Can you refute these posts?

[Eternally Grateful]

Isreal as used in rom 11

1. non gentile
2. Children of Isreal Aka Jacob, whether saved or not (blind)
3, beloved based on election, hated as per gospel (because as a nation, they reject it )

 

[jgr]

Isreal as used in rom 11

1. non gentile
2. Children of Isreal Aka Jacob, whether saved or not (blind)
3, beloved based on election, hated as per gospel (because as a nation, they reject it )

How would you know without a DNA test?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How would you know without a DNA test?

I do not have to know, God knows, thats all that matters.

 

[jgr]

I do not have to know, God knows, thats all that matters.

God knows who His faithful and obedient are. Those are His only criteria. (Romans 2:28,29; Galatians 3:28,29; Acts 10:34,35)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God knows who His faithful and obedient are. Those are His only criteria. (Romans 2:28,29; Galatians 3:28,29; Acts 10:34,35)

For salvation yes, saved by faith, produces obedience.

But we are not talking about salvation, we are talking who is Israel, blinded in part, or not blinded, who is beloved because of the election, but hated according to the gospel.

It is not all of those who are faithful and obedient.

 

[jgr]

For salvation yes, saved by faith, produces obedience.

But we are not talking about salvation, we are talking who is Israel, blinded in part, or not blinded, who is beloved because of the election, but hated according to the gospel.

It is not all of those who are faithful and obedient.

Since only a remnant will be saved (Romans 9:27; 11:5), Paul must be speaking of two different groups of people.

This is validated in the Greek; the words "they are" are not part of the original Greek. Thus the "enemies" and the "beloved" are two different groups.

This is consistent with Paul's descriptions of the two Israels of Romans 9:6; and of the remnant who are elect believers, and beloved (Romans 11:5,28), separate from the remainder who are unbelievers and enemies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Since only a remnant will be saved (Romans 9:27; 11:5), Paul must be speaking of two different groups of people.

This is validated in the Greek; the words "they are" are not part of the original Greek. Thus the "enemies" and the "beloved" are two different groups.

This is consistent with Paul's descriptions of the two Israels of Romans 9:6; and of the remnant who are elect believers, and beloved (Romans 11:5,28), separate from the remainder who are unbelievers and enemies.

Romans 9 argues one point, romans 11argues a different point, it would be a mistake to use them to interpret each other because of differing contextual differences

Romans 9 is paul arguing the question, did god make a mistake chosing isreal. Rom 11 argues the point Israel, in spite of her unbelief, will be restored,

And no, the beloved and enemy are both talking about Isreal, god made no promise to any gentile nation to keep a remnant, or to restor it if it was lost. He only made that covenant with the physical children of abraham issac and jacob. And many OT prophesies show they will be completely scattered because of sin (fulfilled ad 70) yet later returned because of repentance (yet to be fulfilled)

 

[jgr]

Romans 9 argues one point, romans 11argues a different point, it would be a mistake to use them to interpret each other because of differing contextual differences

Romans 9 is paul arguing the question, did god make a mistake chosing isreal. Rom 11 argues the point Israel, in spite of her unbelief, will be restored,

And no, the beloved and enemy are both talking about Isreal, god made no promise to any gentile nation to keep a remnant, or to restor it if it was lost. He only made that covenant with the physical children of abraham issac and jacob. And many OT prophesies show they will be completely scattered because of sin (fulfilled ad 70) yet later returned because of repentance (yet to be fulfilled)

The only Israel which will be restored is the believing elect beloved remnant.

God's original covenant specifically excluded ethnicity as a criterion.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

God's sole and exclusive covenant criteria have never changed.

Faith and obedience.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only Israel which will be restored is the believing elect beloved remnant.

God's original covenant specifically excluded ethnicity as a criterion.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

God's sole and exclusive covenant criteria have never changed.

Faith and obedience.

You left off half the covenant. Which concerns ethnicity as a criterion, and has nothing to do with anyone salvation.

Gen 12. 1 - 2 To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;

Gen 15: 7
Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to inherit it.”

To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: Also i give to you and your descendents after you this land which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, and all the nations will be blessed Through him (christ). But he was also promised a plot of land as an eternal promise, eternal means forever, that means as long as the land exists, his promise still stands, as paul said in rom 11, gods promises are irrevokable if God can back out on his promise to Israel, what hope do we have? None.. he can break his promise to us also.

 

[jgr]

You left off half the covenant. Which concerns ethnicity as a criterion, and has nothing to do with anyone salvation.

Gen 12. 1 - 2 To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;

Gen 15: 7
Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to inherit it.”

To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: Also i give to you and your descendents after you this land which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, and all the nations will be blessed Through him (christ). But he was also promised a plot of land as an eternal promise, eternal means forever, that means as long as the land exists, his promise still stands, as paul said in rom 11, gods promises are irrevokable if God can back out on his promise to Israel, what hope do we have? None.. he can break his promise to us also.

In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restorationp romises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restorationp romises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

We are talking about an OT covenant given to a select group of people

You did not rrspond to my posts, and you keep trying to discuss covenant concerning salvation of believers and not the covenant concerning a plot of land,

Please try to keep to what i am diacussing if your going to reply to me.

 

[jgr]

We are talking about an OT covenant given to a select group of people

You did not rrspond to my posts, and you keep trying to discuss covenant concerning salvation of believers and not the covenant concerning a plot of land,

Please try to keep to what i am diacussing if your going to reply to me.

You are correct. It is an OT covenant. It is within God's old will and testament. And He has updated His old will and testament, and replaced it with His New Will and Testament, which is a process established in both legal and spiritual law.

There is no covenant concerning a plot of land in God's New Will and Testament. His updates to His old will and testament exclude it. It is replaced by a better covenant established upon better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

In God's New Will and Testament, there are only all-encompassing bequests of all promises and all things to Christ the Heir, and those who are in Christ. (Galatians 3:16,28,29; Hebrews 1:1,2; Romans 8:16,17)

There is nothing restricting the covenant to salvation. It is all-encompassing.
The keyword is all: All promises, all things.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are correct. It is an OT covenant. It is within God's old will and testament. And He has updated His old will and testament, and replaced it with His New Will and Testament, which is a process established in both legal and spiritual law.

There is no covenant concerning a plot of land in God's New Will and Testament. His updates to His old will and testament exclude it. It is replaced by a better covenant established upon better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

In God's New Will and Testament, there are only all-encompassing bequests of all promises and all things to Christ the Heir, and those who are in Christ. (Galatians 3:16,28,29; Hebrews 1:1,2; Romans 8:16,17)

There is nothing restricting the covenant to salvation. It is all-encompassing.
The keyword is all: All promises, all things.

The new covenant replaced the mosaic covenant, not the abrahamis covenant, which is still invalid, and will be forever.

So sorry but your wrong

 

[jgr]

The new covenant replaced the mosaic covenant, not the abrahamis covenant, which is still invalid, and will be forever.

So sorry but your wrong

The Abrahamic and other OT covenants are promissory clauses of the Old Will and Testament, analogous to the promissory clauses in your own will and testament (if you have one). They are not separate Wills and Testaments. There is only one Old Will and Testament, not several.

The Old Will and Testament, and all of its covenants, is replaced in its entirety by the New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of the Divine Testator, Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 9:15-17). Its Beneficiaries are Christ, and those who are in Christ. (Galatians 3:16,28,29; Hebrews 1:1,2; Romans 8:16,17)

There can only ever be one legally recognized Will and Testament in effect at any time.

It is God's everlasting New Will and Testament. (Hebrews 13:20)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Abrahamic and other OT covenants are promissory clauses of the Old Will and Testament, analogous to the promissory clauses in your own will and testament (if you have one). They are not separate Wills and Testaments. There is only one Old Will and Testament, not several.

The Old Will and Testament, and all of its covenants, is replaced in its entirety by the New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of the Divine Testator, Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 9:15-17). Its Beneficiaries are Christ, and those who are in Christ. (Galatians 3:16,28,29; Hebrews 1:1,2; Romans 8:16,17)

There can only ever be one legally recognized Will and Testament in effect at any time.

It is God's everlasting New Will and Testament. (Hebrews 13:20)

Ok, if you think so, this is far from the truth, but believe what you want.

You are saved today because of part of the abrahamic covenant which was fulfilled in Christ. In fact all men and women of all ages were saved because of part of the abrahamic covnant. No person at any time was saved onder the mosaic covenant

The abrahamic covenant was an eternal covenant which was not dual in agreement as most are (if you do this, i will do that) it was an I will covenant, ie unconditional covenant no binding on what men do, but on Gods word.

The abrahaimic (old covenant) was the dual purpose (if you do this i will do that) that was weak and failed, because only christ could keep it, and he did, leading to the new covenant. Which replaced it.

That my friend, is the truth

 

[jgr]

Ok, if you think so, this is far from the truth, but believe what you want.

You are saved today because of part of the abrahamic covenant which was fulfilled in Christ. In fact all men and women of all ages were saved because of part of the abrahamic covnant. No person at any time was saved onder the mosaic covenant

The abrahamic covenant was an eternal covenant which was not dual in agreement as most are (if you do this, i will do that) it was an I will covenant, ie unconditional covenant no binding on what men do, but on Gods word.

The abrahaimic (old covenant) was the dual purpose (if you do this i will do that) that was weak and failed, because only christ could keep it, and he did, leading to the new covenant. Which replaced it.

That my friend, is the truth

I await your NT Scripture countering all that I've supplied.

I also await your explanation of how there can legally be more than one Will and Testament in effect at any time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I await your NT Scripture countering all that I've supplied.

I also await your explanation of how there can legally be more than one Will and Testament in effect at any time.

You wait for things which are not there,

As i said good luck

Ps, the abrahamic covenant, the davidic covenant and the mosaic covenant were all active in the OT at the same time, (the mosaic being the only conditional covenant) thus your refuted in just one sentence,

Again, believe what you want.

 

[jgr]

You wait for things which are not there,

As i said good luck

Ps, the abrahamic covenant, the davidic covenant and the mosaic covenant were all active in the OT at the same time, (the mosaic being the only conditional covenant) thus your refuted in just one sentence,

Again, believe what you want.

You are correct that those things are not there. Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Every OT covenant is part of the Old Will and Testament, which is transcended in its entirety by the New Will and Testament, whose beneficiaries are Christ and those who are in Christ.

God has updated His Will and Testament.

His updates are immutable and irrefutable.

 

[jgr]

.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are correct that those things are not there. Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Every OT covenant is part of the Old Will and Testament, which is transcended in its entirety by the New Will and Testament, whose beneficiaries are Christ and those who are in Christ.

God has updated His Will and Testament.

His updates are immutable and irrefutable.

Actually they are,

Since there was only one conditional covenant, there was only one covenant which could be done away with, and that covenant as paul said was a covenant which was given as a achoolmaster as a hope to lead to christ, ut people, decided that was hiw God wanted to save people, so they determined to obay that law as a means to be enter heaven. The law, or mosaic covenant is the ONLY OT covenant the NT said was done away with, because it was weak, as it could not save anyone,

The NT is the mosaic or old covenant fulfilled, as it did what the old could not do,

The abrahamic covenant is being fulfilled today, in christ all the nations are being blessed, in the future, it will see its climax, when christ rules the world and there is world peace. The davidic covenant will be fulfilled when christ ascends to davids throne in jerusalem as KING messiah.

Niether of those covenants were salvic in nature, so the New covenant has no bearing on those, plus as scripture said, those are eternal covenants, given to the world,

Again, believe what you want, but what you say makes no sense