Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[olgamc]

Here, I'll explain further.

Genesis 5:1, we have our introduction "these are the generations" or "this is the book of the generations".

And as we read, we see that the story is about Adams descendents. Seth, Enosh, Kenan, It lays out this genealogy. And it goes all the way to Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japeth.

But, we don't see Noah in Chapter 4 for example. Chapter 5 is tells us information that happens after chapter 4. Chapter 5 tells us about events that happen after chapter 4.

Or, lets pick another one.

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah.

Right, we know this story. Its the story of Noahs flood. But what about before this? It talks about the nephelim and the sons of God (that introduced their own form of sin to the land which prompted God to flood the earth).

So here again, the teledoth introduces a story that comes after the narrative before it. That is, Chapter 6:9 tells us the story of the flood, and before 6:9 is the pre-flood events.

Right, so we read the Bible in order. And these teledoth formulas, they almost always tell sequels. Part 2. Heres what comes next. They never re-tell stories.

Right. Neither does chapter 2 re-tell creation. Chapter 2 tells the story of the fall that begins after creation. But first it reiterated the part of creation that is relevant to the fall. Just like chapter 5 tells a new story - Adam’s genealogy, but it repeats the part of creation that has to do with Adam.

But I am getting distracted… I wanted to know if all people were created in God’s image or only some?

 

[Job 33:6]

Not only does Genesis 5:1 start from repeating Genesis 1:27, but it makes it the same story as Adam.

“When God created adam (man/mankind), He made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And He named them “adam” (man/mankind) when they were created. When Adam (man/mankind) had lived a 130 years, he had a son…”

Of course its going to repeat some of the same language, its the same author saying the same thing. And then after the literary introductions, then it talks about Adam (personal name), when Adam had lived 130 years etc. But before that, all it does is give an introduction that, as you've noted, talks about mankind.

Nobody disputes that mankind was made in the likeness of God, or male and female, or blessed etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. Neither does chapter 2 re-tell creation. Chapter 2 tells the story of the fall that begins after creation. But first it reiterated the part of creation that is relevant to the fall. Just like chapter 5 tells a new story - Adam’s genealogy, but it repeats the part of creation that has to do with Adam.

But I am getting distracted… I wanted to know if all people were created in God’s image or only some?

Well, many people think that chapter 2 is a retelling of day 6, or a retelling of days 1-6.

So, I agree that these narratives are not telling or re-telling anything in Genesis 1. The fall doesn't begin until chapter 3. Nothing is re-iterated or re-told. There is no retelling.

Chapter 5 is just a broad introduction about the creation of humanity, Its not actually a part of the narrative that follows about Adam living to 130. It's just an introduction.

It's like in Genesis 1:1, it says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". But if you read it closely, you'll notice that God doesn't actually begin creating until verse 3. Verse 1 is just an introduction. Chapter 5 is doing the same thing.

Its saying, This is the story about how God made humanity. Now Im going to tell you about the descendants of Adam.

The Bible doesn't tell the story about every single human being anywhere in existence. It focuses on Gods chosen.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. Neither does chapter 2 re-tell creation. Chapter 2 tells the story of the fall that begins after creation. But first it reiterated the part of creation that is relevant to the fall. Just like chapter 5 tells a new story - Adam’s genealogy, but it repeats the part of creation that has to do with Adam.

But I am getting distracted… I wanted to know if all people were created in God’s image or only some?

And here's another reason we know that chapter 2 is not a retelling of chapter 1.

And I mentioned this above. Genesis 1:1 and 2:1, the narratives start in the same way with the same format of a literary introduction.

And this takes some careful reading, but its very clear when you know what you're looking for.

Genesis 1:1 is just an introduction, nothing is actually happening.
1:2 describes background conditions.
And its not actually until verse 3 that God actually begins creating.

And this is how it is in every single creation day. Every single day begins with "And God said".

But if you look closely, God didn't say anything until verse 3.

And Chapter 2 starts the same way. Genesis 2:4 is your introduction. 2:5 starts out with the formless and void. Its described as "no shrub and no plant etc"

Then, once the barrenness of creation is observed, then God comes in and says, ok time to get to work. Verse 7, God begins creating.

These are two narratives. Genesis 1 closely reflects something called the memphite theology. And Chapter 2 reflects concepts similar to Enuma Elish.

The narratives are targeting or paralleling two different neighboring or competing creation stories. And you wont learn this in Sunday school.

These narratives are not re-telling the same story.

And on that note, I'm going to take a break, but I'll be back.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. Neither does chapter 2 re-tell creation. Chapter 2 tells the story of the fall that begins after creation. But first it reiterated the part of creation that is relevant to the fall. Just like chapter 5 tells a new story - Adam’s genealogy, but it repeats the part of creation that has to do with Adam.

But I am getting distracted… I wanted to know if all people were created in God’s image or only some?

I will concede a little ground here. Adam and Eve could be included in the humanity of Gen 1. But the broader humanity beyond Eden certainly cannot be excluded from the text of chapter 1. The text is just too open ended.

And I think Paul's writings are too open ended as well. Paul focuses on the church in his context. We dont have his personal writings on topics like evolution because he lived long before such ideas were mainstream. Just like Paul doesn't write about social media and it's issues. It's just not his context and so it's difficult to extrapolate on these topics with clarity. Unfortunately.

 

[truthpls]

Nah, Genesis 2 is sequel to Genesis 1.

Nah. Gen 2 starts by saying it was all finished already and goes back to look at some details of what was already done.

That's why Brown-Driver-Briggs notes in the very first definition listed "man,mankind" because it speaks of mankind as a whole.

No.
Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley

A human being is not millions of apes or people. You selectively choose to use one meaning that suits your wishes.

You cant force the Bible to say something that it doesn't say. And what it doesn't say is "Let us create Adam and Eve in our image". I'm sorry but the Bible just doesn't say that.

You don't even have a case. Adam and Eve were the folks from whom came every person on earth. God knew that. He knew when creating the one man that from the man and woman to be created from Adam would spring the rest of mankind. His first command was to have lots of babies. That kind of a command comes BEFORE there is already a planet full of people.

 

[truthpls]

The Gospel writers do not read their narratives in reverse order. They don't start with the crucifixion and then go to the sermon on the mount.

Chapter two is not a narrative, ir fleshes out what was already done. Yes the bible does do that.

And Genesis doesn't reverse course re-reading information either.

Have you ever read the Bible before? Have you ever seen anywhere in the Bible that a Chapter reverses course and repeats the same story?

Cut to the chase, what is your agenda that you want to wave away Adam and Eve?

No. Especially not in Genesis. You don't read the tower of Babel narrative and then re-read it again. You don't ever see Noahs flood happening twice.

We see the flood mentioned later in the bible. We see lots of stories repeated actually. Jesus even did that!

That's not how the Bible is written. And I'm sorry to break this news to you. But, as I've said, Adam and Eve are not mentioned in chapter 1. Contrary to what you might have learned in Sunday school as a kid.

The animals had no names in chapter one, it did not say how God formed man from the dust. It did not mention how God planted a garden and brought the man in to it. It didn't mention the Serpent, the trees of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life. Or the rivers. Nor how every kind of beast was brought by God to Adam to name. The woman as well. Or how they were not ashamed of being naked. All these things were already done and finished by the time Gen 2 started. The first verse states this "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

 

[Job 33:6]

Nah. Gen 2 starts by saying it was all finished already and goes back to look at some details of what was already done.

No.
Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley

A human being is not millions of apes or people. You selectively choose to use one meaning that suits your wishes.

You don't even have a case. Adam and Eve were the folks from whom came every person on earth. God knew that. He knew when creating the one man that from the man and woman to be created from Adam would spring the rest of mankind. His first command was to have lots of babies. That kind of a command comes BEFORE there is already a planet full of people.

Nope. Genesis 1 never mentions a single individual. It simply says "mankind". I guess you just can't accept what your Bible says.

‭‭Genesis 1:26 NASB2020‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.”

You can reject what the Bible says if you want. But I won't be doing that.

Mankind \=\ A human being. The first is plural, the second is singular.

 

[Job 33:6]

Chapter two is not a narrative, ir fleshes out what was already done. Yes the bible does do that.

Cut to the chase, what is your agenda that you want to wave away Adam and Eve?

We see the flood mentioned later in the bible. We see lots of stories repeated actually. Jesus even did that!

The animals had no names in chapter one, it did not say how God formed man from the dust. It did not mention how God planted a garden and brought the man in to it. It didn't mention the Serpent, the trees of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life. Or the rivers. Nor how every kind of beast was brought by God to Adam to name. The woman as well. Or how they were not ashamed of being naked. All these things were already done and finished by the time Gen 2 started. The first verse states this "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

That verse there. Chapter 2 verse 1 is still part of the same narrative of chapter 1. It's just that your English translation breaks off the end of the story.

‭‭Genesis 2:1-3 NASB2020‬‬
[1] And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. [2] By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. [3] Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Many people don't pay attention to this, but the six days of creation aren't actually the six days of creation, there are seven days of creation and the story ends with chapter 2 verse 3.

Then there's the literary introduction to the second story in verse 4.

‭‭Genesis 2:4 NASB2020‬‬
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

It's a good litmus test to see if people have actually studied Genesis before. If they think that there are 6 days in the first narrative or 7.

And no, all the events of chapter 2 did not happen before verse 1 of chapter 2. Stop reading your Bible backwards. Read it like a normal person. Start with page 1, then read page 2, then page 3 etc.

You don't read books backwards.

 

[truthpls]

Nope. Genesis 1 never mentions a single individual. It simply says "mankind". I guess you just can't accept what your Bible says.

How about the tree? Man was supposed to eat from the tree (and not from the other tree) Do you think there was a planet full of homo sapiens that all ate from one tree? When God cursed the woman for doing something specific, do you think that was a planet full of women getting cursed? When God took a bone from man, do you think He did that operation on millions? A million serpents talking to Eve? God made millions of coats when He expelled man and woman from the garden? Was the garden all over the planet so millions could fit in it? Must have been four big rivers that went through it if that were the case! If so, how could we get kicked out of it? When God walked with Adam, does that mean He walked with millions of people all over the world as well? Did He scold them all when they ate from the tree presumably at the same time? No. It is less than absurd to claim it was more than one first man and woman.

‭‭Genesis 1:26 NASB2020‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.”

Being in the likeness of God involves more than having a male sex organ actually. Even horses could have that. Think about it, only man was created like God, so we are not talking about physical characteristics. (and if physical characteristics were included, it would not be just physical characteristics). Remember also that God Almighty came down to earth to die for us. He now looks like a man! People saw Him after He arose from the dead. We can assume that He knew what He was creating when making the first man. Because one day He would also look like that!

When Adam fell, all future men were also fallen. That would make no sense if one man had not sinned, but a planet full at the same time.

 

[truthpls]

That verse there. Chapter 2 verse 1 is still part of the same narrative of chapter 1. It's just that your English translation breaks off the end of the story.

Irrelevant. When it says it was finished it refers to what was just said! Being another chapter does not matter.

Many people don't pay attention to this, but the six days of creation aren't actually the six days of creation,

Wow. Outright contradicting of Scripture.

there are seven days of creation and the story ends with chapter 2 verse 3.

No. That simply reaffirms that all was created and finished in six days, and it was done by day seven.

Then there's the literary introduction to the second story in verse 4.

‭‭Genesis 2:4 NASB2020‬‬
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

So now we go back and look at what was already done. Nothing spooky about that.

It's a good litmus test to see if people have actually studied Genesis before. If they think that there are 6 days in the first narrative or 7.

There were the six days of creation and it was over and God stopped that work (rested from it) on day seven. No mystery there.

And no, all the events of chapter 2 did not happen before verse 1 of chapter 2.

False.
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them

Which works in earth or heaven exactly are you claiming were NOT finished here??

You also did not tell us why it is vital for you to wave away the first woman and man? That is the only real issue here. Maybe I should guess? Could it be a desire to conform the bible to (your idea of) science?

 

[Job 33:6]

Irrelevant. When it says it was finished it refers to what was just said! Being another chapter does not matter.

Wow. Outright contradicting of Scripture.

No. That simply reaffirms that all was created and finished in six days, and it was done by day seven.

So now we go back and look at what was already done. Nothing spooky about that.

No. The narrative is simply continuing. It's not retelling anything.

There were the six days of creation and it was over and God stopped that work (rested from it) on day seven. No mystery there.

False.
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them

Which works in earth or heaven exactly are you claiming were NOT finished here??

I never said that the 7 days of creation weren't finished. Genesis chapter 2 is just a continuation of Genesis. Nobody looks at the tower of Babel and confuses that with Genesis 1 either.

You also did not tell us why it is vital for you to wave away the first woman and man? That is the only real issue here. Maybe I should guess? Could it be a desire to conform the bible to (your idea of) science?

Chapter 2 is just a continuation of chapter 1. Pointing out a header statement doesn't change anything.

Maybe you are the one who is actually trying to conform with science. Do you realize that Genesis describes ancient near east cosmology? Are you a flat earther who believes in a solid sky?

 

[truthpls]

No. The narrative is simply continuing. It's not retelling anything.

You thought He created man AGAIN in chapter 2?

Chapter 2 is just a continuation of chapter 1. Pointing out a header statement doesn't change anything.

The fact it was all done over and finished actually tells us all we need to know.

Maybe you are the one who is actually trying to conform with science. Do you realize that Genesis describes ancient near east cosmology? Are you a flat earther who believes in a solid sky?

You do not comprehend Genesis if you think it says the sun is encased in something solid.

Strong's
From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
1a) expanse (flat as base, support)
1b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1b1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above

Jesus told us of when stars will fall. If stars were in a metal plate in the sky, that could not happen.

Once again you pick the meaning that suits your agenda.

 

[Job 33:6]

You thought He created man AGAIN in chapter 2?

The fact it was all done over and finished actually tells us all we need to know.

You do not comprehend Genesis if you think it says the sun is encased in something solid.

Strong's
From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
1a) expanse (flat as base, support)
1b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1b1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above

Jesus told us of when stars will fall. If stars were in a metal plate in the sky, that could not happen.

Once again you pick the meaning that suits your agenda.

He created Adam and Eve. He didn't do it twice. Adam and Eve are never mentioned in chapter 1. Chapter 2 is a sequel.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'

1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament

Did you intentionally avoid the word "solid" in the definition you quoted?

 

[Job 33:6]

You thought He created man AGAIN in chapter 2?

The fact it was all done over and finished actually tells us all we need to know.

You do not comprehend Genesis if you think it says the sun is encased in something solid.

Strong's
From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament.

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
1a) expanse (flat as base, support)
1b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1b1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above

Jesus told us of when stars will fall. If stars were in a metal plate in the sky, that could not happen.

Once again you pick the meaning that suits your agenda.

‭‭Job 22:14 NASB2020‬‬
[14] ‘Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; And He walks on the vault of heaven.’

‭‭Amos 9:6 NASB2020‬‬
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

‭‭Exodus 24:9-10 NASB2020‬‬
[9] Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, [10] and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

‭‭Job 37:18 NASB2020‬‬
[18] “Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a cast metal mirror?

‭‭Proverbs 8:28 NASB2020‬‬
[28] When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,

‭‭Ezekiel 10:1 NRSV‬‬
[1] Then I looked, and above the dome that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

‭‭Ezekiel 10:1 NIV‬‬
[1] I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of lapis lazuli above the vault that was over the heads of the cherubim.

‭‭Genesis 7:11 ESV‬‬
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

Genesis 8:2 ESV‬‬
[2] The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3 ESV

Etc.

 

[olgamc]

Of course its going to repeat some of the same language, its the same author saying the same thing. And then after the literary introductions, then it talks about Adam (personal name), when Adam had lived 130 years etc. But before that, all it does is give an introduction that, as you've noted, talks about mankind.

Nobody disputes that mankind was made in the likeness of God, or male and female, or blessed etc.

So John 1:1-18 comes fully before John 1:19? There is nothing in John 1:19 and after that repeats or elaborates on any part of John 1:1-18?

 

[olgamc]

I will concede a little ground here. Adam and Eve could be included in the humanity of Gen 1. But the broader humanity beyond Eden certainly cannot be excluded from the text of chapter 1. The text is just too open ended.

Exactly. Nobody is excluding the broader humanity from chapter 1. We are just saying that when God said "let us make mankind" He started with one man - Adam. Adam literally means "the first man".

And I think Paul's writings are too open ended as well. Paul focuses on the church in his context. We dont have his personal writings on topics like evolution because he lived long before such ideas were mainstream. Just like Paul doesn't write about social media and it's issues. It's just not his context and so it's difficult to extrapolate on these topics with clarity. Unfortunately.

Agreed.

 

[Job 33:6]

So John 1:1-18 comes fully before John 1:19? There is nothing in John 1:19 and after that repeats or elaborates on any part of John 1:1-18?

There no teledoths here. You aren't describing various chapters nor are you even in the old testament.

Of the dozen narratives after teledoths identified in Genesis, did any of them repeat a narrative identified before the teledoth?

Answer: no.

 

[olgamc]

Well, the image of God, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that it is associated with the concept of morality.

Genesis 5:3 is a similar example.
And when Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he fathered a child in his likeness, according to his image. And he called his name Seth.

But I don't think that means that Cain lacked moral capacity in opposition to Seth.

Sometimes its used in reference to image bearing idols:
Then all the people of the land went to the temple of Baal and tore it down, and its altars and its images they broke completely into pieces. Mattan the priest of Baal they killed in front of the altars. Then the priest put guards over the house of Yahweh. 2 Kings 11

Thats not really about morality.

And you will take up Sikkuth, your king, and Kaiwan, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves.
Amos 5:26

Yea I mean, what I'm saying is that, usually when that concept is used, its just not directly linked to morality. It mostly appears to be used with relation to like a, representation of a sort. Sometimes its good, sometimes its evil depending on the deity. In Genesis its linked to subduing and ruling, and that's more like a verb. An action. It's not really about whether or not people have a capacity to sin or not. etc.

And the Bible just says that humanity or mankind is in the image of God, made in His image. So that would be everyone, including Lucy.

The word "image" or "likeness" by itself is not necessarily associated with morality, correct. We have to look at what it is an image or likeness of, and even then it is not always associated with morality. I can say about one of my sons that he is just like his dad because they look alike. I can say the same thing about another because they act alike. The question is then, what does "in the image of God" fully mean?

You say it has to do with "rule and subdue" and morality is not included. I will leave out for a minute the other aspects of God, like intelligence or creativity, or appreciation for beauty, because I want to specifically zoom in on morality.

Some definitions to help us out:
moral being - capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct
moral capacity - ability to know right and wrong
moral knowledge, aka conscience - knowing right and wrong

So God is a moral being and God is good. Devil is a moral being and Devil is evil. Animals are not moral beings - animals are neither good nor evil. Adam was a moral being.

Question - are all homo sapiens moral beings? (for the purpose of this discussion let's rule out mental health issues).
Related question - our bodies are animal bodies. Does morality make us not animals? If not, then what makes us not animals?

 

[Job 33:6]

Exactly. Nobody is excluding the broader humanity from chapter 1. We are just saying that when God said "let us make mankind" He started with one man - Adam. Adam literally means "the first man".

The other person in this conversation certainly is excluding external humanity in chapter 1.

But I will still point out that even with humanity created on day 6, if interpreted to include Adam and Eve, the chapter 2 narrative would still be a sequel to chapter 1. Not really a retelling of day 6 given that the narrative is its own independent creation story. It would be more like a day 8 in a sense.

Agreed.