire to spend any longer on this either. The grace of God, for salvation, offered through faith in Jesus Christ is all I need. I am not saved by anything I do in myself.

As for branches being broken off, Scripture is clear, the Jews were broken off because of their UNBELIEF, not because of their sins or failure to keep the Law. There were many many Jews (especially the religious leaders) who were very zealous for the things of God (Paul, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, was one of them.) Yet, what does Paul say about those things. He counted them all as "dung", our "righteous" works cannot save us. Nor do we need each other TO BE SAVED but rather to strengthen and encourage each other in our shared faith and our salvation.

Jesus wants us to rest in Him and be assured of our salvation because He hasn't failed. It is Satan who seeks to destroy our hope in Christ.

God bless.

I like that. :oldthumbsup:

...I don't agree with it, but it's very nice.
 
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PeaceB

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Were these verses written to believers (already saved) or to those who were as yet unsaved?
From what I recall, the first was written to the unsaved, and the second was written to the saved.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that SALVATION is a gift, whereas DISCIPLESHIP (which comes after salvation) is where our works and obedience come in. And the Bible does teach of heavenly rewards, but salvation is not one of them. We know, from Scripture, that salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done.
Amen. Salvation is most definitely a gift. There is nothing that we can do to deserve it.

As for salvation being a reward for good works and obedience, I cannot convince you of course, but I think there are plenty of verses in Scripture that teach other than what you believe. Here is an example:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
In the above verses, Jesus is not talking about rewards that one might obtain while in heaven. He is talking about "inheriting the Kingdom" and being sent into an "eternal fire".

That is just one example but there are plenty more if you re-read the NT with that idea in view.

Also, our confidence, and our hope of salvation must be in Christ and what He has done, not in ourselves and what we do TO BE SAVED. We do not and cannot save ourselves.
Absolutely. There is nothing that I can do to save myself. The only thing that I can do is to allow God to save me. That comes through allowing God to instill faith in my heart, and allowing the Holy Spirit to perform good works though me.

If we read Paul's epistles, fully and in context, I think it's very clear that he knew he was saved, not because of things he did, but because of what Jesus Christ did. Therefore, we also can know, not because of our performance or lifestyle, but because of Jesus, and so we can likewise encourage each other in the faith once delivered to the Saints.
I believe that he knew that he was going to heaven, if you look at the letters toward the end of his life. Let's take 2 Timothy 4 as an example:

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
You can see that his confidence is based on the fact that he "fought the good fight," "finished the race", and "kept the faith".

But if you look at 1 Corinthians, which was written some 10 years earlier than 2 Timothy, you see a different picture:

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Paul kept the faith up until the point of his death. That is why he has the confidence that you see in 2 Timothy, but which is lacking in 1 Corinthians.

That is my take on the letters, at least.

This is why it truly is "good news."
The good news, at least for me, is that God loves us, sent his son to save us, and desires to share his blessed life with us for all eternity. Sure, we worry about "getting to heaven" or "staying out of hell" and so forth, but the whole point of it all is to have the relationship with God that he desires to have with us. Even though I can get a bit "legalistic" sounding with talk of "mortal sin" and so forth, the main focus is and should be on improving one's relationship with God.

The answer to that is clear. The Jews were cut off because of their unbelief, Gentiles are grafted in through faith (belief).
Absolutely. Gentiles like you and me are grafted in through faith.

The point that I wanted to make with the verse, is that "we too will be cut off" if "we do not continue in his kindness". The "you" that St. Paul refers to in those verses are the very same Gentiles who were grafted in.

The point is that the Jews were cut off for their unbelief, and likewise, the gentiles too can be cut off for their unbelief.

So if belief is what gets us grafted in, and therefore saves us, why is it our human effort that keeps us there?
I would not say that it is our human effort that keeps us in a state of grace, from a Catholic perspective. Rather, it is God's grace (or the Holy Spirit) working within us that keeps us in a state of grace. Our "human work" if you will, consists of allowing God to perform the good works through us that he desires. Thus, St. Augustine writes "Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."

Our own efforts do not an cannot saved us, nor can they keep us saved. Only Christ can do that. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.
As for our initial justification, yes, this is what the Catholic Church teaches:

Paul III Council of Trent-6

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
But generally we would read verses like James 2:24 (and many other verses) to indicate that one must continue to assent to God throughout the course of one's life, in order to receive the final reward of heaven. At a high level, I guess you could say that a person must continue to have faith in Jesus, and continue to hold Jesus as Lord and Savior, until the end of one's life. Anyone who goes out and rapes and murders 20 people, or commits some other mortal sin, has rejected Jesus as Lord and Savior, and thus loses the reward.

I know you disagree, but that's cool. This is the way that I interpret Scripture, but not everyone does, of course.
 
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amariselle

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From what I recall, the first was written to the unsaved, and the second was written to the saved.


Amen. Salvation is most definitely a gift. There is nothing that we can do to deserve it.

As for salvation being a reward for good works and obedience, I cannot convince you of course, but I think there are plenty of verses in Scripture that teach other than what you believe. Here is an example:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
In the above verses, Jesus is not talking about rewards that one might obtain while in heaven. He is talking about "inheriting the Kingdom" and being sent into an "eternal fire".

That is just one example but there are plenty more if you re-read the NT with that idea in view.


Absolutely. There is nothing that I can do to save myself. The only thing that I can do is to allow God to save me. That comes through allowing God to instill faith in my heart, and allowing the Holy Spirit to perform good works though me.


I believe that he knew that he was going to heaven, if you look at the letters toward the end of his life. Let's take 2 Timothy 4 as an example:

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
You can see that his confidence is based on the fact that he "fought the good fight," "finished the race", and "kept the faith".

But if you look at 1 Corinthians, which was written some 10 years earlier than 2 Timothy, you see a different picture:

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Paul kept the faith up until the point of his death. That is why he has the confidence that you see in 2 Timothy, but which is lacking in 1 Corinthians.

That is my take on the letters, at least.


The good news, at least for me, is that God loves us, sent his son to save us, and desires to share his blessed life with us for all eternity. Sure, we worry about "getting to heaven" or "staying out of hell" and so forth, but the whole point of it all is to have the relationship with God that he desires to have with us. Even though I can get a bit "legalistic" sounding with talk of "mortal sin" and so forth, the main focus is and should be on improving one's relationship with God.


Absolutely. Gentiles like you and me are grafted in through faith.

The point that I wanted to make with the verse, is that "we too will be cut off" if "we do not continue in his kindness". The "you" that St. Paul refers to in those verses are the very same Gentiles who were grafted in.

The point is that the Jews were cut off for their unbelief, and likewise, the gentiles too can be cut off for their unbelief.


I would not say that it is our human effort that keeps us in a state of grace, from a Catholic perspective. Rather, it is God's grace (or the Holy Spirit) working within us that keeps us in a state of grace. Our "human work" if you will, consists of allowing God to perform the good works through us that he desires. Thus, St. Augustine writes "Since only grace makes every good merit of ours, and when God crowns our merits, He crowns nothing else but His own gifts."

As for our initial justification, yes, this is what the Catholic Church teaches:

Paul III Council of Trent-6

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
But generally we would read verses like James 2:24 (and many other verses) to indicate that one must continue to assent to God throughout the course of one's life, in order to receive the final reward of heaven. At a high level, I guess you could say that a person must continue to have faith in Jesus, and continue to hold Jesus as Lord and Savior, until the end of one's life. Anyone who goes out and rapes and murders 20 people, or commits some other mortal sin, has rejected Jesus as Lord and Savior, and thus loses the reward.

I know you disagree, but that's cool. This is the way that I interpret Scripture, but not everyone does, of course.

Fair enough. I think we agree on certain things, to be sure, but I truly do believe that Scripture is clear that salvation is not a reward, but a gift, therefore entirely undeserved and unearned, whereas, for those who are saved, there will be rewards in Heaven that are in accordance with how we lived our lives and the works we did after we were saved through faith. These rewards will be given as Christ so chooses, and I don't claim to know how that will play out in its fullness.

Also, for those who have been saved and are His children, there can be earthly consequences for disobedience, because God chastises His children. This does not mean we lose salvation however, because we didn't earn it through good works and obedience, and we cannot keep it through such things. We put our faith and trust in Christ alone to save us. When we do so, we receive the Holy Spirit, and He will guide us into all truth, encouraging us as we hold fast to the faith once delivered to the saints.

God bless you. I've enjoyed our conversation. :)
 
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amariselle

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We put our faith in Christ but we have to do our bit and continue to believe. To continue to be sin free.

Okay, so if we must continue to be "sin free" (stop sinning/never sin again) who has done so? Has anyone actually accomplished this?
 
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PeaceB

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Okay, so if we must continue to be "sin free" (stop sinning/never sin again) who has done so? Has anyone actually accomplished this?
You do not have to be completely sin free. That is impossible (as the Council of Trent defines below).

You must refrain from committing a mortal sin, which causes one to fall from grace.

Paul III Council of Trent-6

Canon 23.
If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or on the contrary, that he can during his whole life avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin, let him be anathema.
 
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amariselle

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You do not have to be completely sin free. That is impossible (as the Council of Trent defines below).

You must refrain from committing a mortal sin, which causes one to fall from grace.

Paul III Council of Trent-6

Canon 23.
If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or on the contrary, that he can during his whole life avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin, let him be anathema.

I was replying to a post by Goatee.

However, this dichotomy of "mortal" and "venial" sins is an entirely new and different issue. I do not see any Biblical baisis for categorizing sins in such a way.

The wages of sin is death (all sin) but the gift of God is eternal life through His Son.

Jesus never put sins into the categories of "venial" and "mortal", instead He made it absolutely clear that ALL sin is mortal, that is, God's standard is perfection, and we've all fallen short of that. (Even the attitudes of our hearts and our thoughts can be muderous or adulterous in nature).

This is why we need the Saviour. Jesus is the ONLY One who has ever lived a perfect, sinless life, thus fulfilling God's righteous standard and requirements.

And I won't get into teachings regarding "the blessed Virgin", that's just a huge subject, which we both know we do not agree on.

As always, God bless.
 
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Albion

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I was replying to a post by Goatee.

However, this dichotomy of "mortal" and "venial" sins is an entirely new and different issue. I do not see any Biblical baisis for categorizing sins in such a way.

Understood. However, it is relevant to the question of this thread ("Catholicism the only legit way to God?").
 
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PeaceB

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I was replying to a post by Goatee.

However, this dichotomy of "mortal" and "venial" sins is an entirely new and different issue. I do not see any Biblical baisis for categorizing sins in such a way.

The wages of sin is death (all sin) but the gift of God is eternal life through His Son.

Jesus never put sins into the categories of "venial" and "mortal", instead He made it absolutely clear that ALL sin is mortal, that is, God's standard is perfection, and we've all fallen short of that. (Even the attitudes of our hearts and our thoughts can be muderous or adulterous in nature).

This is why we need the Saviour. Jesus is the ONLY One who has ever lived a perfect, sinless life, thus fulfilling God's righteous standard and requirements.

And I won't get into teachings regarding "the blessed Virgin", that's just a huge subject, which we both know we do not agree on.

As always, God bless.
Thanks. God bless you too.

There may be other bases for the distinction between mortal and venial sin, but I think that we at least see it here:

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.​
 
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