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Can you refute these posts?

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by ClementofA, Apr 1, 2018.

  1. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    I didn't say they were the remnant, I said they were grafted in and made fellow citizens.

    Eph 2: 11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
    Eph 3: 1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.
     
  2. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well, I am convinced that all Israel will be saved. After all, Hosea clearly says that the Messiah will not return until all Israel (all the tribes) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Yeshua and corporately call out for His return. Yeshua affirmed the passage in Hosea 5:14-6:2 with His comment in Matthew 23:39. Doesn't have anything to do with what anyone else thinks about it. The promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled by YHVH.
     
  3. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    Joshua 23:13know for sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become for you a snare and a trap, a scourge for your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land that the LORD your God has given you.

    Joshua 23:14Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know with all your heart and soul that not one of the good promises the LORD your God made to you has failed. Everything was fulfilled for you; not one promise has failed.

    Joshua 23:15
    But just as every good thing the LORD your God promised you has come to pass, likewise the LORD will bring upon you the calamity He has threatened, until He has destroyed you from this good land He has given you.
     
  4. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And He did that. But the Lord will also restore Israel, even a second time after the Babylonian captivity.

    Isaiah 11:11-13 (NKJV) It shall come to pass in that day
    That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
    To recover the remnant of His people who are left,

    From Assyria and Egypt,
    From Pathros and Cush,
    From Elam and Shinar,
    From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
    12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
    And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
    And gather together the dispersed of Judah
    From the four corners of the earth.
    13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
    And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
    Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
    And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

    And Ezekiel 4 taken along with Leviticus 26 shows the duration and the time of the restoration. Actually, pretty straight forward and doesn't require any effort to see it. Just some simple grade school math to add the numbers up.

    Either way, Hosea makes it very clear by referencing Ephraim and Judah that the combination of both southern and northern tribes are required to acknowledge their offense of rejecting Yeshua and call for His return.... before He will return. That is clear in Hosea and Matthew. So, there has to be a physical, corporate leadership of the people of Israel that are in place to do just that. No slight of hand nonsense about other countries in the world are the "true Israelites".

    I suppose if one wants to think that the Believers are now physical Israel and somehow rejected Yeshua in 32AD and now they are the ones that are required to acknowledge that offense and call for His return as Hosea says, you are welcome to think that. Not a ride I care to go on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  5. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    Here's that remnant of the second gathering from Isaiah 11.
    5Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.7They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8“And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9“Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

    Here's that acknowledgement of those who participated in the murder of the Son of God and their repentance. Who else but those who participated in it could be guilty of it?
    23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    Acts 2: 37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
     
  6. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I am more convinced that the reference in Isaiah 11 is expounded on in Ezekiel 36-37, and that pertains to the end times. It must, if what Yeshua said in Hosea and Matthew is true.
     
  7. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    Heb 1: 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
    Why did he say those were the last days? If Jesus is the heir of all things, what does that leave for old covenant Israel?

    Heb 9: 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
    Why did he say it was the consummation of the ages when Jesus sacrificed himself?

    1 Peter 1: 20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.
    Why did Peter say they were in the last times?
    1 Cor 10

    You don't see this as the promise of the new covenant?
    Eze 36: 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

    And fulfilled already?
    Cor 3: 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    Malachi 4: 5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Matt 17: 10The disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11Jesus replied,“Elijah does indeed come, and he will restore all things.12But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him whatever they wished. In the same way, the Son of Man will suffer at their hands.”…
    Was Jesus right?
     
  8. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well then, was what Yeshua Himself said thru Hosea and Matthew then of non effect? Yeshua states unequivocally that corporate Israel, both Judah and Israel collectively, will be required to acknowledge their offense of rejecting Yeshua, BEFORE He will return again.

    The rejection caused Yeshua's return back to the place He had left, heaven, and He said so in Hosea. And in the same passage, He stated He will not return again until they acknowledge that rejection and petition for Him to return.

    The Church has nothing to do whatsoever with Yeshua's return. Not even a consideration. Pre-trib rapture, mid-trib, pre-wrath, whatever. The return of Yeshua is conditional on physical Israel, both Judah and Israel, via the national leadership's recognition of the offense of rejecting Yeshua and turning to Him and calling for His return. Won't happen till that goes down.

    So a physical, national Israel that encompasses both Judah and Israel collectively must be in place for that to happen. Ezekiel details when that will come about and later details how.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  9. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    Rom 9: 6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

    9:25As He says also in Hosea, (Hosea 2:23)
    “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
    AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

    26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
    THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

    27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”
    Isaiah 10:22
    Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overflowing with righteousness.

    Rom 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
     
  10. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

    Ephraim (northern kingdom) and Judah (southern kingdom) joined.

    Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
    And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
    I, even I, will tear them and go away;
    I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
    15 I will return again to My place
    Till they acknowledge their offense.

    Then they will seek My face;
    In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

    1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
    He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
    2 After two days He will revive us;
    On the third day He will raise us up,
    That we may live in His sight.

    2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV) But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Psalms 90:4 (NKJV) For a thousand years in Your sight
    Are like yesterday when it is past,
    And like a watch in the night.

    Now, if the Ekklesia is now the who is meant by physical Israel, the when did the Ekklesia commit the offense of rejecting Yeshua before He ascended back to the Father, since the Ekklesia (church) was not an entity till Shavuot (Pentacost) after Yeshua left the earth?
     
  11. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    This fits with Hosea 6:22
    After two days He will revive us;
    On the third day He will raise us up,
    That we may live in His sight.

    1 Cor 15: 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
    Eph 2: 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

    Hadn't they just stated that earlier Matt 21:9 welcoming their king, the son of David? Then when He wasn't what they wanted they rejected Him. In Matt 23: 38,39, I believe they would have to welcome Him into their lives as King Messiah as all of us have who love the Lord in effect saying: "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" Even in Matt 21, it was a great crowd, but it was a far cry from everyone in Jerusalem.
     
  12. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Who welcomed Yeshua and who rejected Him? The people welcomed Him. The early Ekklesia was primarily made up of Hebrew people. The leadership of the Hebrew people is who rejected Yeshua. And it will be the leadership of corporate, modern Israel that will be required to acknowledge that offense and petition for Yeshua's return.

    That quote from Hosea 6:2 is a result following the condition outlined in Hosea 5:15 and supported by Matthew 23:39 that are required for the collective people of all the tribes to be restored. To imply the passage refers to Yeshua's resurrection is allegorical to the extreme and totally outside the boundaries of sound Biblical Hermeneutic principles. Along with not even adhering to basic grammatical structure.
     
  13. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    Hosea 6:2
    From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary antitypically the language is so framed as to refer in its full accuracy only to Messiah, the ideal Israel.
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    The ancient fathers generally understood these words of Christ, who was buried on the sixth day, lay in the grave the whole seventh day, and after these two days, on the third, rose again from the dead; and to this passage the apostle is thought to have respect, 1 Corinthians 15:3; and also of the resurrection of his people in and with him, and by virtue of his: and true it is that Christ rose from the dead on the third day, and all his redeemed ones were quickened and raised up together with him as their head and representative,
    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    After two days will He revive us (or quicken us, give us life,) in the third day He will raise us up - The Resurrection of Christ, and our resurrection in Him and in His Resurrection, could not be more plainly foretold. The prophet expressly mentions "two days," after which life should be given, and a "third day, on" which the resurrection should take place. What else can this be than the two days in which the Body of Christ lay in the tomb, and the third day, on which He rose again, as "the Resurrection and the life"
     
  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Ancient fathers as in who and when. It is generally accepted that Origen (184 - 253) started the activity of allegorizing scripture and Augustine (354 - 430) institutionalized allegorization of scripture. One can trace the line from the Augustine to the Holocaust.

    One has to keep in mind that there were no chapter divisions in the original scripture texts. Hosea 6:2 is not a new subject, it is a continuation of the subject that was started in Hosea 5:14. Using principles of grammatical structure diagramming.....

    Hosea 5:14 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
    And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
    I, even I, will tear them and go away;
    I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.


    This show who the verses are directed toward.... Both houses of Israel, Judah (including Benjamin, Levi) and Israel as represented by Ephraim. The diaspora of these is referenced in this verse.

    Hosea 5:15 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
    Till they acknowledge their offense.
    Then they will seek My face;
    In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”


    Yeshua will return to His place. That means He had to have left His place, which places this as being the time of His death, burial, and resurrection. He will return until they acknowledge that offense of rejecting Him, which Yeshua again affirmed in Matthew 23:39. In their affliction they will realize and seek Him. That comports with Jeremiah 30:7.

    Hosea 6:1 (NKJV) Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
    He has stricken, but He will bind us up.


    This verse follows the same theme that is the previous verses. The "us" has its antecedent in corporate Israel mentioned in Hose 5:14. Yeshua will not return until corporate Israel acknowledges their offense, now this verse is showing that time when Israel will acknowledge that offense turning to the Lord.

    Hosea 6:2 (NKJV) After two days He will revive us;
    On the third day He will raise us up,
    That we may live in His sight.


    This verse is in the same theme and structure. The "us" again follows the "us" of the previous verse so it is the same "us", which is corporate Israel based on the antecedent of Hosea 5:14. After Israel has acknowledged and turned to the Lord, this tells us how long of a period that will be. Actually, many prophecies have a dual fulfillment. This could represent two literal days after they realize their offense and turn to Him. It likewise can mean 2000 years between his leaving the earth and returning to revive the nation. The nation is what is in focus from Hosea 5:14. Sound grammatical sentence and subject structure implies the same group of Hosea 5:15 is who Hosea 6:2 is talking about.

    It is violating basic grammatical structure to say that Hosea 6:2 is about the resurrection of Yeshua. It would be poor scholarship by even a 1st year college student of Literature.

    The two days being a reference to 2000 years as supported by the text of 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalms 90:4 is in keeping with the general concept also espoused by the early Church writers of the 7000 year plan of God, as espoused by Barnabus, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius, and others.

    I have found some commentators that equate Yeshua's resurrection on the 3rd day as mirroring this passage, but they also acknowledge the passage specifically applies to corporate, national Israel. Some say the passage is a reference to the second half of the GT period, but still acknowledge that the passage is talking about corporate, national Israel. For instance, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible, E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes, Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible.

    Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable sums up that the resurrection of Yeshua being a mirror of Hosea 6:2 is purely coincidental, that that context of the passage is corporate, national Israel....

    "He would revive them after a relatively brief period of judgment (two days; cf. Job 5:19; Proverbs 6:16; Proverbs 30:15; Proverbs 30:18; Amos 1:3; Amos 1:6; Amos 1:9, et al.) and restore them to life and usefulness. He would do this so they might enjoy His fellowship and serve Him. The fact that Jesus Christ was in the tomb two days and arose on the third day is only a coincidental parallel. It is, however, one of many similarities between Christ and Israel."

    I think you did a little cherry picking on using Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown. Here is a snap of JFB commentary on the same passage.....

    The Book of Hosea
    Commentary by A. R. FAUSSET
    CHAPTER 6

    Hsa 6:1-11. THE ISRAELITES' EXHORTATION TO ONE ANOTHER TO SEEK THE LORD.

    At Hsa 6:4 a new discourse, complaining of them, begins; for Hsa 6:1-3evidently belong to Hsa 5:15, and form the happy termination of Israel's punishment: primarily, the return from Babylon; ultimately, the return from their present long dispersion. Hsa 6:8 perhaps refers to the murder of Pekahiah; the discourse cannot be later than Pekah's reign, for it was under it that Gilead was carried into captivity ( 2Ki 15:29 ).

    1. let us return--in order that God who has "returned to His place" may return to us ( Hsa 5:15 ).
    torn, and. . . heal-- ( Deu 32:39 Jer 30:17 ). They ascribe their punishment not to fortune, or man, but to God, and acknowledge that none (not the Assyrian, as they once vainly thought, Hsa 5:13 ) but God can heal their wound. They are at the same time persuaded of the mercy of God, which persuasion is the starting-point of true repentance, and without which men would not seek, but hate and flee from God. Though our wound be severe, it is not past hope of recovery; there is room for grace, and a hope of pardon. He hath smitten us, but not so badly that He cannot heal us ( Psa 130:4 ).

    2. Primarily, in type, Israel's national revival, in a short period ("two or three" being used to denote a few days, Isa 17:6 Luk 13:32, 33 ); antitypically the language is so framed as to refer in its full accuracy only to Messiah, the ideal Israel ( Isa 49:3; compare Mat 2:15, with Hsa 11:1 ), raised on the third day ( Jhn 2:19 1Cr 15:4; compare Isa 53:10 ). "He shall prolong His days." Compare the similar use of Israel's political resurrection as the type of the general resurrection of which "Christ is the first-fruits" ( Isa 26:19 Eze 37:1-14 Dan 12:2 ).
    live in his sight--enjoy His countenance shining on us, as of old; in contrast to Hsa 5:6, 15, "Withdrawn Himself from them."


    Fausset applies it to the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian exile, but the nation was never restored at that time. Israel was never a independent nation from the time of the Babylonian exile until May 1948. In either case, JFB attributes the passage as speaking of Israel's corporate, national restoration. Just as I have asserted. Then Fausset diverges into the assumption that it refers to the Messiah specifically. That is an allegorical application that violates the plain context and sense of the passage.



     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  15. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    1 Cor 15: 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
    So what scripture is this according to? Paul also uses a similar phrase and allegory to the extreme here.


    Gal 4: 21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

    27For it is written,
    “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
    BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
    FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
    THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”

    28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

    30But what does the Scripture say?
    “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
    FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

    31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
     
  16. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    This entire post leads the reader into heresy and error.

    Here's why;

    "I did not come to abolish the Law. I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

    Not knowing the Law, modern churches attempt to write their own and in effect attempt to wrest control of interpretation of Holy Writ unto themselves by means of subversion of God's Law. It's always been a control issue, never an honest search for truth. Those who control their members also control their members' wallets. These men always have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

    Did Jesus know what He was talking about or is an attempt to re-interpret the words that came out of His mouth now in progress? I submit that if Jesus' words don't agree with modern interpretation, then He is made to look as though He was speaking of something else entirely. God did NOT say - is satan's favorite ploy. (Genesis 3:1b) The old serpent and deceiver of mankind makes a play on words like a spiritual shell game - moving and switching and confusing meanings until the original Word of God is forgotten in the mists of obfuscation.

    The Law is not dead.

    Neither is it abolished or destroyed or dismembered or remade. What then is meant by the New Covenant? What is the new Law?

    Not knowing the Old Covenant/Old Law, those who dwell in ignorance resort to subjective opinion to fill in the empty spaces in their philosophy. The single greatest reason for Christian disagreement today is ignorance. Lack of knowledge of the Bible is rampant. Fools rule and they do not rule well. Churches concern themselves with buzz words and religious slogans if they teach anything at all (mostly they don't teach anything beyond a Middle School level of false interpretations).

    St. Paul speaks of the death of the Law. If Jesus did not abolish the Law what Law is Paul talking about? Do YOU know?
    Hint: it had its fulfillment in Christ Jesus.

    What form did this fulfillment take?
    Was it demonstrated in any way or is it's significance simply a philosophical play on words or a prediction of events that after 2,000 years have yet to take place (and may be a mental aberration anyway)? What does the Bible say - not your favorite apostle of misinformation - the BIBLE.

    To the true student and seeker of truth: the Bible is self-interpreting. No external source of 'expertise' is needed. Seek and you will find. Prove the Bible true by using the Bible to prove it. Philosophy both ancient and modern does not serve to interpret the mind of God.

    All of this is by way of an attempt to encourage a few who may not be comfortable with all the gibberish that attempts to redefine the gospel and make Jesus' words a confused mess. False shepherds have always trivialized the momentous and complicated the obvious. They still do.

    Come away from them. Seek the Kingdom of God in the pages of His Word, not the words and books of men who deceive and extort.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  17. Ed Parenteau

    Ed Parenteau New Member Supporter

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    I have no clue why you responded to ClementofA's post in this way. You make a broad sweeping accusation about his entire post and then go off on some other tangent with more broad seeping accusations against the church in general and all the while say absolutely nothing about the point that your trying to make. At least that is discernible to me. In other words, if your going to respond to someone's post you should at least reply to something that is in their post.
     
  18. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    IT'S ABOUT THE LAW - IT'S ABOUT SCHOLARSHIP

    I replied to everything in Clement's post.
    Here follows a summation of major points: the church, the issue of Law, doctrinal issues and a final point of suggested study.

    Please read carefully.
    If you don't understand something - ask either of us.

    The Scripture
    Your last point first;
    Did you not read the quote from Jesus that I imprinted in RED? Please read it again.

    "I did not come to abolish the Law, I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

    The root the core the center of all Clement and I have been debating are issues peripheral to an understanding of THE LAW (the Torah or the Pentateuch or the first 5 books of the Old Covenant as it is known by those who read the Bible).

    My post is meant to convey a singular neglect of the church with regard to its duty to educate its members in the use of basic interpretive tools and general Biblical knowledge. I'm sure Clement and I would agree on this point, if upon no other.

    The Church
    THE LACK of attention to scholarship on the part of the church results in error on a massive scale - including a denial of the mind of God. The church expends its energy exploring its own mind and traditions rather than that of the Most High. In other words, the church is infested with the cancer of conceit.

    The average adult Bible Study (a misnomer if ever I heard one) is offered at a middle school level, which is why a minor percentage of members attend. There is never any attempt to teach adults or high school students how to study. Do most Christians know how to perform a Word Study, an exegesis on any topic, or what a hermeneutic might be? [Clement knows. Do you?]

    According to recent surveys, most Christians don't even read the Bible on a regular basis. Ignorance is not bliss. It is a reproach.

    I rarely see rebuttal with any legitimate information. Most Christians reply upon subjective opinion, traditional views, buzz words, religious propagandistic slogans or personal preference on moral issues none of which are Biblical or attend to the mind of God. The church has become an ignorant mob led by self-aggrandizing ungodly men and women who care nothing for the spiritual welfare of those who gather with them. The men are concerned with money matters and the women with petty squabbles about unimportant peripheral issues. Nothing is really accomplished by either group. Evangelism and revival meetings, for example, have passed into history.

    Read my posts. I attempt to support them with external references, not opinion alone.
    Read Clement's posts. He attempts to support them with external references, not opinion alone.
    Few others do this and that is my point today.

    At this point someone is thinking, 'nobody is perfect and no church is perfect'. Such an attitude is not sufficient to justify negligence. The church acts as though stupidity is a virtue.

    The Issue
    We have now arrived at the core issue addressed by your post. You write that you don't understand the root of the exchange between Clement and I.

    The core issue is THE LAW.


    Clement and I are debating points of application of THE LAW. Ask him. He will tell you the same thing. Our disagreement is that we interpret the matter differently. Our problem seems to be that we are literally shooting over everyone's head. We are engaged in a rapid exchange that has left everyone else in the dust. For my part, I apologize for this lack of consideration for those who read.

    This is why I began my post with a quote from Matthew 5:17. This is why I attacked the dysfunctional religious attitudes and ideologies promoted throughout the church today. This is why I continually reiterate my statements in different words. Do you not understand who the audience is here?

    Now that we have completely left the rails on the subject, I wish to make an attempt to return to the subject at hand - the doctrines of Dispensationalism and Replacement Theology.

    * * * * *

    Replacement Theology generally states that the church has replaced ancient Israel as God's chosen people. That the church is now an invisible representation of both the Kingdom of God and Israel.

    Clement provides an abundance of information to explain and expand on the idea. I reject it outright because it is anti-semitic as well as a total misinterpretation of the flow of history both ancient and modern. I've had personal discussions with adherents of this dogma who absolutely refuse to admit the existence of the modern State of Israel or the right of Jews to claim a homeland on the land God gave to them(*). Clement hasn't gone that far, but others have done so in my presence. The ideology is irresponsible erroneous and racist in the extreme.

    Dispensationalism as an ideology is a confused mess.

    There are at least two or perhaps three different doctrines that identify themselves as dispensationalism, each of which refutes the other.

    I confess that I don't have a solid grip on two of the doctrines of Dispensationalism so I will focus on the most popular one.

    Clement and I have been discussing the version that is most often taught in the First Church of Ignorant Christians. The dogma was arranged in its current form by John Nelson Darby, whose original intent was to arrange history in a linear more easily understood manner utilizing logical separations in Biblical events rather than secular ones. This attention to organization of history is the framework upon which Darby hung his other dogma.

    Darby organizes his Biblical interpretations by pivoting his graphic and his narrative on the historic event of the crucifixion. In JND's mind, all doctrine is either BC or AD - before the Law & after the Law. Thus he justifies terrible errors in his assertions. It is not Biblical.

    Darby is neither theologian nor historian, consequently he goes off the road into total error. He is simply wrong. Why? Because the Law is not dead. The Law is not divided upon the cross. Our calendar may be divided, but the redemptive work of God is not.

    Both JND and the church support an egregious error because the cross does NOT break or destroy God's Law. The cross fulfills God's Law. Hence I quote Jesus in Matthew 5:17.

    When Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, Christians generally reply (stupidly but with great sincerity) that I've quoted the passage out of context. They say this because they do not know the Law. They display to all the world their own lack of knowledge and their support of slogans and buzz words which are not Biblical.

    When Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, Christians generally have nothing to say because not knowing the Law they have no idea what Christ was talking about. Don't feel bad. His disciples didn't understand it either until it was in their face. Even then one or two had trouble getting a grip on it.

    FINALLY
    Here's a Sunday school question for you to answer.
    If Jesus did not abolish the Law, but came to fulfill it - what Law is now in effect?

    Hint #1: The Law stands unbroken, not destroyed.
    Hint #2: The gospels speak of a New Law. All the epistles explain its details.
    Hint #3: It is not love or prosperity. It has nothing to do with situation ethics or political correctness.
    Hint #4: It's not about memorizing scripture passages.

    What is it?

    What is the New Covenant that does not abolish the law, but fulfills it?

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

    (*) Even the Qur'an states the Children of Israel have a right to the land granted to them by Allah. Quotes can be supplied upon request.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator... Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Galatians 3:24-25
     
  20. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    double post deleted
     
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