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danny ski

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Isaiah 57 12- dishonest and out of context representation of "good works"
 
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Pilgrim

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Isaiah 57 12- dishonest and out of context representation of "good works"
It was not a good verse for this situation. I've removed it. Still does not negate the fact one cannot receive salvation without Jesus Christ.

Claims from Old Testament Prophet Regarding [Thy] Works

Isaiah 57:12
12
I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

Meaning: I will expose publicly thy (hypocritical) righteousness. I will show openly how vain thy
works, in having recourse to idols, or foreign alliances, shall prove (Isaiah 57:3).
 
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Raphael Jauregui

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For my ignorance, what is universal reconciliation?
'Universal reconcilation' comes from the Koine Greek αποκαταστασις or apokatastasis. It means, literally, universal reconciliation. It was used by St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory of Nazianzus as well as Origen to talk about salvation for everyone. It's a Christian Universalism that still maintains that Christ is the way to salvation, but that he saves everyone.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Christians claim everlasting life is ONLY granted to those who accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour,

Some Christians.

You're not wrong that there are Christians who say this; but it is erroneous to think that this is universally Christian--it's certainly not the teaching of the historic Churches.

It is the historic teaching that there is no salvation without or apart from Christ. But there is a great deal of discussion within that framework, even including [orthodox] universalist ideas (i.e. the apokatastasis panton that all will ultimately be saved in the end).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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For my ignorance, what is universal reconciliation?

Throughout Christian history there has been a stream of thought that ultimately all will be saved; whether for example Hell itself is ultimately empty, or that ultimately God's love and mercy will ultimately empty Hell. It has historically been a pious hope and prayer of the Christian Church that, ultimately, everyone will be saved. The historic, orthodox position on this is that we cannot say everyone will be saved; but we can say we hope that all will be saved. Basically dogmatic universalism is unorthodox, agnostic universalism is completely orthodox.

It may seem as though Christianity is monolithic on its teaching of Hell, but that is definitely not the case. In none of the Creeds or Ecumenical Councils has the Church ever made any definitive statement on Hell, what it is, etc; because historically "Hell" hasn't been that important theologically. Hell seems to take on a bigger importance theologically in the West in the late middle ages, and much of the modern perception of Hell can be attributed to late medieval and early modern Western works of art and literature, most famously Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy (of which the Inferno is the most well known part).

As just an example: the Lutheran Confessions as far as I'm aware only really address these matters once, where the Augsburg Confession states explicitly a rejection of the Anabaptist belief that the sufferings of Hell are temporary; but even here it comes across more as a rejection of a dogmatic position; and on some level the Lutheran position on "Who is saved?" is ultimately one of agnosticism--we can say with confidence that all who are Christ's are Christ's; but beyond this we really shouldn't say anything because who can say? We know the revealed, ordinary Means with which God operates to appropriate Christ's work thereby justifying us; but we cannot say how or in way extraordinary ways God might accomplish His work. Luther touches upon this in his own writings when he speaks of God's absolute power and extraordinary means by which we do not say that miscarried children are damned--so even though Word and Sacrament are the ordinary means, we cannot deny the possibility of extraordinary means.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Arthra

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Salvation for Baha'is was addressed by Abdul-Baha in the following terms:

"...that which is the cause of everlasting life, eternal honor, universal enlightenment, real salvation and prosperity is, first of all, the knowledge of God. It is known that the knowledge of God is beyond all knowledge, and it is the greatest glory of the human world....

Second, comes the love of God, the light of which shines in the lamp of the hearts of those who know God; its brilliant rays illuminate the horizon and give to man the life of the Kingdom. In truth, the fruit of human existence is the love of God, for this love is the spirit of life, and the eternal bounty."


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 300
 
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HeLeadethMe

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Mat 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


It may be that we don’t need to get complicated about it……any words used for young UNMARRIED woman back then meant she was a virgin by implication. As well as that a young MARRIED woman having a baby…….would have made absolutely no sense as a sign, it would have just been normal and expected. Anyhow I guess we can assume they didn’t have corrupted translations yet way back then long before king James was born…….when an ANGEL from HEAVEN referenced that verse. Safe to assume that an angel from heaven wouldn’t have quoted a corrupted translation even if there was one that somehow managed to sneak past the scrupulous scribes of that day, most of whom would have been glad to punch a hole in the gospel, rather than confirm it.


But we could argue til the cows come home, and to tell the truth for me personally I would have been happy if He had been delivered on my front doorstep by a stork, I don’t really mind too much how He got here, I’m just glad that He came, and revealed Himself to me before I knew any scripture at all. In the end we will be held accountable before God on the day of judgment for choosing to accept or reject the Messiah, God’s Son. The Lord knows it has much more to do with rebellion and pride than it does about how we splice and dice words of scripture. He does not force His will on us, and if anyone chooses to remain in these SINS, well, it is just beyond sad how it is going to end for them, when all they had to do was to believe God, like Abraham did, against every logical objection (or don’t you know that our hearts are tested)..….and it was credited, imputed, to him as righteousness. OH! Blessed is the one to whom the Lord will not impute sin! Whose sins are forgiven, whose transgressions He will not count against him! Amen!

Psalm 32:1-2 [[A Psalm of David, Maschil.]] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
 
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Pilgrim

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False statement. Whoever makes this claim rejects what is written in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.

God the Father is the same for ALL the Abrahamic Religions.



Jesus has been repeatedly revealed to be the Son of God. If Messiah Jesus were born to God as a physical Son, it would have happened on one specific day. But he has always been, and always will be the Son of God. The God of the Bible, creator of all that is, claims He reincarnated in a virgin birth as Jesus, and walked the earth as Son of Man preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, died on a cross, and resurrected after three days, as the prophets foretold.

If you do not trust the Gospel of John then you must reject the Bible in it's entirety—there is no other choice. If you reject any part of the Bible, you must just reject Jesus as the Son of God and salvation to man. Then you must reject the God of Abraham from the Judeo-Christian writings.

Therefore, you agree the God of Islam in the Koran is not the same God as that of the Jewish and Christian faiths in the Old and New Testaments. You can draw no other conclusion.
 
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danny ski

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That's overreaching a bit. My Bible does not contain a single bit of the New Testament, yet the prevailing opinion seems to be that we believe in the same Gd.
 
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Pilgrim

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That's overreaching a bit. My Bible does not contain a single bit of the New Testament, yet the prevailing opinion seems to be that we believe in the same Gd.
Exactly my point. Yet the God of the Old and New Testaments is not the same God as in the Koran. That is not an overreach of the message delivered to us through the Old Testament prophets, and the testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. If anything, it is a denial of exactly who Jesus is. It is a false claim to say the God of the Koran is the same God of the Old and New Testaments.
 
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Pilgrim

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Which exactly do you believe:

1. God of Abraham is same God of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity
2. God of Abraham is same God of Islam, Judaism
3. God of Abraham is same God of Judaism, Christianity

So far you have giving two different answers: #1 and #2. Which is it?

If you believe that God of Abraham is not a Trinity. Then you believe the God of Abraham is NOT the same God worshiped by followers of Jesus. Then you are proclaiming two different incompatible versions of answers. I believe the only correct answer, and the only possible answer is #3 above.

The God of Abraham and Father of Jesus preserved His word for all man to hear. His Word lives, as does the Living Christ Live forever and ever.

Who is "we"? Are you blogging at multiple individuals? If "you" reject some verses and accept others of the New Testament of the Bible—you must reject them all. The New testament is my basis for belief in Jesus the Christ and Savior of all Mankind?

Prophets Tell of Coming of Jesus and His Life
Book of Isaiah (esp. Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 53:3-7, Isaiah 50:6). Daniel 9:1-27. Psalms 22:16-18. Zechariah 9:9. Zechariah 12:10. Micah 5:2

New Testament on Jesus: His Life, Death, Resurrection
Acts 13:30-33
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Romans 1:4
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
 
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Chesterton

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Sorry for the blind post, don't know if this has been mentioned but...that one I underlined, if I want to become a Muslim, where can I find copies of these so that I can believe in them?
 
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brinny

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No one "added" the word "virgin". It was written as inspired by the living God's Holy Spirit. The Messiah's "virgin birth" is the entire premise of WHO the Messiah is, His birth, and that He was not born of "man's" seed.

Without His "virgin birth", the entire Messiah's holy birth, life, death, shedding His holy spotless blood as the Lamb of God, is null and void. The bottom line is that there would be no Messiah.
 
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Pilgrim

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None of the above.

God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad pbut would be my answer. The God presented by Christians is Three persons. The God that Jesus pbuh prayed to was ONE.

I see where you're coming from:

Sura 28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.

That's your 3rd different conflicting answer to the same question. You're a moving target with respect to being forthcoming and honest about this question. My discussion with you on this topic will end here and now. Bye.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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No indeed, I do not agree with you........because all those other sons were begotten in the natural way, unlike Jesus who is the only Son who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

But these things are hard to explain sometimes, we need the Spirit of God to help us rightly divide the word of truth. It's not a matter of logic, it's much more a matter of perceiving. That's why we can't just rely on our brains which are weak in perceiving the things of the spirit. Not that anybody understands all things, but that it is the Lord who helps us understand the things we understand thus far.....understanding and wisdom of the Lord is something we grow in as we follow Christ and journey through life with Him. He is the Way....and the Truth.....and the Life.

The sign of Emmanuel......yes I was forgetting the rest of that story, I should have refreshed my memory.......but even so we have to understand it was a prophecy of the future........that story was a living parable of the real sign which was yet to come.......the only begotten Son of God born of an actual virgin. Again it is hard to explain.....that is why scripture says we need to have eyes to see and ears to hear.....helped by His Spirit, that is one reason why He is called the Helper.

Now Adam.......is called the son of God in the genealogy......understand that this is because, as it is written elsewhere, that Adam is a figure of the one who was to come (Jesus, the Son of God), ie, Adam was a type, a living parable of Christ. Embedded in the story of Adam and Eve, we see a rich picture of the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, the birth as it were of His church/ekklesia/congregation, and how He sacrificed Himself for "her" sake........"her" being all those who would later believe, Jew and Gentile, of which the saga of the Israelites was a living parable and prophecy in itself (ensample) of the congregation of Christ which would later come.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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"It is for the Christians to show, the Jews were expecting God to come to Earth as a man and die for their sins. They were after all, his chosen people."

It is to the Jews He came.......born of a Jewish woman, of the lineage of David........the early believers were mostly all Jewish......the New Testament was writtenly mostly by Jewish believers in Yeshua, who referenced many OT prophecies. Anyway, it is a matter of faith, a matter of the heart.....it is not a matter of having to prove anything. Such a wonderful gift God gave us in His Son, the way of salvation........peace in one's heart, reconciled to God, hope of eternal life. I hope and pray that any who are reading along will not harden their hearts to Him but ask, seek and knock......who asks will be given, who seeks will find and who knocks the door will be opened to him.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 
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Chesterton

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Sadly they are lost.

How are you supposed to believe in texts you've never seen?
Christian Scribes were not professionals and Church History shows many letters were disputed and not initially considered 'inspired'.

We know at least St. John had a professional scribe, St. Prochorus. I'm not sure how you know others were not also professionals.
 
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Chesterton

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The same way we believe in the unseen, Angels and aferlife etc
It seems different when we're talking about writing, though. Doesn't Islam place great importance on the accurate transmission of the written Koran and ahadith, and give this as great evidence of the truth of Islam? Then at the same time one of your tenets requires belief in alleged writings that no one has ever read. That seems odd.
Scholars know from the quality of the copies. Was St. Prochorus responsible for writing all of the works attributed to John?
I don't know. He wrote while John was at Patmos, but I honestly don't know about the other stuff.
 
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Chesterton

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There are many places in the Koran where Allah acknowledges and affirms the truth of the Injil. He says He revealed it, we Christians should follow it, tells Muhammad he can use it to verify the new revelation, lots of stuff like that. So in all these mentions of the Injil, is Allah referring to the book I have with me here, or to the lost books you mentioned?
 
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Chesterton

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Show me the relevant verses and I'll explain.

While I was looking up the verses I came across a commentary which answers my question. Here's the link if you're interested in what he says, but I assume you'd give the same answer. In retrospect my question was kind of dumb because obviously Allah's not referring to the books I know.

Still I wonder about this: Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book (Christians and Jews), you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Injil and that which is revealed to you from your Lord." How can Christians be told to observe writings which didn't exist in the 7th century? If they obeyed the command, and observed the Gospel they did have, they'd be like me - Christian, and definitely not Muslim.

Likewise, in 10:94, Allah tells Muhammad he can "ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you". Why is He telling him to ask people who didn't exist? The last ones would have died, what, several hundred years earlier?

Another thing I wonder about - aren't there Surah which say "none can change Allah's words" (except Allah of course). I think some of Allah's words were eaten by a goat or something, accidents happen, but maybe those weren't as important as the Torah and the Gospel. Seems like Allah would have wanted to preserve Torah and Gospel, especially considering Jews and Christians were actually His people, actually Muslims.
 
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Salvation is a very big issue and has some aspects hidden from us.
God will judge every single person born to have lived in the entire history of the world.
That is from the people of some 40,000 years ago until the very last day.

Obviously, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, Shinto, atheists and others do not believe that
Jesus Christ is God who came down to earth to preach the gospel of salvation and to allow true
believers to enter the kingdom of God.

As a Spirit-filled Christian I have personal experience of God indwelling within me and I also enjoy
miracles, healings, prophesy, divine provision and much answered prayer.
Thus I am rather confident of my relationship with God my Father through Jesus Christ my Lord
and Saviour. And I also preach to others that they too can have this same experience and truth.

Truth can be directly experienced, not just a matter of belief or philosophy.
Jesus promised the Spirit of truth would come and indwell a true believer, a true disciple of
the gospel.
23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father
in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24
The Holy Spirit sent from God the Father is the Spirit of truth. And fulfills Bible prophesies
given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah about a new future covenant that would replace the old covenant
delivered through Moses and the Law.

For me personally salvation is a hope and a promise in my own lifetime. That if I remain true and
steadfast, an overcomer, prayerful and walk in righteousness then according to the NT scriptures
I can look forward to the first resurrection and have no fear of the second death.

As to everybody else (dead and living) in this world they are dependent on the mercy of God
that they may be judged worthy not to be cast away from him - the second resurrection and
the second death ...

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the
heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and
another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead
which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15
 
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