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Canabis ect.

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Cerberus~

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No they are not bad because they are prescribed for you by trained professionals were as illigal drugs are not.

What does that have to do with anything? How many ppl die from pot, shrooms, X and even acid? Now how many die from pharmeceuticals like Vioxx that the FDA releases and then come back a few years later and say, "Hey, we just found out this drugs makes your stomach shrivle up into a tight little nugget that'll shoot though your belly. But hey, we're not gonna recall it, we just won't advertise it."?

Also you don't know were illigal drugs are from or what is in them there could be anything in them and people that sell them do not moniter how much you take thats why they are illigal.

That's wrong. Druggies aren't idiots, not all of us. Know your drug, know your body, know your source.

The bible tells us to submit to the goverment as drugs are illigal we are not obeying this verse in the Bible.

There are some who say that we are morally obligated to break unjust laws.
 
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Andrea77

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I dont think people understand were I am comimg from I truly do not want to argue with anyone I am just trying to answer your questions please dont be annoyed with me.:cry: :cry: :cry:

I could be wrong about certain things (but definately not the wicca)

Love in Christ Jesus
Andrea.
 
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intricatic

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Andrea77 said:
I dont think people understand were I am comimg from I truly do not want to argue with anyone I am just trying to answer your questions please dont be annoyed with me.:cry: :cry: :cry:

I could be wrong about certain things (but definately not the wicca)

Love in Christ Jesus
Andrea.
The quote about authority was refering to God's law and authority. One can't morally agree to those terms in regards to human authority because of how often human authority is perverted by sin. The antichrist will be a great authority figure on earth, should we also submit to him?

In regards to drugs being tools of sorcery, that's true to an extent - but only when abused, or used as a means to replace God. As I said in my first post on this thread.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Andrea77 said:
I dont think people understand were I am comimg from I truly do not want to argue with anyone I am just trying to answer your questions please dont be annoyed with me.:cry: :cry: :cry:

I could be wrong about certain things (but definately not the wicca)

Love in Christ Jesus
Andrea.

Andrea, no one's annoyed with you. We just want you to think about your beliefs and be clear about them. So far, you haven't given a clear definition of what you think constitues a "drug", what drugs are good and what drugs are bad, in what settings they are good or bad, what is or isn't witchcraft, etc. We just want you to be as informed as you can be.
 
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Cerberus~

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THE PENTAGRAM !

Which is also a Christian symbol. To some Christians, it's like a cross, and represents each stage of the crucifition. The nail in the feat, 2 arms, crown of thorn and the spear in his side. There are varying interpretations, but that how I heard it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_pent.htm

Within Wicca, it usually represents the 4 elements (water, earth, fire, air) and the spirit at the top.

So don't act like it's a horse head in your bed.

Bill Schnoebelen thought Wicca was a harmless nature-worshipping religion. But once he got on the inside and began climbing to higher and higher levels, he learned that it is nothing more than one of Satan's most clever recruiting tools, designed to lead many into actual Satan worship.
Here is the fascinating personal testimony of a man who stepped into this Satanic trap, and the thrilling account of how Jesus Christ rescued him. You will learn what Wicca is REALLY all about, and become equipped to prevent others from being deceived.

Yea...I read it the first time you tried to sell me the book. I still think he's wrong, I still think my site is more accuracte and unbiased than marketing for a book.
 
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Andrea77

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intricatic said:
The quote about authority was refering to God's law and authority. One can't morally agree to those terms in regards to human authority because of how often human authority is perverted by sin. The antichrist will be a great authority figure on earth, should we also submit to him?

In regards to drugs being tools of sorcery, that's true to an extent - but only when abused, or used as a means to replace God. As I said in my first post on this thread.

1Peter 2:13-15
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
 
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C

Cerberus~

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I dont think people understand were I am comimg from I truly do not want to argue with anyone I am just trying to answer your questions please dont be annoyed with me.

No one's annoyed with you. Just a hot debate.

I could be wrong about certain things (but definately not the wicca)

Well, you're definitely wrong about Wicca, but it's getting off topic now, so maybe we should let it rest. Or if you want to know more, you can head over to non-Christian religion and prove how right you are. :)
 
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Andrea77

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ToddNotTodd said:
Andrea, no one's annoyed with you. We just want you to think about your beliefs and be clear about them. So far, you haven't given a clear definition of what you think constitues a "drug", what drugs are good and what drugs are bad, in what settings they are good or bad, what is or isn't witchcraft, etc. We just want you to be as informed as you can be.

Illigal Drugs.
 
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intricatic

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Andrea77 said:
1Peter 2:13-15
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
So when the antichrist comes, it would be morally acceptable to follow him?

16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
 
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Andrea77

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Cerberus~ said:
Which is also a Christian symbol. To some Christians, it's like a cross, and represents each stage of the crucifition. The nail in the feat, 2 arms, crown of thorn and the spear in his side. There are varying interpretations, but that how I heard it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_pent.htm

Within Wicca, it usually represents the 4 elements (water, earth, fire, air) and the spirit at the top.

So don't act like it's a horse head in your bed.



Yea...I read it the first time you tried to sell me the book. I still think he's wrong, I still think my site is more accuracte and unbiased than marketing for a book.


So you are saying you know more then an X Wiccan turned Christian ?
 
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Andrea77

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The person involved in witchcraft may claim that the Bible does not condemn witchraft, since they assert that the real interpretation of the Hebrew word for "witchcraft" should be sorcery, divination and those who practice such things.

Response: The Bible categorically denounces any and all occultic practices.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your god will drive out those nations before you.

The New Testament also condemns such practices (Galatians 5:20). In the city of Ephesus many who were practicing in the occult became believers in Jesus Christ and renounced their occultic practices. "Many also of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of all" (Acts 19:19).

Another encounter with the occult can be seen in Acts 13:6-12

And when they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. But Elymas the magician (for thus his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze upon him. And he said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul believed when he saw what happened, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord.

The Bible in the strongest terms condemns the occult and those who practice it. The road of the occult is broad and leads to destruction, while the way of Christ is narrow and leads to life eternal.

Other Verses: Ex. 22:18; Lev. 19:26,31, 20:6,27; 1 Sam. 15:23a; 2 Kings 23:24; I Chron. 10:13; Is. 2:6, 8:19-20, 47:13-14; Ez. 13:20-23; Dan. 2:27-28, 5:15-17; Acts 13:7-10a, 16:16-18; Gal. 5:19-20; Rev. 22:15

They may argue that sorcery is black magic used for evil, and that they practice white magic, magic for good.

Response: The Bible makes no distinction between good or bad magic or sorcery. All sorcery comes from the same source and is abhorred by God. See verses above.

Many non-Christians see the return of Christ as a horrible thing. Witches will scoff at this saying "Our Goddess isn't some spiteful deity that will one day wipe out the Earth. She loves us enough to let us do what we want and make our own choices".

Response: Love implies a relationship. If the goddess is in us, if the goddess is us, and is the earth, trees and that rock over there, it is impossible to have a relationship with her and it is impossible to be loved by her. God can be separate from you and be closer than anything else. The holy spirit can be in you, yet you are not God. It is this separateness that allows Christ to strengthen us. We are weak, but through Him we have strength. Because He is distinct from us He can provide us guidance, he can listen to us, he can love us. He couldn't do this if he were only another aspect of our being or of nature.

Pagans believe there is no absolute truth, therefore, there is no right and wrong.

Response: This is immediately a contradictory statement because people who believe in an absolute truth such as the Bible must then be wrong. The pagan will admit they believe Christians are wrong, forgetting they don't believe in a right way or a wrong way. The chances of doing something in this life that doesn't affect someone else in some way at some point are very low. Without guidance or a set of moral standards, we will negatively affect someone else. This is a fact and it is sin. The pagan will argue that we shouldn't impose our beliefs on them. They will also say that we shouldn't harm the environment. But, if I'm an atheist and believe the Earth is just a rock, I should then be able to do anything I want to the environment. To say I can't, is to say my belief is wrong. The point is, it is not possible to say all ways are truth and there is no right or wrong. For the Pagan to say there is no right or wrong is to say the Earth is Goddess, but the Earth is also not Goddess because the atheist is right too. Realizing this impossibility should alert the Pagan to the reality that there is truth out there. As eternity is at stake, it is a good idea to seek it out and listen with this new appreciation for truth.

Jesus gives us a clear vision of how He wants us to live our lives. We may not always like what he says, but that doesn't mean it isn't good for us. As God gives us moral guidance, he also gives us the Holy Spirit to help us. When we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit works in us making us want to do good. Having a relationship with Christ is not a set of rules and regulations meant to punish us. It's a new life and a new appreciation for the truth. And God is there to help us.

Witches believe in endless reincarnation and Karma that is passed on from life to life as you struggle to reach enlightenment.

Response: There is no Choice in Paganism. No matter what you do or what you believe, your life is heading toward the same truth, the same goddess. This goddess offers no end to the wheel of life cycles and has nothing more to offer you than a broken record and eternal punishment for past mistakes. Jesus offers so much more. He loved us so much that He died on the cross so that we can spend eternity in heaven. He gave us choice. The choice to choose Him or not to choose to be with Him. Jesus does not demand that we spend life after life trying to improve our karma, while not remembering what we did to deserve the less-than-perfect karma rating that led us back to earth again. He does not expect you to be punished for a previous life's karma only to pass your karma on to another life for more endless punishment. All he asks is that you believe in Him and accept his free gift of an eternity with Him.

For many Pagans the Christian belief in hell is a major obstacle. They see Christians as Cruel and heartless for believing that humans would go to hell for not believing in Christ. This usually comes from an incomplete understanding of what hell is and the free will that God gave us to choose our future.

Response: First of all, Hell was created for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41, 2 Peter 2:4). The devil is a sinner and has sinned from the beginning (I John 3:8). So, hell is a place for sin and death.

Why would God create a place for sinners to go, they might ask. Why would God create sin? God didn't create sin. It is a natural result of giving us free will. We are not robots put on earth and allowed only to do what God would have us do. God gave us freedom to choose and to enter into a relationship with Him freely. A relationship is no relationship at all if a person is forced to love.

Pagans will also argue that no one would choose hell, so it is only because of a lack of knowledge that they would go there and that is unfair.

Response: Throughout our society we see many people make bad choices with severe consequences and they were fully aware of their actions. People drive drunk, do drugs, and break the law. There are consequences for those actions and we don't assume they didn't know what they were doing. It all comes back to choice and freedom, something we all cherish and wouldn't want to live without.

It is not unfair to be punished for our actions. Even nature shows evidence of consequences for our actions. Believing in Christ is an action. It is the basis for how we live our lives, and there are consequences for those who choose to live apart from God just as there are consequences for those who make bad choices in society. It really isn't so foreign. Christians are those who choose to live with Christ for eternity. Non-Christians are those who don't. Heaven is a gift to those who choose it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Hell is a place for those who have chosen to live apart from God, to whom God will say "Your will be done".

Why doesn't God give us a second chance?

Response: Again this comes back to free will. If God manipulates the choice it isn't really free will is it? Choosing to follow Christ after experiencing the reality of hell is like choosing to bet on a horse race moments before the winner crosses the finish line. God made the evidence of His presence overwhelming. He gave us His Word in the Bible, He sent his Son to die for us, and he created the amazing universe we live in. He also gave us guidelines to live by because He wants peace and happiness for us. He didn't want us to live in chaos without Him, only to accept Him when the race is finished. God is a personal God who loves us and wants us to have hope, a hope that he freely gives. But, it is up to us to choose eternity with Him or apart from Him. God is honoring the right of those he created to make their own choices. We are not just a means to an end. He loves us and created us as unique individuals. He will reward us and receive us with open arms if we choose Him.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Andrea77 said:
Illigal Drugs.

Illegal drugs in America? You still havn't answered the question I posed. What if medical marijuana became legal in America (as 80% of Americans polled in a 2002 CNN/Time survey want)? Would it suddenly become "good" to you?
 
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Andrea77

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ToddNotTodd said:
Illegal drugs in America? You still havn't answered the question I posed. What if medical marijuana became legal in America (as 80% of Americans polled in a 2002 CNN/Time survey want)? Would it suddenly become "good" to you?

Yes it probably would.

Remember I do understand that I could be wrong about this topic.:)
 
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Cerberus~

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So you are saying you know more then an X Wiccan turned Christian ?

I don't know any Wiccans turned Christian.

They may argue that sorcery is black magic used for evil, and that they practice white magic, magic for good.

Response: The Bible makes no distinction between good or bad magic or sorcery. All sorcery comes from the same source and is abhorred by God. See verses above.

But most Wiccans don't practice magic.

Pagans believe there is no absolute truth, therefore, there is no right and wrong.

You haven't the faintest idea what Pagans believe. Note: Pagans and Wiccans are not the same thing.

Witches believe in endless reincarnation and Karma that is passed on from life to life as you struggle to reach enlightenment.

Once again, wrong. Witches practice magic, witch isn't a belief system.

Your problem is you keep using different words with vastly different meanings, thinking it's all the same thing. Pagan, Wiccan, witch, witchcraft all have different meanings.

God made the evidence of His presence overwhelming.

Good. Show me and I'll believe.

He gave us His Word in the Bible

Which means nothing unless you're already a Christian.

He sent his Son to die for us,

A claim from the Bible. Not evidence

and he created the amazing universe we live in.

Any one of the believed dieties could have done that.
 
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iglesia

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Andrea77 said:
No they are not bad because they are prescribed for you by trained professionals were as illigal drugs are not.

Also you don't know were illigal drugs are from or what is in them there could be anything in them and people that sell them do not moniter how much you take thats why they are illigal.

The bible tells us to submit to the goverment as drugs are illigal we are not obeying this verse in the Bible.

Rom 13:1-2 says, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”

1Pet 2:13a says, “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.”


I agree with both of your premises, but I don't know that the way you choose to combine them accurately reflects Biblical teachings on this issue.

First of all, a few weeks ago, our pastor preached briefly on the issue that you opened up with, that the modern day equivalent of withcraft as the word is used in the NT would entail drug abuse. He explained this using basicly the same linguistic analysis that you referred to above. It makes sense, especially when one considers that one reason that people often abuse drugs is for the purpose of altering their mental state and their perception of reality. The goal of witchcraft, at least as understood in the Bible, is to attempt to alter reality through the use of various potions and concoctions.

However, as has been pointed out by the skeptics on this thread, most Christians will grant that not all use of herbs or even manufactured chemicals would be the equivalent of witchcraft. Many people who suffer from depression have had their lives saved because of the invention of anti-depressants. By the use of morphine and morphine derivatives, injured and sick people are blessed with some relief from excruciating pain. People use chemicals for many other purposes to save lives and to improve quality of life. Most Christians would not hold that this constitutes witchcraft.

So how do we decide what is prohbited by the Bible's proscription of witchcraft? One answer that was proposed was that, if it is illegal, it is wrong. This is justified by pointing to scripture stating that we must obey authorities. While this scripture is valid for Christians to follow, it does not necessarily define what Paul referred to as witchcraft. Although this would explain, from a Biblical perspective why smoking pot is wrong things being as they are, it does not indicate that smoking pot would be wrong in all situations.

I think it is better to look at the intent of the person using the drug. If the intent is to escape or to alter reality, then I think it is wrong whether the drug is pot, alcohol, or harder drugs. The Bible does, for example, proscribe drunkenness, but it does not proscribe all use of alcohol. The point is, I think that God wants us to turn to Him to deal with our struggles in life, not to try to escape them with drugs, sorcery, idolatry, or anything else other than Him. When we use drugs to escape the unpleasantness of our reality, we do not turn to God.

Although, I would agree with you that smoking pot is generally not good, I would have to say that the scripture you are using to substantiate that belief doesn't necessarily work. I believe that it does allude to drug abuse, I don't know that one can necessarily infer from that that any speific substance is prohibited. Instead I believe it points to a condition of the heart which encourages us to seek other means of relief from our problems rather than given them to Christ.
 
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Mallory11

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Andrea77 said:
Rom 13:1-2 says, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”

1Pet 2:13a says, “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.”



Weeeellll then, sure is good that Hitler's soldiers were submitting to him....whew they could have been sinning!! :sigh:
 
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Andrea77

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Mallory11 said:
Weeeellll then, sure is good that Hitler's soldiers were submitting to him....whew they could have been sinning!! :sigh:


1Pet 2:13a says, “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.”

Christians are to submit according to common sense and also as long as it does not go against the Bible.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Andrea77 said:
Yes it probably would.

Remember I do understand that I could be wrong about this topic.:)

Interesting. I'd be careful about trusting the government to provide you the difference between right and wrong. What if the government decided that Christianity was illegal (and therefore wrong)?
 
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