Catholicism the only legit way to God?

[Goatee]

I do believe that we must continue in a Holy life as much as possible. I do not think that Jesus died so that we didn't have to go through pain.

Jesus did say that we needed to pick up our crosses and follow him. He knew that life would not be a bowl of roses if we followed him.

 

[amariselle]

Thanks. God bless you too.

There may be other bases for the distinction between mortal and venial sin, but I think that we at least see it here:

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.​

Biblically speaking, we know that when we have believed on the Son (which is the will of the Father) we have been born again/born of God. The new creation that we are, cannot and does not sin. There is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. The wrath of God does not remain upon us, because of what Christ has done for us. We have passed from death (being dead in our sins) to life (given to us through the Son).

So, would the "sin that leads to death" not be rejecting the Saviour? After all, it is rejecting Him that leaves a person subject to the wrath of God, because the wages of sin (all sin, which is missing the mark or falling short of God's standard of absolute perfection) is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, in His Son, Jesus.

It seems clear to me (Biblically) that the "sin that leads to death" is rejecting Christ, Who, Scripture is clear, is the ONLY Way to be saved.

Anyway, I do not see how those verses support the Catholic doctrine of "mortal" and "venial" sins. What I do see in Scripture, is that ALL sin is "mortal", and without Christ, we will reap the wages of sin (death).

 

[amariselle]

I do believe that we must continue in a Holy life as much as possible. I do not think that Jesus died so that we didn't have to go through pain.

Jesus did say that we needed to pick up our crosses and follow him. He knew that life would not be a bowl of roses if we followed him.

Absolutely. Picking up our crosses and following Him though pertains to discipleship (our good and reasonable service). Those who are forgiven much, love much. That only comes when we truly understand how much we have been forgiven, and we are able to love and serve God because He sends His Holy Spirit when we call upon Christ, trusting in Him alone.

Apart from Christ we can do nothing, and without faith it is impossible to please God. The Holy life we grow in and live as the Spirit works through us, is not what gets us saved or keeps us saved, but is an outworking and an evidence that we have been saved. (Otherwise our faith is not visible in our lives, and is "dead" as is written in James.) We do need a living faith to witness effectively to others.

Jesus died so that we could have life eternal, life in Him. It is true that living for Him may cost us everything, even our very lives (as it has for many), but we are saved because He gave HIS life for us, and we trust in Him, and believe He really did accomplish what He came to do.

 

[amariselle]

Understood. However, it is relevant to the question of this thread ("Catholicism the only legit way to God?").

Fair enough. What are your thoughts?

 

[Albion]

I don't think that you need to be a Catholic in order to go the heaven, or that the RCC is the only legitimate church. That's what we were asked in the beginning.

However, if anyone else is still pondering the issue, the question of Mortal and Venial sins is important since much of Catholic theology turns on which is which and upon that church's belief that the difference is real and does matter.

 

[Goatee]

I agree that one does not need to be a Catholic to go to Heaven.

 

[amariselle]

I don't think that you need to be a Catholic in order to go the heaven, or that the RCC is the only legitimate church. That's what we were asked in the beginning.

However, if anyone else is still pondering the issue, the question of Mortal and Venial sins is important since much of Catholic theology turns on which is which and upon that church's belief that the difference is real and does matter.

Yes, so as with all things, they must be tested. We cannot just accept teachings without question. Obviously there are other doctrines that are at issue at well, as they relate to "mortal" and "venial" sins. Since there is apparently two different categories of sin (and therefore not all sin is the same) they must be dealt with in different ways, right?

To me, this is adding confusion and requires more teachings to try to clear up that confusion. The Bible seems pretty clear: the wages of sin is death." (All sin is mortal). I don't see a list of particular sins given here or elsewhere. God's standard is absolute perfection, as the Law of God makes clear, and Jesus emphasized by teaching that hate is murder and lust is adultery.

ALL have fallen short. Without Christ, the wrath of God remains upon us, and we remain dead in our sins. This is why we must be born again.

Anyway, I've thought a decent amount about this supposed dichotomy of sins. There's no doubt that it makes sense in an earthly context (that is, no one would doubt that murder is worse than telling a lie), the question is, does it make sense in light of the Bible and what it tells us about sin.

I just see no support for categorizing sin in this manner in Scripture.

 

[PeaceB]

Biblically speaking, we know that when we have believed on the Son (which is the will of the Father) we have been born again/born of God.

Well, the Bible appears to indicate that we are born again when we are baptized.

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
​

I do not think you see the word "born again" mentioned in Scripture with respect to belief, but please correct me if I am wrong.

The new creation that we are, cannot and does not sin. There is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. The wrath of God does not remain upon us, because of what Christ has done for us. We have passed from death (being dead in our sins) to life (given to us through the Son).

Sure, but just because you are in Christ today, does not mean that you will be in Christ tomorrow. If you go out and murder 20 people tomorrow, and become an atheist, would you remain in Christ?

So, would the "sin that leads to death" not be rejecting the Saviour? After all, it is rejecting Him that leaves a person subject to the wrath of God, because the wages of sin (all sin, which is missing the mark or falling short of God's standard of absolute perfection) is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, in His Son, Jesus. It seems clear to me (Biblically) that the "sin that leads to death" is rejecting Christ, Who, Scripture is clear, is the ONLY Way to be saved.

Absolutely. Rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior (for example, becoming an atheist) would be a sin that leads to death. But we also reject Jesus as Lord and Savior when we commit other mortal sins.

Anyway, I do not see how those verses support the Catholic doctrine of "mortal" and "venial" sins. What I do see in Scripture, is that ALL sin is "mortal", and without Christ, we will reap the wages of sin (death).

People who are baptized are no longer children of wrath, but become children of God. God, like any merciful and loving father, treats his children with grace. This means that we do not have to be perfect. God does not treat his children like a judge who demands strict adherence to every letter of the law. A merciful and loving father would not send one of his children to eternal fire for telling a little white lie.

But just because we are children of God, does not mean that we can do any and all sins, and expect to receive our inheritance from our father. A child can lose his inheritance. If your son has a test, studies hard, and gets say a C+ on the exam, you are going to still take him out to a baseball game, because you are a loving parent. You are not going to say, "Well, you did not get a 100% so I am putting you on punishment". On the other hand, if your son completely goofs off and says "Screw that test, I do not even care that my mum asked me to study for it" and does not even try at all and gets an F, you are not going to take him to the baseball game, even though he is your son and you love him. You are going to put him on punishment. This is kind of the way that it works for people who have been baptized into Christ. You do not have to be perfect, but nor can you do anything and everything.

That is my analogy, at least. I would need to search for some specific Scripture to back it up.

If you take a re-read through the New Testament, you will see verses in almost every book that warn against falling from grace, because of sin. I have provided a few already I think in this thread, but here are a few more for your consideration:

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
​

Not above that St. Paul refers to "we" (which includes himself, a believer). Note also that that the people he refers to have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, also indicating that they are saved. Paul seems to teach that if these people go on sinning deliberately, Jesus's sacrifice on the cross will not apply to them.

. . .​

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.​

 

[Goatee]

I don't like the idea of once saved always saved as we still have to carry our crosses. We still have to follow the commandments. We are still sinners who need to repent when we fall.

Is it not more dangerous for a person who has been saved but yet then falls continuously? (Me)

 

[PeaceB]

To me, this is adding confusion and requires more teachings to try to clear up that confusion. The Bible seems pretty clear: the wages of sin is death." (All sin is mortal). I don't see a list of particular sins given here or elsewhere. God's standard is absolute perfection, as the Law of God makes clear, and Jesus emphasized by teaching that hate is murder and lust is adultery.

Sure, but I just provided you with Scripture that literally states "there is sin that does not lead to death".

I think you would need to conclude that the "death" in that verse refers to physical death and not spiritual death. I do not think that is warranted from the context, since in the paragraph that precedes it the author refers to "eternal life".

I think that this passage of Scripture is most supportive of your view:

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.​

 

[amariselle]

I don't like the idea of once saved always saved as we still have to carry our crosses. We still have to follow the commandments. We are still sinners who need to repent when we fall.

Is it not more dangerous for a person who has been saved but yet then falls continuously? (Me)

See, I used to believe that, and it kept me in utter despair for years. I echo Paul, when he wrote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." - Romans 7:14-25

As Christians, believers who have been born again, made new creations in Christ, we see the conflict between the "inward man" and our flesh (our mortal bodies that will perish, unless Jesus returns before we die and we receive our new, incorruptible bodies, as all who are saved one day will). But though the Spirit wars against the flesh (this body of death, the Spirit is without sin).

We know that the Law is the strength of sin, and the Law is also our "schoolmaster", convicting us of sin, silencing us before God, so that we know, without a doubt what God's standard is (absolute perfection) and that since we have not and cannot meet that standard, we need our Saviour who has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law, without fail. His sacrifice on our behalf, as the sinless, spotless Lamb of God, is sufficient to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We cannot add to or take away from that. It is finished.

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 15: 56-57

Our victory over sin is through Jesus, not through our own attempts to be sinless and perfectly obedient to God's righteous standards (we will never get there in this life).

It's either grace or works, it cannot be both. Adding works in any way (for salvation) cancels grace.

After we are saved, then we can be His disciples. (And so we should be).

 

[amariselle]

Well, the Bible appears to indicate that we are born again when we are baptized.

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
​

I do not think you see the word "born again" mentioned in Scripture with respect to belief, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Read in context, it seems clear that in those verses Jesus in comparing our physical birth to the necessity of our Spiritual re-birth (being born again). This Spiritual birth is a work of God, which happens when we believe, and we cannot do it for ourselves. As Jesus says:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So, they are not mixed together, but two separate things entirely.

I have understood His reference to "water" to be that of physical birth, not in regard to water baptism, as in these verses He is clearly contrasting Spiritual birth with physical birth, there is no clear mention of water baptism (or as it's sometimes referred to in Scripture, "the baptism of John).

That's what I understand from the context in any case.

Sure, but just because you are in Christ today, does not mean that you will be in Christ tomorrow. If you go out and murder 20 people tomorrow, and become an atheist, would you remain in Christ?

Well, first of all, I do not believe that anyone who truly understands just how much they have been forgiven, who truly comprehends, even a little bit, the amazing grace and mercy of God, would ever just go out and murder 20 people and become an atheist. Grace does not give sin its power, Scripture is clear that it is the Law that does that. When we understand the freedom we have in Christ who fulfilled the Law, our first reaction would not be to just go out an abuse that freedom. (At least I have never heard of such a thing) And the Bible says, he who has been forgiven much, loves much).

I will also say though, I believe Scripture is clear, when we believe, we are born again, pass from death to life, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption. The Bible also says, that even if we are faithless, he abides faithful and cannot deny Himself.

Jesus paid the price of sin on our behalf. He is our Great High Priest and he ever lives to make intercession for us. He is our Mediator. When we believe, we stand in HIS righteousness, and God will not deny His Son.

Christ who began this good work in us, will bring it to completion. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He will never leave us or forsake us.

So, I do not believe we can sin away the blood of Christ. We don't get ourselves saved, so how can we keep ourselves saved?

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16

Absolutely. Rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior (for example, becoming an atheist) would be a sin that leads to death. But we also reject Jesus as Lord and Savior when we commit other mortal sins.

I don't agree with the mortal sin part. As I said, I think the Bible is pretty clear that ALL sin is "mortal" sin, as the wages of sin is death. I also do not believe that if we have believed on Christ and been born again that we are unborn every time we mess up. I used to believe that though, and I was in complete hopelessness and despair for years. Rather than looking to the Saviour, my eyes were constantly on myself and how good I was doing. I never had assurance, not even for a moment, because I believed that as soon as I made a mistake again, that was it, once again I had "lost" my salvation.

This belief also began to bring me to a point where I questioned even confessing my sins anymore. Ultimately, I thought, how many times is God going to forgive me and re-save me when He knows I'll sin again?

This is what happens when we make salvation about US and what WE do or don't do.

People who are baptized are no longer children of wrath, but become children of God. God, like any merciful and loving father, treats his children with grace. This means that we do not have to be perfect. God does not treat his children like a judge who demands strict adherence to every letter of the law. A merciful and loving father would not send one of his children to eternal fire for telling a little white lie.

But just because we are children of God, does not mean that we can do any and all sins, and expect to receive our inheritance from our father. A child can lose his inheritance. If your son has a test, studies hard, and gets say a C+ on the exam, you are going to still take him out to a baseball game, because you are a loving parent. You are not going to say, "Well, you did not get a 100% so I am putting you on punishment". On the other hand, if your son completely goofs off and says "Screw that test, I do not even care that my mum asked me to study for it" and does not even try at all and gets an F, you are not going to take him to the baseball game, even though he is your son and you love him. You are going to put him on punishment. This is kind of the way that it works for people who have been baptized into Christ. You do not have to be perfect, but nor can you do anything and everything.

That is my analogy, at least. I would need to search for some specific Scripture to back it up.

If you take a re-read through the New Testament, you will see verses in almost every book that warn against falling from grace, because of sin. I have provided a few already I think in this thread, but here are a few more for your consideration:

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
​

Not above that St. Paul refers to "we" (which includes himself, a believer). Note also that that the people he refers to have been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, also indicating that they are saved. Paul seems to teach that if these people go on sinning deliberately, Jesus's sacrifice on the cross will not apply to them.

See, to me, the above verses are pretty clear in context. We "trample the Son of God underfoot" and "profane the blood of the covenant" when we claim it is not enough to save us. When we claim grace through faith in what He has done is not enough. When we try to add our self-righteousness and our works to Christ's finished work. When we therefore say, in effect, no thank you Jesus, what you did was great, but surely I must add to it.

. . .​

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.​

Absolutely. But how can we walk by the Spirit if we haven't even received the Spirit?

The Spirit comes to us when we have turned to Christ and believed on Him. Before that, we could do many moral and righteous things, at least outwardly, but not having been born again, we would be like the Pharisees and other religious leaders, "whitewashed tombs."

That's what I firmly believe the Bible teaches in any case. And it is also the only way I have ever had peace, keeping my eyes on Christ alone, my faith and hope for salvation in Christ alone.

 

[Goatee]

See, I used to believe that, and it kept me in utter despair for years. I echo Paul, when he wrote:

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." - Romans 7:14-25

As Christians, believers who have been born again, made new creations in Christ, we see the conflict between the "inward man" and our flesh (our mortal bodies that will perish, unless Jesus returns before we die and we receive our new, incorruptible bodies, as all who are saved one day will). But though the Spirit wars against the flesh (this body of death, the Spirit is without sin).

We know that the Law is the strength of sin, and the Law is also our "schoolmaster", convicting us of sin, silencing us before God, so that we know, without a doubt what God's standard is (absolute perfection) and that since we have not and cannot meet that standard, we need our Saviour who has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law, without fail. His sacrifice on our behalf, as the sinless, spotless Lamb of God, is sufficient to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We cannot add to or take away from that. It is finished.

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 15: 56-57

Our victory over sin is through Jesus, not through our own attempts to be sinless and perfectly obedient to God's righteous standards (we will never get there in this life).

It's either grace or works, it cannot be both. Adding works in any way (for salvation) cancels grace.

After we are saved, then we can be His disciples. (And so we should be).

But, we are responsible for our sins. We can either choose to sin or not. Jesus died to save us from our sins. He gave us a way for repentance. He knew we would still sin, He knew we are weak.

We can turn to Jesus and ask for absolution. We do that through our priests. Just like Jesus told the Apostles that whoever sins they forgive are forgiven.

Jesus gave us the priesthood.

He wants us to turn to Him for forgiveness.

Can you murder and think nothing of it thinking that it doesn't matter as Jesus has already forgiven you? To think like that is to be deceived.

We have to repent when we sin. We have to turn to Jesus once more.

How many times does God forgive? 70 x 7 (my memory might be wrong on the exact number from the Bible).

 

[Goatee]

Once Saved, Always Saved? | Catholic Answers

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."

 

[amariselle]

But, we are responsible for our sins. We can either choose to sin or not. Jesus died to save us from our sins. He gave us a way for repentance. He knew we would still sin, He knew we are weak.

We can turn to Jesus and ask for absolution. We do that through our priests. Just like Jesus told the Apostles that whoever sins they forgive are forgiven.

Jesus gave us the priesthood.

He wants us to turn to Him for forgiveness.

Can you murder and think nothing of it thinking that it doesn't matter as Jesus has already forgiven you? To think like that is to be deceived.

We have to repent when we sin. We have to turn to Jesus once more.

How many times does God forgive? 70 x 7 (my memory might be wrong on the exact number from the Bible).

In other words then, it's never finished.

This just creates a never-ending, hopeless cycle. I can agree with being accountable to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ so that we can encourage and be encouraged in our faith, but we've already been saved by Christ alone, and THEN we can do so. We are not on a hamster wheel of endless hopelessness. We are not "un-saved" or unborn Spiritually every time we mess up, because He abides faithful, even when we are faithless and He cannot deny Himself.

As for thinking nothing of murder? Why would that ever be a thought for someone who truly understands the grace (unmerited favour) of God and how much they've been forgiven. I've never heard of such a thing in any case, nor can I conceive of anyone who truly rests in the finished work of Christ, receiving assurance of salvation in Him and the wonderful peace and joy He offers, then turning around and thinking nothing of murdering someone. Why would someone's first thought, on truly understanding and receiving, through faith the grace of God in our salvation, be to go and abuse that grace in such a horrible way?

Regardless, however, even if we ARE afraid someone will abuse their freedom in Christ and the grace of God, that does not give us the right to change/distort the Gospel by adding works in an effort to somehow safeguard it. Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. Christ by Himself purged our sins, and He ever lives to make intercession for us. He is our One and Only Mediator and Great High Priest.

He ALONE saves us, completely. He did not fail and He is faithful to His promise to never leave us or forsake us.

God bless.

 

[Goatee]

In other words then, it's never finished.

This just creates a never-ending, hopeless cycle. I can agree with being accountable to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ so that we can encourage and be encouraged in our faith, but we've already been saved by Christ alone, and THEN we can do so. We are not on a hamster wheel of endless hopelessness. We are not "un-saved" or unborn Spiritually every time we mess up, because He abides faithful, even when we are faithless and He cannot deny Himself.

As for thinking nothing of murder? Why would that ever be a thought for someone who truly understands the grace (unmerited favour) of God and how much they've been forgiven. I've never heard of such a thing in any case, nor can I conceive of anyone who truly rests in the finished work of Christ, receiving assurance of salvation in Him and the wonderful peace and joy He offers, then turning around and thinking nothing of murdering someone. Why would someone's first thought, on truly understanding and receiving, through faith the grace of God in our salvation, be to go and abuse that grace in such a horrible way?

Regardless, however, even if we ARE afraid someone will abuse their freedom in Christ and the grace of God, that does not give us the right to change/distort the Gospel by adding works in an effort to somehow safeguard it. Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. Christ by Himself purged our sins, and He ever lives to make intercession for us. He is our One and Only Mediator and Great High Priest.

He ALONE saves us, completely. He did not fail and He is faithful to His promise to never leave us or forsake us.

God bless.

Truth is in post 74........

 

[amariselle]

Once Saved, Always Saved? | Catholic Answers

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."

The important thing is to read the verses in context, and also understanding who the original audience/hearers/recipients were.

In all of Paul's letters, he is writing to believers, already saved. But as you have brought up Galatians 5, I encourage you to go read it again. It is absolutely clear that if you do "fall from grace", it's because you are adding works to salvation (i.e the Law).

Also, read why Paul says the Jews have been "cut off" (because of their UNBELIEF) not because they outsinned the sacrifice of Jesus.

Also, Biblically, would not continuing in God's love and kindness be remaining and resting in His grace (unmerited favour)? The love and kindness of God is ultimately and fully revealed in His Son.

If a person rejects Christ, the only Way, then, no, they will not be saved. But Scripture has much to say about our security in Christ, how nothing and no one can snatch us out of His hand or separate us from His love. How we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. How He will bring to completion the good work He began in us, How He is he Author and Finisher of our faith.

Anyway, as I said, I've been caught up in the hopelessness of believing that every time I make the slightest mistake I am unsaved all over again and if I don't confess ALL my sins then I will not be saved, because I am continually passing from death to life, to death to life, to death to life, and on and on and on.

No assurance, no peace, no hope. I've felt sick and terrified, truly believing that if I failed to confess it all sufficiently that I was damned to Hell for all eternity. That if Christ should return at that moment, because I had sinned, I was done.

The problem? I was trusting in myself and my own efforts, not in Christ alone. Now I know that it's not about me. HE has saved me by what HE has done for me.

Now I have the peace, the assurance and the joy He promises to all who believe and trust Him. Now, I desire to walk in His ways and be His disciple, as the Spirit guides and strengthens me.

God bless.

 

[PeaceB]

Read in context, it seems clear that in those verses Jesus in comparing our physical birth to the necessity of our Spiritual re-birth (being born again). This Spiritual birth is a work of God, which happens when we believe, and we cannot do it for ourselves. As Jesus says:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So, they are not mixed together, but two separate things entirely.

I have understood His reference to "water" to be that of physical birth, not in regard to water baptism, as in these verses He is clearly contrasting Spiritual birth with physical birth, there is no clear mention of water baptism (or as it's sometimes referred to in Scripture, "the baptism of John).

That's what I understand from the context in any case.

That's cool. Here are some Scriptures for you to consider.

Some 15 verses later, in the same Chapter of John:

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.)
​

1 Peter 3:

After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.​

Well, first of all, I do not believe that anyone who truly understands just how much they have been forgiven, who truly comprehends, even a little bit, the amazing grace and mercy of God, would ever just go out and murder 20 people and become an atheist. Grace does not give sin its power, Scripture is clear that it is the Law that does that. When we understand the freedom we have in Christ who fulfilled the Law, our first reaction would not be to just go out an abuse that freedom. (At least I have never heard of such a thing) And the Bible says, he who has been forgiven much, loves much).

David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then killed her husband. But before and after that he was a man after God's own heart. So it seems to me that people who truly love the Lord are still capable of doing very heinous things.

I will also say though, I believe Scripture is clear, when we believe, we are born again, pass from death to life, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption. The Bible also says, that even if we are faithless, he abides faithful and cannot deny Himself.

Jesus paid the price of sin on our behalf. He is our Great High Priest and he ever lives to make intercession for us. He is our Mediator. When we believe, we stand in HIS righteousness, and God will not deny His Son.

Christ who began this good work in us, will bring it to completion. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He will never leave us or forsake us.

So, I do not believe we can sin away the blood of Christ. We don't get ourselves saved, so how can we keep ourselves saved?

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16

I don't agree with the mortal sin part. As I said, I think the Bible is pretty clear that ALL sin is "mortal" sin, as the wages of sin is death. I also do not believe that if we have believed on Christ and been born again that we are unborn every time we mess up. I used to believe that though, and I was in complete hopelessness and despair for years. Rather than looking to the Saviour, my eyes were constantly on myself and how good I was doing. I never had assurance, not even for a moment, because I believed that as soon as I made a mistake again, that was it, once again I had "lost" my salvation.

This belief also began to bring me to a point where I questioned even confessing my sins anymore. Ultimately, I thought, how many times is God going to forgive me and re-save me when He knows I'll sin again?

This is what happens when we make salvation about US and what WE do or don't do.

It sounds a bit like you were suffering from what we would call scrupulosity, or religious OCD. I went through a short period like that once, but have come to understand that God does not tire of forgiving us. If we repent of our sins and turn back to him, he will forgive us because he is a merciful and loving father.

See, to me, the above verses are pretty clear in context. We "trample the Son of God underfoot" and "profane the blood of the covenant" when we claim it is not enough to save us. When we claim grace through faith in what He has done is not enough. When we try to add our self-righteousness and our works to Christ's finished work. When we therefore say, in effect, no thank you Jesus, what you did was great, but surely I must add to it.

The immediate context does not seem to say anything about people claiming that it is not enough to save us. The immediate context is "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." I think the better interpretation is that it is the deliberate sinning that tramples the son of God underfoot and that profanes the blood of the covenant, since those are the things that immediately precede the text in question.

Absolutely. But how can we walk by the Spirit if we haven't even received the Spirit?

The Spirit comes to us when we have turned to Christ and believed on Him. Before that, we could do many moral and righteous things, at least outwardly, but not having been born again, we would be like the Pharisees and other religious leaders, "whitewashed tombs."

Absolutely.

That's what I firmly believe the Bible teaches in any case. And it is also the only way I have ever had peace, keeping my eyes on Christ alone, my faith and hope for salvation in Christ alone.

Our hope for salvation is most definitely in Christ alone. Here are some Scriptures for your consideration though.

Revelation

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

. . .​

To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

. . .
​

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

​

Romans 2

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

​

The next time I make a read though the New Testament, I'll keep a look out for the various things you mentioned during our conversation.

Peace

 

[amariselle]

That's cool. Here are some Scriptures for you to consider.

Some 15 verses later, in the same Chapter of John:

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.)
​

1 Peter 3:

After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.​

David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then killed her husband. But before and after that he was a man after God's own heart. So it seems to me that people who truly love the Lord are still capable of doing very heinous things.


It sounds a bit like you were suffering from what we would call scrupulosity, or religious OCD. I went through a short period like that once, but have come to understand that God does not tire of forgiving us. If we repent of our sins and turn back to him, he will forgive us because he is a merciful and loving father.


The immediate context does not seem to say anything about people claiming that it is not enough to save us. The immediate context is "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." I think the better interpretation is that it is the deliberate sinning that tramples the son of God underfoot and that profanes the blood of the covenant, since those are the things that immediately precede the text in question.


Absolutely.


Our hope for salvation is most definitely in Christ alone. Here are some Scriptures for your consideration though.

Revelation

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

. . .​

To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

. . .
​

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

​

Romans 2

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

​

The next time I make a read though the New Testament, I'll keep a look out for the various things you mentioned during our conversation.

Peace

Thank you again for the conversation.

Blessings

 

[Goatee]

What about Judas?

He was an Apostle. Yet he sinned MASSIVELY!