Can you be saved without Christ?

[danny ski]

Jesus is God the Son, the Savior sent unto the world

After spending three years with his disciples, Philip asks Jesus, and wants to be "shown the Father (God)"

The following is what Jesus Claimed...

John 14:10-11
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Claims from Old Testament Prophet Regarding Good Works

Isaiah 57:12
12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

Isaiah 57 12- dishonest and out of context representation of "good works"

 

[Pilgrim]

Isaiah 57 12- dishonest and out of context representation of "good works"

It was not a good verse for this situation. I've removed it. Still does not negate the fact one cannot receive salvation without Jesus Christ.

Claims from Old Testament Prophet Regarding [Thy] Works

Isaiah 57:12
12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

Meaning: I will expose publicly thy (hypocritical) righteousness. I will show openly how vain thy
works, in having recourse to idols, or foreign alliances, shall prove (Isaiah 57:3).​

 

[Raphael Jauregui]

For my ignorance, what is universal reconciliation?

'Universal reconcilation' comes from the Koine Greek αποκαταστασις or apokatastasis. It means, literally, universal reconciliation. It was used by St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory of Nazianzus as well as Origen to talk about salvation for everyone. It's a Christian Universalism that still maintains that Christ is the way to salvation, but that he saves everyone.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Christians claim everlasting life is ONLY granted to those who accept Jesus pbuh as Lord and Saviour,

Some Christians.

You're not wrong that there are Christians who say this; but it is erroneous to think that this is universally Christian--it's certainly not the teaching of the historic Churches.

It is the historic teaching that there is no salvation without or apart from Christ. But there is a great deal of discussion within that framework, even including [orthodox] universalist ideas (i.e. the apokatastasis panton that all will ultimately be saved in the end).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

For my ignorance, what is universal reconciliation?

Throughout Christian history there has been a stream of thought that ultimately all will be saved; whether for example Hell itself is ultimately empty, or that ultimately God's love and mercy will ultimately empty Hell. It has historically been a pious hope and prayer of the Christian Church that, ultimately, everyone will be saved. The historic, orthodox position on this is that we cannot say everyone will be saved; but we can say we hope that all will be saved. Basically dogmatic universalism is unorthodox, agnostic universalism is completely orthodox.

It may seem as though Christianity is monolithic on its teaching of Hell, but that is definitely not the case. In none of the Creeds or Ecumenical Councils has the Church ever made any definitive statement on Hell, what it is, etc; because historically "Hell" hasn't been that important theologically. Hell seems to take on a bigger importance theologically in the West in the late middle ages, and much of the modern perception of Hell can be attributed to late medieval and early modern Western works of art and literature, most famously Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy (of which the Inferno is the most well known part).

As just an example: the Lutheran Confessions as far as I'm aware only really address these matters once, where the Augsburg Confession states explicitly a rejection of the Anabaptist belief that the sufferings of Hell are temporary; but even here it comes across more as a rejection of a dogmatic position; and on some level the Lutheran position on "Who is saved?" is ultimately one of agnosticism--we can say with confidence that all who are Christ's are Christ's; but beyond this we really shouldn't say anything because who can say? We know the revealed, ordinary Means with which God operates to appropriate Christ's work thereby justifying us; but we cannot say how or in way extraordinary ways God might accomplish His work. Luther touches upon this in his own writings when he speaks of God's absolute power and extraordinary means by which we do not say that miscarried children are damned--so even though Word and Sacrament are the ordinary means, we cannot deny the possibility of extraordinary means.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Arthra]

Salvation for Baha'is was addressed by Abdul-Baha in the following terms:

"...that which is the cause of everlasting life, eternal honor, universal enlightenment, real salvation and prosperity is, first of all, the knowledge of God. It is known that the knowledge of God is beyond all knowledge, and it is the greatest glory of the human world....

Second, comes the love of God, the light of which shines in the lamp of the hearts of those who know God; its brilliant rays illuminate the horizon and give to man the life of the Kingdom. In truth, the fruit of human existence is the love of God, for this love is the spirit of life, and the eternal bounty."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 300

 

[HeLeadethMe]

22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ok that's a clear prophetic warning. Amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls was the great Isaiah Scroll. It has been digitally scanned and uploaded to the web. Western Trinity University in Canada, which is a private Evangelical Christian institute had one of it's top Biblical experts help in translating the scroll, and of course as you are probably guessing, the scroll does not say 'virgin' woman rather it clearly says, 'young' woman. Here, see for yourself: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14

Whoever added 'virgin' to your KJV deliberately defied the Prophecy in the book of Revelation. A key passage has been edited to support Christian Doctrine. Of course this now opens up a bigger can of worms, for if in 1611 the 'word' of God was tampered with, then how many other passages does this extend to?

Mat 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


It may be that we don’t need to get complicated about it……any words used for young UNMARRIED woman back then meant she was a virgin by implication. As well as that a young MARRIED woman having a baby…….would have made absolutely no sense as a sign, it would have just been normal and expected. Anyhow I guess we can assume they didn’t have corrupted translations yet way back then long before king James was born…….when an ANGEL from HEAVEN referenced that verse. Safe to assume that an angel from heaven wouldn’t have quoted a corrupted translation even if there was one that somehow managed to sneak past the scrupulous scribes of that day, most of whom would have been glad to punch a hole in the gospel, rather than confirm it.


But we could argue til the cows come home, and to tell the truth for me personally I would have been happy if He had been delivered on my front doorstep by a stork, I don’t really mind too much how He got here, I’m just glad that He came, and revealed Himself to me before I knew any scripture at all. In the end we will be held accountable before God on the day of judgment for choosing to accept or reject the Messiah, God’s Son. The Lord knows it has much more to do with rebellion and pride than it does about how we splice and dice words of scripture. He does not force His will on us, and if anyone chooses to remain in these SINS, well, it is just beyond sad how it is going to end for them, when all they had to do was to believe God, like Abraham did, against every logical objection (or don’t you know that our hearts are tested)..….and it was credited, imputed, to him as righteousness. OH! Blessed is the one to whom the Lord will not impute sin! Whose sins are forgiven, whose transgressions He will not count against him! Amen!

Psalm 32:1-2 [[A Psalm of David, Maschil.]] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

 

[Pilgrim]

False statement. Whoever makes this claim rejects what is written in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.

God the Father is the same for ALL the Abrahamic Religions.

​

I accept Jesus pbuh to be the Messiah and Prophet sent to the children of Israel. He was a son of God, meaning pious, religious God fearing man as many others are described in the Jewish Scriptures. This is how his family and followers understood him to be prior to the Church splitting in opposite directions.

Though disputed in early Church History as genuine letters, those of his brothers do not paint him as a divine being. Similarly though the original is no longer with us, The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, also known as the Didache does not teach him to be divine either. Other letters and Gospels left out of the Bible indicate, he wasn't even crucified.

I'm aware of what Christians believe, and I'm also aware Gospel of John is considered to be the least Historically reliable Gospel when trying to understand who Jesus pbuh was. This highly literate Greek writer is far removed from the Aramaic speaking illiterate peasant that followed Jesus pbuh around in Galilee. The Greeks were accustomed to worshipping created beings. Cult of Greek Gods & Goddesses | Theoi Greek Mythology

Do you think the writer of the Gospel saw Jesus pbuh as the Jewish understanding of 'son of God' or the Pagan understanding of 'Sun of God'?

Jesus has been repeatedly revealed to be the Son of God. If Messiah Jesus were born to God as a physical Son, it would have happened on one specific day. But he has always been, and always will be the Son of God. The God of the Bible, creator of all that is, claims He reincarnated in a virgin birth as Jesus, and walked the earth as Son of Man preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, died on a cross, and resurrected after three days, as the prophets foretold.

If you do not trust the Gospel of John then you must reject the Bible in it's entirety—there is no other choice. If you reject any part of the Bible, you must just reject Jesus as the Son of God and salvation to man. Then you must reject the God of Abraham from the Judeo-Christian writings.

Therefore, you agree the God of Islam in the Koran is not the same God as that of the Jewish and Christian faiths in the Old and New Testaments. You can draw no other conclusion.

 

[danny ski]

False statement. Whoever makes this claim rejects what is written in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.






Jesus has been repeatedly revealed to be the Son of God. If Messiah Jesus were born to God as a physical Son, it would have happened on one specific day. But he has always been, and always will be the Son of God. The God of the Bible, creator of all that is, claims He reincarnated in a virgin birth as Jesus, and walked the earth as Son of Man preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, died on a cross, and resurrected after three days, as the prophets foretold.

If you do not trust the Gospel of John then you must reject the Bible in it's entirety—there is no other choice. If you reject any part of the Bible, you must just reject Jesus as the Son of God and salvation to man. Then you must reject the God of Abraham from the Judeo-Christian writings.

Therefore, you agree the God of Islam in the Koran is not the same God as that of the Jewish and Christian faiths in the Old and New Testaments. You can draw no other conclusion.

That's overreaching a bit. My Bible does not contain a single bit of the New Testament, yet the prevailing opinion seems to be that we believe in the same Gd.

 

[Pilgrim]

That's overreaching a bit. My Bible does not contain a single bit of the New Testament, yet the prevailing opinion seems to be that we believe in the same Gd.

Exactly my point. Yet the God of the Old and New Testaments is not the same God as in the Koran. That is not an overreach of the message delivered to us through the Old Testament prophets, and the testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. If anything, it is a denial of exactly who Jesus is. It is a false claim to say the God of the Koran is the same God of the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Pilgrim]

Show us where it's foretold.

I don't reject the NT as it contains many passages that agree with the teachings of Islam, the same is also true of the Torah, Talmud and other Jewish Scriptures.

The original NT writings are long lost, what we have are for the most part, third hand non eyewitness accounts, and several understandings of who Jesus pbuh was all collected together. Within them you can easily show Jesus pbuh was a strict Monotheist, who worshipped God, did good works and followed the Law of Moses pbuh. You can also use not so clear verses to support he was God himself and should be worshipped as such. They can't both be right as Monotheism and Polytheism are opposed, so we need to look at previous Scripture to support our positions.

Jews and Muslims are clear; The God of Abraham pbuh is not a Trinity. We ask you to bring forth proof from the Torah to prove us wrong. Just bring 1 verse at a time and we can examine the context to see if it supports your assertions.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Which exactly do you believe:
1. God of Abraham is same God of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity
2. God of Abraham is same God of Islam, Judaism
3. God of Abraham is same God of Judaism, Christianity

So far you have giving two different answers: #1 and #2. Which is it?

If you believe that God of Abraham is not a Trinity. Then you believe the God of Abraham is NOT the same God worshiped by followers of Jesus. Then you are proclaiming two different incompatible versions of answers. I believe the only correct answer, and the only possible answer is #3 above.

The God of Abraham and Father of Jesus preserved His word for all man to hear. His Word lives, as does the Living Christ Live forever and ever.

Who is "we"? Are you blogging at multiple individuals? If "you" reject some verses and accept others of the New Testament of the Bible—you must reject them all. The New testament is my basis for belief in Jesus the Christ and Savior of all Mankind?

Prophets Tell of Coming of Jesus and His Life
Book of Isaiah (esp. Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 53:3-7, Isaiah 50:6). Daniel 9:1-27. Psalms 22:16-18. Zechariah 9:9. Zechariah 12:10. Micah 5:2

New Testament on Jesus: His Life, Death, Resurrection
Acts 13:30-33
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Romans 1:4
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

[Chesterton]

Muslims obtain salvation by following the Qur'an and authentic traditions of the final Prophet of Allah swt. We have 6 articles of faith:

To believe God and his Oneness
To believe in all the Prophets found in the Tawrat, Injeel, Zabur, (Psalms) and Qur'an
To believe in all the previous Scriptures in their original forms
To believe in the Angels and the unseen
To believe in the Afterlife including Hell, Paradise and the Day of Judgement
To believe in Predestination

Sorry for the blind post, don't know if this has been mentioned but...that one I underlined, if I want to become a Muslim, where can I find copies of these so that I can believe in them?

 

[brinny]

22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ok that's a clear prophetic warning. Amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls was the great Isaiah Scroll. It has been digitally scanned and uploaded to the web. Western Trinity University in Canada, which is a private Evangelical Christian institute had one of it's top Biblical experts help in translating the scroll, and of course as you are probably guessing, the scroll does not say 'virgin' woman rather it clearly says, 'young' woman. Here, see for yourself: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#7:14

Whoever added 'virgin' to your KJV deliberately defied the Prophecy in the book of Revelation. A key passage has been edited to support Christian Doctrine. Of course this now opens up a bigger can of worms, for if in 1611 the 'word' of God was tampered with, then how many other passages does this extend to?

No one "added" the word "virgin". It was written as inspired by the living God's Holy Spirit. The Messiah's "virgin birth" is the entire premise of WHO the Messiah is, His birth, and that He was not born of "man's" seed.

Without His "virgin birth", the entire Messiah's holy birth, life, death, shedding His holy spotless blood as the Lamb of God, is null and void. The bottom line is that there would be no Messiah.

 

[Albion]

It's not just the word that governs this. Consider the whole conversation between Gabriel and Mary.

 

[Pilgrim]

Which exactly do you believe:
1. God of Abraham is same God of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity
2. God of Abraham is same God of Islam, Judaism
3. God of Abraham is same God of Judaism, Christianity

So far you have giving two different answers: #1 and #2. Which is it?

None of the above.

God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad pbut would be my answer. The God presented by Christians is Three persons. The God that Jesus pbuh prayed to was ONE.

I see where you're coming from:

Sura 28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.​

That's your 3rd different conflicting answer to the same question. You're a moving target with respect to being forthcoming and honest about this question. My discussion with you on this topic will end here and now. Bye.

 

[ronandcarol]

Can you be saved without Christ?
Plain & simple; No, You cannot be saved without the blood of Christ! No one else has paid our penalty for our sins. Jesus Christ is the one and only Lord and Savior of all those who believe & trust in Him.
ronandcarol

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Ok so as well as Jesus pbuh being divine, the same must be true of the following:

Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Herr Kanzler: Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the begotten Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'
God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22

“he (Isaiah) approached the prophetess and she conceived (tahar) and bore (taled) a son and God said to me: Name the child “Maher-shalal-hash-baz” which means (the spoil speeds the prey hastens). For before the child shall know how to cry my father my mother the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Sammaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.” Isaiah 8:4

The people were being attacked and besieged by the Kings of the North. Isaiah pbuh, addressing king Ahaz of Judah, promises the king that God will destroy his enemies. The much needed sign would be a son to be born of a young woman. This has nothing to do with a virgin birth that would come more than 500 years later.

Isaiah 7:14, 8:4 and 9:6 are both talking about this son of God,
and indeed Jewish History records the child was indeed a Wonderful Counsellor:
The Sign of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz - Isaiah Commentary

I hope now that you have the context, it is clear Emanuel was born 560 years before Jesus pbuh.

Let's agree before we move on and address the other verses.

None of the above.

God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad pbut would be my answer. The God presented by Christians is Three persons. The God that Jesus pbuh prayed to was ONE.

In very simple terms, Jesus pbuh was made divine and worshipped by the Gentile Nations after he was taken up to God. His followers from the First Century worshipped the God of Jesus pbuh. I believe if the Christians following Pauline Christianity stopped worshipping Jesus and The Holy Spirit pbut, then they too would be worshipping the God of Judaism and Islam.

Feel free to contribute here: Muslims claim the Bible has been changed.

We is anyone following this thread. You are free to follow what you like, this thread was started in the hope evidence could be provided.

This is why I copied you into my response to HeLeadethMe, she too used Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6. See my rebuttal above. I'd be happy to look at the other verses once we resolve the issue of the 'wonderful counsellor'.

No indeed, I do not agree with you........because all those other sons were begotten in the natural way, unlike Jesus who is the only Son who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

But these things are hard to explain sometimes, we need the Spirit of God to help us rightly divide the word of truth. It's not a matter of logic, it's much more a matter of perceiving. That's why we can't just rely on our brains which are weak in perceiving the things of the spirit. Not that anybody understands all things, but that it is the Lord who helps us understand the things we understand thus far.....understanding and wisdom of the Lord is something we grow in as we follow Christ and journey through life with Him. He is the Way....and the Truth.....and the Life.

The sign of Emmanuel......yes I was forgetting the rest of that story, I should have refreshed my memory.......but even so we have to understand it was a prophecy of the future........that story was a living parable of the real sign which was yet to come.......the only begotten Son of God born of an actual virgin. Again it is hard to explain.....that is why scripture says we need to have eyes to see and ears to hear.....helped by His Spirit, that is one reason why He is called the Helper.

Now Adam.......is called the son of God in the genealogy......understand that this is because, as it is written elsewhere, that Adam is a figure of the one who was to come (Jesus, the Son of God), ie, Adam was a type, a living parable of Christ. Embedded in the story of Adam and Eve, we see a rich picture of the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, the birth as it were of His church/ekklesia/congregation, and how He sacrificed Himself for "her" sake........"her" being all those who would later believe, Jew and Gentile, of which the saga of the Israelites was a living parable and prophecy in itself (ensample) of the congregation of Christ which would later come.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

"It is for the Christians to show, the Jews were expecting God to come to Earth as a man and die for their sins. They were after all, his chosen people."

It is to the Jews He came.......born of a Jewish woman, of the lineage of David........the early believers were mostly all Jewish......the New Testament was writtenly mostly by Jewish believers in Yeshua, who referenced many OT prophecies. Anyway, it is a matter of faith, a matter of the heart.....it is not a matter of having to prove anything. Such a wonderful gift God gave us in His Son, the way of salvation........peace in one's heart, reconciled to God, hope of eternal life. I hope and pray that any who are reading along will not harden their hearts to Him but ask, seek and knock......who asks will be given, who seeks will find and who knocks the door will be opened to him.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Where in Isaiah 7 does it say this is a parable? Actually, don't worry about responding as basically from your mystical response, one has to have the Holy Spirit to make sense of a confused understanding of plain text.

Allah swt says, [6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.

[2:130] Who would forsake the religion of Abraham, except one who fools his own soul? We have chosen him in this world, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous.

On that note, I leave you with:

[109:6] "To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."

Peace

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[Chesterton]

Sadly they are lost.

How are you supposed to believe in texts you've never seen?

Christian Scribes were not professionals and Church History shows many letters were disputed and not initially considered 'inspired'.

We know at least St. John had a professional scribe, St. Prochorus. I'm not sure how you know others were not also professionals.

 

[Chesterton]

The same way we believe in the unseen, Angels and aferlife etc

It seems different when we're talking about writing, though. Doesn't Islam place great importance on the accurate transmission of the written Koran and ahadith, and give this as great evidence of the truth of Islam? Then at the same time one of your tenets requires belief in alleged writings that no one has ever read. That seems odd.

Scholars know from the quality of the copies. Was St. Prochorus responsible for writing all of the works attributed to John?

I don't know. He wrote while John was at Patmos, but I honestly don't know about the other stuff.

 

[Chesterton]

What Jesus pbuh was given superseded the Torah, what Muhammad pbuh received superseded all previous Scriptures. We are told the Jews and Christians are people of the book and to believe in what was originally given to them. This is because despite alterations, God's word is still to be found within the pages.

The core message of Moses and Jesus pbut is found in the Qur'an; worship God alone, do good works and obey the commandments. Islam is nothing new, it doesn't claim to be, it's merely a continuation of previous Scripture with the only differences being, the previous messages were for a certain people for a certain time, whereas Islam is for all people until the end of days and God will stop the message from being corrupted:

15:9 Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

Qur'an means The Recitation. It was recited out aloud, and the Companions memorised it, passing it onto hundreds of more people, which is why all Muslims recite the same Qur'an no matter where in the World they're from.

I hope this helps.

There are many places in the Koran where Allah acknowledges and affirms the truth of the Injil. He says He revealed it, we Christians should follow it, tells Muhammad he can use it to verify the new revelation, lots of stuff like that. So in all these mentions of the Injil, is Allah referring to the book I have with me here, or to the lost books you mentioned?

 

[Chesterton]

Show me the relevant verses and I'll explain.

While I was looking up the verses I came across a commentary which answers my question. Here's the link if you're interested in what he says, but I assume you'd give the same answer. In retrospect my question was kind of dumb because obviously Allah's not referring to the books I know.

Still I wonder about this: Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book (Christians and Jews), you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Injil and that which is revealed to you from your Lord." How can Christians be told to observe writings which didn't exist in the 7th century? If they obeyed the command, and observed the Gospel they did have, they'd be like me - Christian, and definitely not Muslim.

Likewise, in 10:94, Allah tells Muhammad he can "ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you". Why is He telling him to ask people who didn't exist? The last ones would have died, what, several hundred years earlier?

Another thing I wonder about - aren't there Surah which say "none can change Allah's words" (except Allah of course). I think some of Allah's words were eaten by a goat or something, accidents happen, but maybe those weren't as important as the Torah and the Gospel. Seems like Allah would have wanted to preserve Torah and Gospel, especially considering Jews and Christians were actually His people, actually Muslims.

 

[Waggles]

@Muslim-UK
Salvation is a very big issue and has some aspects hidden from us.
God will judge every single person born to have lived in the entire history of the world.
That is from the people of some 40,000 years ago until the very last day.

Obviously, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, Shinto, atheists and others do not believe that
Jesus Christ is God who came down to earth to preach the gospel of salvation and to allow true
believers to enter the kingdom of God.

As a Spirit-filled Christian I have personal experience of God indwelling within me and I also enjoy
miracles, healings, prophesy, divine provision and much answered prayer.
Thus I am rather confident of my relationship with God my Father through Jesus Christ my Lord
and Saviour. And I also preach to others that they too can have this same experience and truth.

Truth can be directly experienced, not just a matter of belief or philosophy.
Jesus promised the Spirit of truth would come and indwell a true believer, a true disciple of
the gospel.
23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father
in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24
The Holy Spirit sent from God the Father is the Spirit of truth. And fulfills Bible prophesies
given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah about a new future covenant that would replace the old covenant
delivered through Moses and the Law.

For me personally salvation is a hope and a promise in my own lifetime. That if I remain true and
steadfast, an overcomer, prayerful and walk in righteousness then according to the NT scriptures
I can look forward to the first resurrection and have no fear of the second death.

As to everybody else (dead and living) in this world they are dependent on the mercy of God
that they may be judged worthy not to be cast away from him - the second resurrection and
the second death ...

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the
heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and
another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead
which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15