Catholicism the only legit way to God?

[Landon Caeli]

Even more precise, one ought to worship Latin style, with father leading worship with his back to the congregation, facing the Holy Eucharist -leading the faithful in *proper* worship.

 

[PeaceB]

Catholicism teaches a works based "salvation" (penance, purgatory, indulgences, sacraments etc.) Catholic doctrine also encourages praying to the dead (Mary and the saints) which is necromancy, as well as revering/even worshipping relics (idolatry).

Praying to Dead Folks | Catholic Answers

So no, Biblically, the Catholic Church and its doctrines are not the way to God. These things actually keep people from God and from having a living and personal relationship with the Saviour, Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church actually teaches that it is dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus, therefore one must go through the Catholic Church to do so.

Here is what Pope Francis actually said.​

Evangelii Gaudium : Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013) | Francis

3. I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”.[1] The Lord does not disappoint those who take this risk; whenever we take a step towards Jesus, we come to realize that he is already there, waiting for us with open arms. Now is the time to say to Jesus: “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. How good it feels to come back to him whenever we are lost! Let me say this once more: God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy. Christ, who told us to forgive one another “seventy times seven” (Mt 18:22) has given us his example: he has forgiven us seventy times seven. Time and time again he bears us on his shoulders. No one can strip us of the dignity bestowed upon us by this boundless and unfailing love. With a tenderness which never disappoints, but is always capable of restoring our joy, he makes it possible for us to lift up our heads and to start anew. Let us not flee from the resurrection of Jesus, let us never give up, come what will. May nothing inspire more than his life, which impels us onwards!​

The Bible is clear, however, that there is ONE Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ, not the Pope, not the priests, not the saints and not Mary.

Well by that logic, I guess you had better not ask a friend or a family member to pray for you.

And salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. If we add works, it is no more grace.

Here is what Scripture says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

. . .

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.​

 

[amariselle]

Praying to Dead Folks | Catholic Answers

Here is what Pope Francis actually said.​

Evangelii Gaudium : Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013) | Francis

3. I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”.[1] The Lord does not disappoint those who take this risk; whenever we take a step towards Jesus, we come to realize that he is already there, waiting for us with open arms. Now is the time to say to Jesus: “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. How good it feels to come back to him whenever we are lost! Let me say this once more: God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy. Christ, who told us to forgive one another “seventy times seven” (Mt 18:22) has given us his example: he has forgiven us seventy times seven. Time and time again he bears us on his shoulders. No one can strip us of the dignity bestowed upon us by this boundless and unfailing love. With a tenderness which never disappoints, but is always capable of restoring our joy, he makes it possible for us to lift up our heads and to start anew. Let us not flee from the resurrection of Jesus, let us never give up, come what will. May nothing inspire more than his life, which impels us onwards!​

​

He did actually also say it is "dangerous" to have a "personal relationship" with Christ. He has said many other concerning things about Jesus as well, but that's perhaps a topic for another thread.

Well by that logic, I guess you had better not ask a friend or a family member to pray for you.

Asking a living person to pray for you has no comparison to asking someone who has died to pray for you. Praying to/petitioning the dead is necromancy and is forbidden in Scripture.

Here is what Scripture says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

. . .

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.​

We are justified in the sight of other people by our works. If we have no works others cannot see our faith, or the outworkings of it, and therefore, it is "dead." James was written to believers, already saved, who were not living out that saving faith in their lives. James is not saying that those works justify us to God, because as Scripture is clear, by the works of the Law (obedience to ALL God's commands) shall no flesh be justified. And grace is no more grace once you add works.

God's standard for salvation is absolute perfection, which is why we need Christ's righteousness, which we receive by grace through faith in the Son and the Gospel. Then we pass from death to life, being born again, made new creations, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, when Christ who began this good work in us will bring it to completion. And even when we are "faithless" He abides faithful and cannot deny Himself. As Jesus promised, He will never leave us or forsake us.

We don't get ourself saved by our good works or righteousness which is as filthy rags, and we cannot keep ourself saved by our good works. Like Abraham, our FAITH is counted as righteousness.

And once we are saved and born again, we will grow in grace and learn to walk in His ways as His dearly beloved children.

Also, I am glad you don't seem to believe that on must go through the Catholic Church and its doctrines or hiearchy to have relationship with Christ.

 

[Landon Caeli]

 

[PeaceB]

All throughout its history and its doctrines. Pope Francis recently reiterated this as well.

I've done (and continue to do) a lot of research regarding the Catholic Church, its history and its doctrines. The reason I have done so is primarily because my mother grew up Catholic and her parents (my grandparents) remained Catholic for their entire lives.

There was also a point, years ago, that I considered becoming Catholic.

What has become absolutely clear to me, is that according to Catholic history/tradition/doctrine, a person must go through the Church and all its doctrines, traditions and ordinances in order to have and maintain a relationship with Christ. As such, the sacraments and all the rituals and instructions must be faithfully observed. Furthermore, according to Catholic teaching, because Protestants/non-Catholics do not have the true sacraments and the unbroken line of "apostolic sucession" from Peter to the current Pope, Francis, they are not in true fellowship/relationship with Christ.

Therefore, in order to be in true relationship with Christ, according to Catholic doctrine/tradition, one must go through the Catholic Church.

This is what the official Catholic stance is on he matter, though surely not all Catholics agree.

Well. To be a bit more precise:

Dominus Iesus

16. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ's salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50


Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church's integrity — will never be lacking.52

The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

 

[amariselle]

Well. To be a bit more precise:

Dominus Iesus

16. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ's salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”.49 This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).50


Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”.51 Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church's integrity — will never be lacking.52

The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

All true believers in Christ are His Church. If someone has believed on the Son (and therefore done the will of the Father) they have been born again, passed from death to life and are saved.

Let us not be removed from the "simplicity" that is in Christ. We should not be shaken in faith or chase after every wind of doctrine. Our salvation is not a mystery, nor is it hidden in secret or convoluted doctrines, Jesus has revealed to us the Way of salvation. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

All who believe the true Gospel, are His and are saved.

 

[PeaceB]

​

He did actually also say it is "dangerous" to have a "personal relationship" with Christ. He has said many other concerning things about Jesus as well, but that's perhaps a topic for another thread.

Here is exactly what he said in the speech:

General Audience of 25 June 2014 | Francis

1. We are not isolated and we are not Christians on an individual basis, each one on his or her own, no, our Christian identity is to belong! We are Christians because we belong to the Church. It is like a last name: if the first name is “I am Christian”, the last name is “I belong to the Church”. It is so beautiful to observe how this belonging is also expressed in the name God gives to himself. In answer to Moses in that wonderful episode of the “burning bush”, he defines himself as the God of the fathers (cf. Ex 3:15). He doesn’t say: I am the Omnipotent One..., no: I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. In this way He reveals himself as the God who made an alliance with our fathers and remains ever faithful to his pact, and calls us to enter into this relationship which precedes us. God’s relationship with his people precedes us all, it comes from that time.

2. In this sense, one’s thought goes in the first place, with gratitude, to those who went before us and who welcomed us into the Church. No one becomes Christian on his or her own! Is that clear? No one becomes Christian by him- or herself. Christians are not made in a laboratory. A Christian is part of a people who comes from afar. The Christian belongs to a people called the Church and this Church is what makes him or her Christian, on the day of Baptism, and then in the course of catechesis, and so on. But no one, no one becomes Christian on his or her own. If we believe, if we know how to pray, if we acknowledge the Lord and can listen to his Word, if we feel him close to us and recognize him in our brothers and sisters, it is because others, before us, lived the faith and then transmitted it to us. We have received the faith from our fathers, from our ancestors, and they have instructed us in it. If we think about it carefully, who knows how many beloved faces pass before our eyes at this moment: it could be the face of our parents who requested our Baptism; that of our grandparents or of some family member who taught us how to make the sign of the Cross and to recite our first prayers. I always remember the face of the nun who taught me the Catechism, but she always comes to mind — she is in Heaven for sure, because she was a holy woman — I always remember her and give thanks to God for this sister. Or it could be the face of the parish priest, of another priest or a sister or a catechist, who transmitted the contents of the faith to us and helped us to grow as Christians.... So, this is the Church: one great family, where we are welcomed and learn to live as believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus.

3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no “do it yourself”, there are no “free agents”. How many times did Pope Benedict “describe the Church as an ecclesial ‘we’”! At times one hears someone say: “I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don’t care about the Church...”. How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies. It is true that walking together is challenging, and at times can be tiring: it can happen that some brother or some sister creates difficulties, or shocks us.... But the Lord entrusted his message of salvation to a few human beings, to us all, to a few witnesses; and it is in our brothers and in our sisters, with their gifts and limitations, that he comes to meet us and make himself known. And this is what it means to belong to the Church. Remember this well: to be Christian means belonging to the Church. The first name is “Christian”, the last name is “belonging to the Church”.

Asking a living person to pray for you has no comparison to asking someone who has died to pray for you. Praying to/petitioning the dead is necromancy and is forbidden in Scripture.

Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.​

Did Jesus violate Scripture when he spoke with Moses and Elijah?

We are justified in the sight of other people by our works. If we have no works others cannot see our faith, or the outworkings of it, and therefore, it is "dead." James was written to believers, already saved, who were not living out that saving faith in their lives. James is not saying that those works justify us to God, because as Scripture is clear, by the works of the Law (obedience to ALL God's commands) shall no flesh be justified. And grace is no more grace once you add works.

That does not make sense. Neither Abraham nor Rahab's stories in the Bible had anything to do with justifying them in the sight of other people. God said "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." Abraham did not go up on the mountain to demonstrate to other people that he had faith in God. There were no other people even on the mountain.

And although nobody is justified by the Mosiac law, it does not logically follow that one can therefore commit any and all sins and not fall from grace.

God's standard for salvation is absolute perfection, which is why we need Christ's righteousness, which we receive by grace through faith in the Son and the Gospel. Then we pass from death to life, being born again, made new creations, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, when Christ who began this good work in us will bring it to completion. And even when we are "faithless" He abides faithful and cannot deny Himself. As Jesus promised, He will never leave us or forsake us.

No, the Bible does not teach that a person must be absolutely perfect in order to be saved. The Bible teaches that one should put his faith in Jesus Christ, and be baptized.

Nor does the Bible teach that a person receives Christ's own personal righteousness. Scripture does not teach the Protestant doctrine of double-imputation. A baptized person receives righteousness from Christ, but he is not made as righteousness as Christ himself. If you were as righteousness as Christ himself, then you should also sit at the right hand of the Father. But you will not, because you are not.

And Jesus does not forsake us. You forsake him, when you commit a mortal sin.

We don't get ourself saved by our good works or righteousness which is as filthy rags, and we cannot keep ourself saved by our good works. Like Abraham, our FAITH is counted as righteousness.

And once we are saved and born again, we will grow in grace and learn to walk in His ways as His dearly beloved children.

Or you may go out and murder and rape 10 people a month from now, or become an atheist and reject God entirely. But of course, if you go out and do these things, that will then mean that "you were never really saved in the first place."

Also, I am glad you don't seem to believe that on must go through the Catholic Church and its doctrines or hiearchy to have relationship with Christ.

No, but your relationship with Jesus could improve if you entered the Catholic Church and received the graces that Jesus offers to you through the Sacraments.

 

[PeaceB]

All true believers in Christ are His Church. If someone has believed on the Son (and therefore done the will of the Father) they have been born again, passed from death to life and are saved.

No, a person is born again when he is baptized.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.​

Let us not be removed from the "simplicity" that is in Christ. We should not be shaken in faith or chase after every wind of doctrine. Our salvation is not a mystery, nor is it hidden in secret or convoluted doctrines, Jesus has revealed to us the Way of salvation. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Repent of your sins, put your faith in Jesus Christ, and get baptized. If you commit a mortal sin, repent of your sins, put your faith in Jesus Christ, and go to Confession.

That sounds pretty simple to me.

All who believe the true Gospel, are His and are saved.

Amen! But Jesus also said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

 

[Goatee]

All throughout its history and its doctrines. Pope Francis recently reiterated this as well.

I've done (and continue to do) a lot of research regarding the Catholic Church, its history and its doctrines. The reason I have done so is primarily because my mother grew up Catholic and her parents (my grandparents) remained Catholic for their entire lives.

There was also a point, years ago, that I considered becoming Catholic.

What has become absolutely clear to me, is that according to Catholic history/tradition/doctrine, a person must go through the Church and all its doctrines, traditions and ordinances in order to have and maintain a relationship with Christ. As such, the sacraments and all the rituals and instructions must be faithfully observed. Furthermore, according to Catholic teaching, because Protestants/non-Catholics do not have the true sacraments and the unbroken line of "apostolic sucession" from Peter to the current Pope, Francis, they are not in true fellowship/relationship with Christ.

Therefore, in order to be in true relationship with Christ, according to Catholic doctrine/tradition, one must go through the Catholic Church.

This is what the official Catholic stance is on he matter, though surely not all Catholics agree.

I think you need to point to some proof that says that the church says it's dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

I have been a Catholic for 53 years and have never heard that.

 

[Goatee]

Even more precise, one ought to worship Latin style, with father leading worship with his back to the congregation, facing the Holy Eucharist -leading the faithful in *proper* worship.

How is that 'proper?'

 

[PeaceB]

Even more precise, one ought to worship Latin style, with father leading worship with his back to the congregation, facing the Holy Eucharist -leading the faithful in *proper* worship.

You know very will that many Catholics would disagree with that. If you are going to assert such a thing, I think it would be best to do it within one of the Catholic forums.

 

[Landon Caeli]

How is that 'proper?'

It is the highest, most reverent form of worship.

 

[Goatee]

It is the highest, most reverent form of worship.

How come?

 

[amariselle]

Here is exactly what he said in the speech:

General Audience of 25 June 2014 | Francis

1. We are not isolated and we are not Christians on an individual basis, each one on his or her own, no, our Christian identity is to belong! We are Christians because we belong to the Church. It is like a last name: if the first name is “I am Christian”, the last name is “I belong to the Church”. It is so beautiful to observe how this belonging is also expressed in the name God gives to himself. In answer to Moses in that wonderful episode of the “burning bush”, he defines himself as the God of the fathers (cf. Ex 3:15). He doesn’t say: I am the Omnipotent One..., no: I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. In this way He reveals himself as the God who made an alliance with our fathers and remains ever faithful to his pact, and calls us to enter into this relationship which precedes us. God’s relationship with his people precedes us all, it comes from that time.

2. In this sense, one’s thought goes in the first place, with gratitude, to those who went before us and who welcomed us into the Church. No one becomes Christian on his or her own! Is that clear? No one becomes Christian by him- or herself. Christians are not made in a laboratory. A Christian is part of a people who comes from afar. The Christian belongs to a people called the Church and this Church is what makes him or her Christian, on the day of Baptism, and then in the course of catechesis, and so on. But no one, no one becomes Christian on his or her own. If we believe, if we know how to pray, if we acknowledge the Lord and can listen to his Word, if we feel him close to us and recognize him in our brothers and sisters, it is because others, before us, lived the faith and then transmitted it to us. We have received the faith from our fathers, from our ancestors, and they have instructed us in it. If we think about it carefully, who knows how many beloved faces pass before our eyes at this moment: it could be the face of our parents who requested our Baptism; that of our grandparents or of some family member who taught us how to make the sign of the Cross and to recite our first prayers. I always remember the face of the nun who taught me the Catechism, but she always comes to mind — she is in Heaven for sure, because she was a holy woman — I always remember her and give thanks to God for this sister. Or it could be the face of the parish priest, of another priest or a sister or a catechist, who transmitted the contents of the faith to us and helped us to grow as Christians.... So, this is the Church: one great family, where we are welcomed and learn to live as believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus.

3. We are able to live this journey not only because of others, but together with others. In the Church there is no “do it yourself”, there are no “free agents”. How many times did Pope Benedict “describe the Church as an ecclesial ‘we’”! At times one hears someone say: “I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, but I don’t care about the Church...”. How many times have we heard this? And this is not good. There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations.

Exactly. He clearly states (as has long been the stance of the Catholic Church) that it is a "dangerous and harmful temptation" to believe you can have a "direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the communion and meditation of the Church."

Biblically, he is absolutely incorrect. The Church (regardless of whether it's "Protestant" or "Catholic" is NOT the "mediator" between God and man, we have ONE mediator, Jesus Christ.

These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies. It is true that walking together is challenging, and at times can be tiring: it can happen that some brother or some sister creates difficulties, or shocks us.... But the Lord entrusted his message of salvation to a few human beings, to us all, to a few witnesses; and it is in our brothers and in our sisters, with their gifts and limitations, that he comes to meet us and make himself known. And this is what it means to belong to the Church. Remember this well: to be Christian means belonging to the Church. The first name is “Christian”, the last name is “belonging to the Church”.

Exactly. Unless a person is Catholic, apparently they cannot truly be a Christian. There is, according to Pope Francis (though this teaching in no way originated with him) no personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside of Catholic Church membership and acceptance and obedience to its hierarchy, traditions and doctrines.

Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Did Jesus violate Scripture when he spoke with Moses and Elijah?

Of course not. You need to understand the significance of Jesus' transfiguration, witnessed by both the "Law" (Moses) and the "prophets" (Elijah).The Law and the Prophets find their ultimate and complete fulfillment in Christ; He fulfills them.

Everything Jesus did in His earthly life and ministry was a fulfillment of prophecy and a confirmation that He is Who He claimed to be. Jesus was NOT engaging in necromancy here, He was confirming to His disciples His true identity as the foretold Messiah (the one Scripture always pointed to). Moses and Elijah are witnesses of that. Please don't distort this beautiful, event by compare or equating it to the occult/pagan and forbidden practice of necromancy, (people contacting the dead for guidance or blessing).

That does not make sense. Neither Abraham nor Rahab's stories in the Bible had anything to do with justifying them in the sight of other people. God said "Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." Abraham did not go up on the mountain to demonstrate to other people that he had faith in God. There were no other people even on the mountain.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. It was Abraham's FAITH that made him righteous in the eyes of God. Again, don't miss the significance of Abraham going up the mountain to sacrifice Issac. That is a picture of Christ, it all points to Him. So here we see God provide the sacrifice, because it is the sacrifice of HIS Son that saves us, not any sacrifice we can offer. We need to understand that the Scriptures point to Christ. It was also Rahab's faith that God responded to. She believed the Jews and that their God is the true God, and so she protected them. As a result of her faith, she was "grafted in" to the Jews and specifically the line of the future Messiah. Just as by faith all Gentiles have likewise been "grafted in."

And although nobody is justified by the Mosiac law, it does not logically follow that one can therefore commit any and all sins and not fall from grace.

I never said that grace is a license to sin. The Bible is clear that we are not to use our freedom in Christ in such a way. We need to remember though that salvation is in fact a GIFT, (not a reward or something we earn) freely given by the grace (unmerited) favour of God.

No, the Bible does not teach that a person must be absolutely perfect in order to be saved. The Bible teaches that one should put his faith in Jesus Christ, and be baptized.

Nor does the Bible teach that a person receives Christ's own personal righteousness. Scripture does not teach the Protestant doctrine of double-imputation. A baptized person receives righteousness from Christ, but he is not made as righteousness as Christ himself. If you were as righteousness as Christ himself, then you should also sit at the right hand of the Father. But you will not, because you are not.

Actually, the Bible is clear, Christ is the "propitiation" for us. We stand in HIS perfect righteousness when we are saved and born again, spiritually new creations. That does not mean we BECOME God, and I never said that. That would be absolute heresy. It's Christ's righteousness through His perfect life and perfect sacrifice on our behalf. Receiving that sacrifice reconciles us, through Christ, with the Father, it does not make US God, it simply means we know our own "righteousness" (or lack thereof) cannot save us, which is why we need the Saviour.

And Jesus does not forsake us. You forsake him, when you commit a mortal sin.

So, in other words, we cannot actually ever have assurance of our salvation. Apparently we can't get ourselves saved, but we had better never sin ever again or we won't be keeping our salvation.

I believed that for years. It is not Biblical and it leads only to pride (I've done such and such good works and stopped sinning, so I know I'm saved) or utter dispair (I messed up again, so now, once again, I've forsaken God and lost my salvation).

In contrast, that Bible says when we believe on the Son (which is the will of the Father) being born again, we pass from death to life and are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and we can believe and trust Jesus when He says he will NEVER leave us or forsake us.

How can we be Spiritually "unborn" when we can't even be physically unborn? When a child disobeys their parents, do they stop being their parents' child? Of course not! That idea doesn't even work or make sense in an earthly, physical sense.

Or you may go out and murder and rape 10 people a month from now, or become an atheist and reject God entirely. But of course, if you go out and do these things, that will then mean that "you were never really saved in the first place."

No one who truly understands and glorifies God for His grace and mercy to sinners would ever just want to go out and start murdering people. And yes, once we are saved and born again, new creations in Christ, we have the Holy Spirit and He will guide us in our daily life.

No, but your relationship with Jesus could improve if you entered the Catholic Church and received the graces that Jesus offers to you through the Sacraments.

I completely disagree.

Grace is offered through Christ, not through the sacraments or any other ordinances. We receive salvation through faith in Christ alone and in what HE has done, not by observing religious requirements, (works).

 

[Landon Caeli]

How come?

I can't say really... That's the benefit of Catholicism, you can change-up your traditional worship style

...Could be, one day I might exolore the Byzantine or one of the other 21 Churches within The Holy Catholic Church. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

[Goatee]

I can't say really... That's the benefit of Catholicism, you can change-up your traditional worship style

...Could be, one day I might exolore the Byzantine or one of the other 21 Churches within The Holy Catholic Church. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Each to their own I guess. I prefer the normal every day mass as I prefer to understand what is going on, the words, and I prefer the priest to be facing the congregation.

 

[amariselle]

No, a person is born again when he is baptized.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.​

Too bad for the thief on the cross I guess. (And who knows how many countless others).

Baptism is an outward proclamation of our faith. It is by faith in Christ that we are born again, not by any earthly work or self effort (such as immersion/sprinkling with water). Notice in Scripture that baptism FOLLOWS believing. Nor is baptism mandated in Scripture when individuals ask what they must do to be saved. The answer is, "believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ." Baptism isn't even mentioned in regards to salvation.

Repent of your sins, put your faith in Jesus Christ, and get baptized. If you commit a mortal sin, repent of your sins, put your faith in Jesus Christ, and go to Confession.

That sounds pretty simple to me.

Except it isn't simple, and it's never finished. It becomes an endless and continuing cycle of what YOU must do to be saved and then to ensure you keep your salvation.

Jesus said "it is finished." He actually did accomplish what He came to do, ONCE and for ALL TIME. We don't get to add or take away from that by inserting our own feeble and futile human efforts. If we do grace is no more grace, but rather, works.

Amen! But Jesus also said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

Absolutely. But how can we truly love Him if we haven't believed in Him and been born again? How can we truly love Him when we have not received the Holy Spirit and thereafter are "in Him" and He in us? Remember, Jesus said, "apart from Me you can do nothing."

Jesus was speaking to those who already believed in Him. Until a person is born again through faith in Christ, loving Jesus and keeping His commandments is not even a reality for them. Once we are His, saved by Him, we are then able to keep His commandments as the Spirit leads us and we grow in grace and Christian maturity. None of that can happen though until we have received salvation, otherwise, at best, all we will be doing is going through the motions, but without saving faith, and apart from Him, it's all empty. Remember, as the Bible clearly says, without faith it is impossible to please God.

Many many people are extremely religious and moral but they care nothing for Jesus Christ and/or they believe they are in some way earning or maintaining their salvation. Salvation, however, is NOT a reward for the good things we have done. It is a GIFT.

The Way is narrow, found in Christ ALONE. We receive it by faith.

God bless.

 

[Goatee]

How does one receive salvation then amariselle? Thank you.

 

[amariselle]

I think you need to point to some proof that says that the church says it's dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

I have been a Catholic for 53 years and have never heard that.

Please keep reading in this thread. It is clarified in Pope Francis' own words. (Though he in no way came up with that belief).

What it boils down to is the claim that outside of the Catholic Church there actually IS no personal relationship with Christ available for anyone.

 

[amariselle]

How does one receive salvation then amariselle? Thank you.

As the Bible says, by grace, through faith (in Christ), NOT of works.

The "will of the Father" is that we believe in the One He has sent (Jesus).

This is what Scripture plainly teaches one must do to be saved. Salvation is a GIFT not a REWARD.

It's either grace (unmerited favour) or it's works (which would make salvation a reward for things we have done). If it's works then grace is no more grace.

The sacrifice of Christ on our behalf truly is enough, nothing can be added or taken away from it by our own self effort, or Christ becomes of no effect to us.

"It is finished", as Jesus said. We do the will of the Father and believe on the Son Whom He sent.