Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

The word "image" or "likeness" by itself is not necessarily associated with morality, correct. We have to look at what it is an image or likeness of, and even then it is not always associated with morality. I can say about one of my sons that he is just like his dad because they look alike. I can say the same thing about another because they act alike. The question is then, what does "in the image of God" fully mean?

You say it has to do with "rule and subdue" and morality is not included. I will leave out for a minute the other aspects of God, like intelligence or creativity, or appreciation for beauty, because I want to specifically zoom in on morality.

Some definitions to help us out:
moral being - capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct
moral capacity - ability to know right and wrong
moral knowledge, aka conscience - knowing right and wrong

So God is a moral being and God is good. Devil is a moral being and Devil is evil. Animals are not moral beings - animals are neither good nor evil. Adam was a moral being.

Question - are all homo sapiens moral beings? (for the purpose of this discussion let's rule out mental health issues).
Related question - our bodies are animal bodies. Does morality make us not animals? If not, then what makes us not animals?

I'm not sure that it's possible to say if all homo sapiens are moral or not because it's not really a tangible or measurable concept. I could guess that Lucy might be, because of how closely related she is to Adam. But I don't think we can know for sure.

The concept of "animal", scientifically, would include people.

Biblically we are unique because we are in God's Image. And I don't think that's something that anyone could pull out a ruler and measure. It's a divine or supernatural relationship, status, function etc. I don't think it's something that anyone could do a scientific test for.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm not sure that it's possible to say if all homo sapiens are moral or not because it's not really a tangible or measurable concept. I could guess that Lucy might be, because of how closely related she is to Adam. But I don't think we can know for sure.

The concept of "animal", scientifically, would include people.

Biblically we are unique because we are in God's Image. And I don't think that's something that anyone could pull out a ruler and measure. It's a divine or supernatural relationship, status, function etc. I don't think it's something that anyone could do a scientific test for.

Imago dei could also be thought of like when a student graduates from school and they're handed a diploma. Nothing really changes about them physically when they receive the diploma. They are the same person they were two seconds prior. But they've received a title and receive a sense of authority.

Imago dei may be granted without the need for a change in biology. We don't have to think of the image of God in terms of science and objective material measurement.

 

[olgamc]

There no teledoths here. You aren't describing various chapters nor are you even in the old testament.

You said Bible was not written that way. You said read the whole Bible and nowhere do we find things repeating. But second half of John 1 repeats the first half of John 1, so it is not true that the whole Bible was not written that way.

John 1:19 - "Now this was John's testimony when..." - is that not a teledoth?
John 1:1-18 is a broad overview, and it gets expanded on later in John.

Of the dozen narratives after teledoths identified in Genesis, did any of them repeat a narrative identified before the teledoth?

Answer: no.

Yes - Genesis 5:1 re-iterates Genesis 1:27 after a teledoth as a way to introduce the topic that Genesis 5 covers.

Genesis 2:5-7 reiterates parts of Genesis 1 as a way to introduce the topic.
Genesis 1 is a broad overview, and it gets expanded on later in Genesis.

 

[truthpls]

He created Adam and Eve. He didn't do it twice. Adam and Eve are never mentioned in chapter 1. Chapter 2 is a sequel.

So you think the man He created (and woman) in chapter one were different people.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'

1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament

Did you intentionally avoid the word "solid" in the definition you quoted?

Yes, since it is absurd to apply that to the stars etc. The ancients were not that dumb either I bet. Some may have been, but don't blame it on the bible.

 

[olgamc]

I'm not sure that it's possible to say if all homo sapiens are moral or not because it's not really a tangible or measurable concept. I could guess that Lucy might be, because of how closely related she is to Adam. But I don't think we can know for sure.

The concept of "animal", scientifically, would include people.

Biblically we are unique because we are in God's Image. And I don't think that's something that anyone could pull out a ruler and measure. It's a divine or supernatural relationship, status, function etc. I don't think it's something that anyone could do a scientific test for.

Ok. So yes, if we cannot define the difference between an animal and a person, then I suppose there could have been people before Adam. I mean, some people think that dogs are people too. And others think that some people are no more valuable than dogs. I don't mean this sarcastically, I just mean the line is blurry, and if we can't define the difference than we can't tell the difference.

Sadly, this is the theological implication of believing that Adam evolved as opposed to created separately.

You may want to check out this:

What Does It Mean to Be Made in God’s Image?

Sin defaces the image of God, but it doesn’t destroy it. Pastor John explains what it means to be made in the image of God in this age of redemption.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[truthpls]

‭‭Job 22:14 NASB2020‬‬
[14] ‘Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; And He walks on the vault of heaven.’

God walks wherever He likes

‭‭Amos 9:6 NASB2020‬‬
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

New Jerusalem where God lives is beyond the heavens we see.

‭‭Exodus 24:9-10 NASB2020‬‬
[9] Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, [10] and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

Great. So? How is it strange that God has a sapphire like platform to walk on?

‭‭Job 37:18 NASB2020‬‬
[18] “Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a cast metal mirror?

That is something neither Job nor God said. "Elihu also proceeded, and said"

‭‭Proverbs 8:28 NASB2020‬‬
[28] When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,

The springs came up from the deep in the flood. Obviously that is not fixed like metal. Ha

‭‭Ezekiel 10:1 NRSV‬‬
[1] Then I looked, and above the dome that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

Not sure why you posted that one about angels flying etc.

‭‭Ezekiel 10:1 NIV‬‬
[1] I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of lapis lazuli above the vault that was over the heads of the cherubim.

So whatever was over the heads of the angels flying was the color of lapis lazuli. Eze saw flying wheels.
" The wheels had also a size, and a height, and a dreadful appearance: and the whole body was full of eyes round about all the four."

‭‭Genesis 7:11 ESV‬‬
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

Windows or openings in the sky opened up allowing water to fall. They are not here now and were not here before that. Not sure how you think that helps you

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3 ESV

Etc.

How God gets around also does not help your concrete or metal solid universe claim

 

[Job 33:6]

You said Bible was not written that way. You said read the whole Bible and nowhere do we find things repeating. But second half of John 1 repeats the first half of John 1, so it is not true that the whole Bible was not written that way.

John 1:19 - "Now this was John's testimony when..." - is that not a teledoth?
John 1:1-18 is a broad overview, and it gets expanded on later in John.

Fine . But again, such a thing never happens in teledoths of the old testament. I'm not going to nitpick observations of John because I don't think it's relevant to the conversation. If you have a dozen teledoths in Genesis, and they never retell narratives, then it's an unreasonable argument to suggest that this is the case for Genesis 1 and 2. John doesn't even use teledoths. He doesn't even write in Hebrew.

Yes - Genesis 5:1 re-iterates Genesis 1:27 after a teledoth as a way to introduce the topic that Genesis 5 covers.

I'm fine with this.

Genesis 2:5-7 reiterates parts of Genesis 1 as a way to introduce the topic.
Genesis 1 is a broad overview, and it gets expanded on later in Genesis.

Genesis 5 talks about Noah. So I don't see Genesis 1 expanding on later chapters. Unless you think Noah is present on day 6 or something like that.

On day 7, God rests on the throne and begins communing with mankind. By chapter 2, God is already ruling heaven and earth as He walks in the garden. So in this sense, Genesis 2 also happens after Genesis 1.

Genesis day 6, God hasn't even taken up the throne. Let alone is He presiding over Eden and the garden, holy space filled with his priest and priestess, Adam and Eve.

 

[Job 33:6]

God walks wherever He likes

New Jerusalem where God lives is beyond the heavens we see.

Great. So? How is it strange that God has a sapphire like platform to walk on?

Yea, God walks on a solid glass like dome in scripture.

That is something neither Job nor God said. "Elihu also proceeded, and said"

And? Job didn't correct him. Also, this is an commission that jobs friends thought the sky was solid, just like it's described throughout the OT.

The springs came up from the deep in the flood. Obviously that is not fixed like metal. Ha

The earth is solid just like the heavens.

Not sure why you posted that one about angels flying etc.

In Hebrew, the dome over their heads is the raqia.

So whatever was over the heads of the angels flying was the color of lapis lazuli. Eze saw flying wheels.

Yes and what they saw over their heads, this dome, the raqia, was solid. That's why it's described like crystals.

" The wheels had also a size, and a height, and a dreadful appearance: and the whole body was full of eyes round about all the four."

Windows or openings in the sky opened up allowing water to fall. They are not here now and were not here before that. Not sure how you think that helps you

Windows opening and closing to release and restrain the waters above obviously indicates a solid sky.

How God gets around also does not help your concrete or metal solid universe claim

What? The Bible says what it says. God walks on a solid sky in ancient near east cosmology.

You just haven't studied the Bible. That's really all this boils down to.

 

[Job 33:6]

So you think the man He created (and woman) in chapter one were different people.

Yes, since it is absurd to apply that to the stars etc. The ancients were not that dumb either I bet. Some may have been, but don't blame it on the bible.

You don't seem to have any idea what you're talking about. Id recommend the following video, and if you can make it through, then I'd be happy to continue discussing. But until then, you don't seem to have a grasp on the subject.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok. So yes, if we cannot define the difference between an animal and a person, then I suppose there could have been people before Adam. I mean, some people think that dogs are people too. And others think that some people are no more valuable than dogs. I don't mean this sarcastically, I just mean the line is blurry, and if we can't define the difference than we can't tell the difference.

Sadly, this is the theological implication of believing that Adam evolved as opposed to created separately.

You may want to check out this:

What Does It Mean to Be Made in God’s Image?

Sin defaces the image of God, but it doesn’t destroy it. Pastor John explains what it means to be made in the image of God in this age of redemption.

www.desiringgod.org

Theologically, the Bible doesn't allow Adam to be equivalent to an animal, because he and all of mankind are in the image of God. so I would disagree that this is a theological implication of believing that Adam evolved.

If the Bible were speaking in scientific terms I might agree. But the imago dei is not a scientific concept. You can't measure it for instance.

 

[olgamc]

Imago dei could also be thought of like when a student graduates from school and they're handed a diploma. Nothing really changes about them physically when they receive the diploma. They are the same person they were two seconds prior. But they've received a title and receive a sense of authority.

Right. So all graduates are homo sapiens but not all homo sapiens are graduates. Not all homo sapiens are even students. How do we know if someone is a graduate? They have a diploma. Ok. How do we know that someone is made in God's image? They have something that others don't. What is it?

Imago dei may be granted without the need for a change in biology. We don't have to think of the image of God in terms of science and objective material measurement.

Right. I am not asking about objective material measurement.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok. So yes, if we cannot define the difference between an animal and a person, then I suppose there could have been people before Adam. I mean, some people think that dogs are people too. And others think that some people are no more valuable than dogs. I don't mean this sarcastically, I just mean the line is blurry, and if we can't define the difference than we can't tell the difference.

Sadly, this is the theological implication of believing that Adam evolved as opposed to created separately.

You may want to check out this:

What Does It Mean to Be Made in God’s Image?

Sin defaces the image of God, but it doesn’t destroy it. Pastor John explains what it means to be made in the image of God in this age of redemption.

www.desiringgod.org

And I'll just reiterate:

Scientifically there is no difference between us and animals biologically. We have the same number of arms and legs or we are warm blooded etc.

However,

Biblically, (even if Adam evolved from a prior ape like ancestor) we are unique because we are in God's Image. And I don't think that's something that anyone could pull out a ruler and measure. It's a divine or supernatural relationship, status, function etc. I don't think it's something that anyone could do a scientific test for.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. So all graduates are homo sapiens but not all homo sapiens are graduates. Not all homo sapiens are even students. How do we know if someone is a graduate? They have a diploma. Ok. How do we know that someone is made in God's image? They have something that others don't. What is it?

Every person alive today is a human being created in the image of God. How far back in history do we go until there are no humans? I don't know. But in today's world, we are all imago dei since the life of Adam.

I assume you are human and aren't an alien from Mars, in which case, you are imagi dei just as everyone else.

The only living things that aren't Imago dei are animals of the animal kingdom outside of humanity. And the difference between us and them is that they don't have a divine status as being God's image bearers.

Right. I am not asking about objective material measurement.

 

[Job 33:6]

They have something that others don't. What is it?

Animals of the animal kingdom do not have the divinely elected status, as image bearers of God.

And that's the case regardless of evolution of Adam or not.

 

[olgamc]

Biblically, (even if Adam evolved from a prior ape like ancestor) we are unique because we are in God's Image. And I don't think that's something that anyone could pull out a ruler and measure. It's a divine or supernatural relationship, status, function etc. I don't think it's something that anyone could do a scientific test for.

Right, it's not material, there is no scientific test for it. So is Adam's grandma also a homo sapiens made in God's image? How about her grandma? And her grandma? If all homo sapiens are made in God's image, then we eventually come to a point that someone's mom or grandma is not a homo sapiens. Is that scientifically possible? That something can give birth to a child of a different species?

 

[Job 33:6]

Right, it's not material, there is no scientific test for it. So is Adam's grandma also a homo sapiens made in God's image? How about her grandma? And her grandma? If all homo sapiens are made in God's image, then we eventually come to a point that someone's mom or grandma is not a homo sapiens. Is that scientifically possible? That something can give birth to a child of a different species?

We don't know where the Imago dei would begin in Adams lineage or in time. The Bible doesn't give that answer.

Homosapiens are not equivalent to image bearers. Homo sapiens is like a made up concept of biology used to help classify hominids. Imago dei is a divine status.

Imago dei begins when God grants it to humanity in Genesis on day 6. And we don't know exactly when that happened. Adam probably lived within the last 10,000 years. But the Bible doesn't clarify that detail.

Scientifically, of course species can have offspring of another species. That's commonly known as "speciation". And it's a regular occurrence in biology.

 

[olgamc]

But in today's world, we are all imago dei since the life of Adam.

Not since Adam. Since before Adam. Genesis 1:27

 

[Job 33:6]

Not since Adam. Since before Adam. Genesis 1:27

Yea sure. We don't know how far it goes back. But at least since Adam. Given that Adam was either contemporaneous or shortly after Genesis day 6.

 

[olgamc]

We don't know where the Imago dei would begin in Adams lineage or in time. The Bible doesn't give that answer.

Genesis 1:26 - "Let us make mankind in our image". God does not say "let us make a mankind, and then make some of them in our image".

Homosapiens are not equivalent to image bearers. Homo sapiens is like a made up concept of biology used to help classify hominids. Imago dei is a divine status.

Sure, but all people alive today are homo sapiens. Therefore Adam was a homo sapiens. So for the purpose of this conversation we don't need to include other potential species of humans. I asked you before, are all homo sapiens image bearers? And you said sure - a person is a person is a person. Do you still agree that all homo sapiens are image bearers?

Imago dei begins when God grants it to humanity in Genesis on day 6. And we don't know exactly when that happened. Adam probably lived within the last 10,000 years. But the Bible doesn't clarify that detail.

So not all homo sapiens were made in God's image then?

Scientifically, of course species can have offspring of another species. That's commonly known as "speciation". And it's a regular occurrence in biology.

Speciation occurs when a group within a species separates from other members of its species and develops its own unique characteristics. The demands of a different environment or the characteristics of the members of the new group will differentiate the new species from their ancestors.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 1:26 - "Let us make mankind in our image". God does not say "let us make a mankind, and then make some of them in our image".

Well yea. But what I'm saying is that, the Bible doesn't actually say when God made man in His image. It's not like we can put a year on that.

Sure, but all people alive today are homo sapiens. Therefore Adam was a homo sapiens. So for the purpose of this conversation we don't need to include other potential species of humans. I asked you before, are all homo sapiens image bearers? And you said sure - a person is a person is a person. Do you still agree that all homo sapiens are image bearers?

We don't know when God made mankind in His image. Aside from at a minimum, at the time of Adam simply because Adam is identified as being in God's image. But even still, we don't even know exactly when Adam lived. I would guess in the last 10,000 years based on Genesis' reference to agriculture.

So not all homo sapiens were made in God's image then?

Maybe. We don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us.

Speciation occurs when a group within a species separates from other members of its species and develops its own unique characteristics. The demands of a different environment or the characteristics of the members of the new group will differentiate the new species from their ancestors.

Sure.