Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[truthpls]

Yea, God walks on a solid glass like dome in scripture.

No the flying wheel which contained the throne and angels etc had a solid area

And? Job didn't correct him. Also, this is an commission that jobs friends thought the sky was solid, just like it's described throughout the OT.

Quite a few thing Job did not correct. God did flush their advice and rebuked them as silly though. Maybe think twice before building your theories on their words.

In Hebrew, the dome over their heads is the raqia.

So? They were up in the sky.

Yes and what they saw over their heads, this dome, the raqia, was solid. That's why it's described like crystals.

The flying saucer as some people call it, or mobile throne of God, of flying wheel or whatever was solid. It was over the angels since they were going and coming to earth!

Windows opening and closing to release and restrain the waters above obviously indicates a solid sky.

No. It indicates something the natural world has never seen.

What? The Bible says what it says. God walks on a solid sky in ancient near east cosmology.

It says nothing about 'near east cosmology' actually. There is a place somewhere up there where Hod walks. So what? That does not make the universe metal! If He walked (as He does) in the gold city He prepared for us up there, does that make the universe solid? Absurd.

You just haven't studied the Bible. That's really all this boils down to.

Understanding what you read is far more important,

 

[truthpls]

You don't seem to have any idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, your idea of a solid universe ranks less than a flat earth as far a being what the bible says. Your claim that the first man, Adam was not really the first man is complete nonsense. Basically you have build a house on falsehoods that is not solid in any way.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sorry, your idea of a solid universe ranks less than a flat earth as far a being what the bible says. Your claim that the first man, Adam was not really the first man is complete nonsense. Basically you have build a house on falsehoods that is not solid in any way.

The earth is flat in the Bible too. Have you never read the Bible before?

‭‭Proverbs 8:27-28 ESV‬‬
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, [28] when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Flat and geocentric.

Etc.

 

[olgamc]

Well yea. But what I'm saying is that, the Bible doesn't actually say when God made man in His image. It's not like we can put a year on that.

We don't have to put a year on it, but the Bible does tell us when God made man in his image. When God made man.

So not all homo sapiens were made in God's image then?

Maybe. We don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us.

See? That's what I mean. The Bible does tell us that all mankind was made in God's image. Over and over and over again. But if we believe that, we have to believe that Adam was the first person of the entire mankind. And if we don't believe that he was, then we start saying things like well, maybe not all homo sapiens are in God's image. Maybe they are, but maybe they aren't, we just don't know. And that little bit of uncertainty gives rise to all kinds of theological and moral implications.

Speciation occurs when a group within a species separates from other members of its species and develops its own unique characteristics. The demands of a different environment or the characteristics of the members of the new group will differentiate the new species from their ancestors.

Sure.

Right. So a mother cannot give birth to a baby of a different species. That's not speciation. Speciation is when my brother and I have the same mother, and I move away. And I have kids and my kids have kids and they have kids etc. Same with by brother. Then eventually, after many many many, and I mean MANY generations, my descendants are not the same species as my brother's. But each child had a mom that was the same species as the child.

Btw, has speciation been observed and proven or is it still a theory? I thought it's been observed, but now that I am actually looking it up, I can't find it.

 

[olgamc]

Also, on the contrary, if you watched the video I shared a few days ago, you'll notice that, Chapter 2 begins with a teledoth.

And teledoth literary introductions never repeat narratives.

Here are a list of all teledoth in Genesis:
Genesis 5:1
Genesis 6:9
Genesis 10:1
Genesis 11:10
Genesis 11:27
Genesis 25:12
Genesis 25:19
Genesis 36:1
Genesis 36:9
Genesis 37:2

These teledoth literary introductions, you can look at every single one of them, and you will never find that they introduce a retelling of the same story.

The Bible just isn't written that way. They most often tell sequels. That is, the chapters after the teledoths happen after the chapter before the teledoth. Chronologically. Like any regular book or story. You read chapter 1, then you read chapter 2. In order.

Just circling back to this. I started looking up these verses. Here's what I found:

Genesis 5:1 - repeats Genesis 1:27 and mentions Adam as part of the same story
Genesis 6:9 - is the teledoth. Then Genesis 6:11-12 repeats Genesis 6:5-6, so it is reasonable to assume that Genesis 6:13 repeats Genesis 6:7 and adds a detail - Noah.
Genesis 10:1 - I did not find a repetition there
Genesis 11:10 - starts the story with a time "two years after the flood". But Genesis 10 just told us about the generations from Shem, Ham and Japheth to Canaanites and Semites and finished with "from these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.". Then we had Genesis 11:1-9 that talked about Babel. And now in Genesis 11:10 we are back to only two years after the flood. Not only does it jump back in time, but it repeats Genesis 10:21-25, and both adds and eliminates details.
Genesis 11:27 - I did not notice a repetition
Genesis 25:12 - I did not see a repetition, but Ishmael dies at 137 years old and then
Genesis 25:19 - goes back to Isaac being 40 years old, which chronologically overlaps with Ishmael from the previous section

So out of 7 verses that I looked at, 4 either repeat or go back in time with more details or a parallel narrative after a teledoth.

 

[Job 33:6]

Just circling back to this. I started looking up these verses. Here's what I found:

Genesis 5:1 - repeats Genesis 1:27 and mentions Adam as part of the same story

The narrative after the teledoth does not retell the narrative before the teledoth. The stories are about Cain and Seth. Two different stories about two different people.

Genesis 6:9 - is the teledoth. Then Genesis 6:11-12 repeats Genesis 6:5-6,

Genesis 6:11 and 12 is sequel. It's not retelling the narrative of the nephelim. The narrative of the nephelim comes before the narrative of the flood. Id recommend reading the book of Enoch.

so it is reasonable to assume that Genesis 6:13 repeats Genesis 6:7 and adds a detail - Noah.

The narrative after the teledoth is the story of the flood, the narrative before the teledoth is about the nephelim and the sons of God. This is a sequel.

And if you're not familiar with this, I would recommend reading up on the book of Enoch.

Genesis 10:1 - I did not find a repetition there

It's a sequel. The narrative after the teledoth continues the story that came before the teledoth. The table of nations is a continuation of the story of Noah's descendents.

Genesis 11:10 - starts the story with a time "two years after the flood". But Genesis 10 just told us about the generations from Shem, Ham and Japheth to Canaanites and Semites and finished with "from these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.".

A narrative about shems descendants is not a retelling of the table of nations, nor the tower of Babel. These are different narratives. There is no retelling happening here.

Then we had Genesis 11:1-9 that talked about Babel. And now in Genesis 11:10 we are back to only two years after the flood. Not only does it jump back in time, but it repeats Genesis 10:21-25, and both adds and eliminates details.
Genesis 11:27 - I did not notice a repetition

It's a sequel. The table of nations is a different story than a genealogy of shems descendents. It's not a retelling of the same narrative.

Genesis 25:12 - I did not see a repetition, but Ishmael dies at 137 years old and then
Genesis 25:19 - goes back to Isaac being 40 years old, which chronologically overlaps with Ishmael from the previous section

Chapter 24 is about Abraham, predominantly. Then after the teledoth, the focus is on Ishmael, after Abraham's death. That's a sequel. It's not retelling the story of Abraham. It's after Abraham dies.

The second teledoth, in verse 19 does backup a bit with Abraham's sons, but this isn't a retelling of the same narrative. The focus shifts from Ishmael to Isaac and Jacob. So it's not a retelling.

So out of 7 verses that I looked at, 4 either repeat or a go back in time with more details or a parallel narrative after a teledoth.

None retell the same story that is being suggested of Genesis 2 and 1.

Think about it. People are trying to say that Genesis chapter 2 is retelling day 6. Basically taking this one day and expanding on it with detail.

None of the examples above fit that bill.

Abraham dying and the narrative switching to Abraham's sons, that's not a retelling of the story.

The nephelim taking the daughters of men, followed by the flood. That's not a retelling of the same story or even a piece of it.

Ishmael is not the same person as Isaac or Jacob, not a retelling.

None of these examples involve a narrative being retold in some expansive way.

 

[truthpls]

The earth is flat in the Bible too. Have you never read the Bible before?

False

‭‭Proverbs 8:27-28 ESV‬‬
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, [28] when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

Nothing about a flat earth there

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

No matter where the circle of the earth is, God is above it. The heavens are stretched out as well. Not sure why you post this

Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭

A prophesy. Not sure what you thought it meant.

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

Prophesy about the time when the earth shakes. God will ensure the planet holds together, because He is returning to rule here

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

The earth has pillars and a foundation. Probably not the kind you have in mind.

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

A dream

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

The 'it' referred to here is the morning. That does not help your flat earth claims

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

It did...so?

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Flat and geocentric.

Etc.

From earth perspective the sun rises and sets. Strange how you jump from claiming man pre existed Adam to misrepresenting Scriptures on other topics here. There should be a trophy for that

 

[olgamc]

‭‭Job 22:14 NASB2020‬‬
[14] ‘Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; And He walks on the vault of heaven.’

‭‭Amos 9:6 NASB2020‬‬
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

‭‭Exodus 24:9-10 NASB2020‬‬
[9] Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, [10] and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

‭‭Job 37:18 NASB2020‬‬
[18] “Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a cast metal mirror?

‭‭Proverbs 8:28 NASB2020‬‬
[28] When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed,

‭‭Ezekiel 10:1 NRSV‬‬
[1] Then I looked, and above the dome that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire, in form resembling a throne.

‭‭Ezekiel 10:1 NIV‬‬
[1] I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of lapis lazuli above the vault that was over the heads of the cherubim.

‭‭Genesis 7:11 ESV‬‬
[11] In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

Genesis 8:2 ESV‬‬
[2] The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3 ESV

Etc.

Also, I've been watching your conversation with TruthPls, and no offense and with all respect, but you are comparing totally different genres of books.

Most of Job is a conversation among 3 ancient guys. They lived before Moses. Probably before Joseph even. Of course they had wacky ideas. God doesn't actually speak until Job 38, and then He basically mocks their cosmology.

Amos and Ezekiel are prophets. They are seeing visions. Exodus 24:9-10 is also a vision. And they are not visions of our physical earth, they are visions of the spiritual world.

You've quoted Psalms before - that's poetic language.

Proverbs 8 is a chapter where wisdom speaks. It is a figurative chapter, because wisdom, as we know it, is not a person and it cannot speak. Proverbs 8:22 wisdom says that she was the first thing the Lord created, and then she goes on to say that she was there when the Lord created everything. She uses near-east cosmology to communicate a point - I, wisdom, know how the world was made, I was there when it was made. This verse is not to be taken literally.

Genesis is an entirely different book. It has both literal and figurative words, but the main purpose is a historic record of the beginning (Genesis). Moses just led a whole bunch of people out of Egypt to re-start God's chosen nation. They've been around Egyptian culture and theology for 400 years. They need to be reminded the truth of where they came from, who God is, and how they came to be a chosen nation. Like you said, it's not a science textbook. It's not physics or biology (though it has a bit of both) - it's history.

 

[Job 33:6]

Just circling back to this. I started looking up these verses. Here's what I found:

Genesis 5:1 - repeats Genesis 1:27 and mentions Adam as part of the same story
Genesis 6:9 - is the teledoth. Then Genesis 6:11-12 repeats Genesis 6:5-6, so it is reasonable to assume that Genesis 6:13 repeats Genesis 6:7 and adds a detail - Noah.

You should check out the book of the giants, the book of Enoch, and lookup "reversing hermon" for the Genesis 6 narrative. It's absolutely not retelling a story here. There's a ton of literature going back in history on this one. And it's 110% sequel.

 

[Job 33:6]

Also, I've been watching your conversation with TruthPls, and no offense and with all respect, but you are comparing totally different genres of books.

Most of Job is a conversation among 3 ancient guys. They lived before Moses. Probably before Joseph even. Of course they had wacky ideas. God doesn't actually speak until Job 38, and then He basically mocks their cosmology.

God doesn't mock their cosmology in Job. But the point is that Job is embedded in that cosmological worldview.

Amos and Ezekiel are prophets. They are seeing visions. Exodus 24:9-10 is also a vision. And they are not visions of our physical earth, they are visions of the spiritual world.

Just because they are having prophetic visions doesn't automatically make their visions disappear. Amos 9:6 isn't about a vision either. And the psalmist, proverbs, job, Isaiah etc. They all describe the same cosmology. The Hebrew word in Ezekiel is the same Hebrew word in Genesis and elsewhere as well.

You've quoted Psalms before - that's poetic language.

Poetry still has meaning. You can't just act like the psalmists words no longer have meaning just because they're poetic.

Proverbs 8 is a chapter where wisdom speaks. It is a figurative chapter, because wisdom, as we know it, is not a person and it cannot speak.

Call it what you want, it still describes ancient near east cosmology. I never said it wasn't figurative. I'm just saying, this text is very clearly describing ancient near east cosmology.

Proverbs 8:22 wisdom says that she was the first thing the Lord created, and then she goes on to say that she was there when the Lord created everything. She uses near-east cosmology to communicate a point - I, wisdom, know how the world was made, I was there when it was made. This verse is not to be taken literally.

Great, so you acknowledge the ancient near east cosmology in the text. I appreciate that.

I never said the verse was to be taken literally. I'm not a flat earther. I'm just saying, literally or poetically, the text is describing an ancient cosmology.

Genesis is an entirely different book. It has both literal and figurative words, but the main purpose is a historic record of the beginning (Genesis).

Ah no? You can't rationally say "well books A, B, C, D, and E are all poetic and describe ancient near east cosmology" but then simultaneously ignore Genesis that describes the same things. The waters above, the windows opening and closing in the heavens, the water being moved to reveal dry land.

Many of the passages in Job and Psalms and Proverbs, they're all saying the same things that Genesis is, theyre referencing Genesis. And you can't just pull Genesis out of its context. Genesis is just as ancient of the text as any of these others.

Moses just led a whole bunch of people out of Egypt to re-start God's chosen nation. They've been around Egyptian culture and theology for 400 years. They need to be reminded the truth of where they came from, who God is, and how they came to be a chosen nation. Like you said, it's not a science textbook. It's not physics or biology (though it has a bit of both) - it's history.

Yea that's fine. I agree that the Earth isn't actually flat sitting on pillars, but at the end of the day, the text is describing an ancient cosmology. Regardless of how you shake that out, if you view it as poetry or figurative, or if you recognize that it's more reference rather than Revelation, that's all fine I have no problem with that.

But no matter what way you shake it, at the end of the day the text is describing an ancient cosmology, in Genesis is not separate from this. Quite the opposite, Genesis displays ancient cosmology very blatantly.

 

[BeyondET]

Just circling back to this. I started looking up these verses. Here's what I found:

Genesis 5:1 - repeats Genesis 1:27 and mentions Adam as part of the same story
Genesis 6:9 - is the teledoth.

Would that place the garden in gen 2 on the sixth day along with the trees mentioned?

 

[Job 33:6]

Also, I'm pretty sure no honest person can read Genesis 7;11 and 8;2 about windows opening and closing in the sky, releasing and restraining water, or God blowing into Adams nostrils (God doesn't have lungs), and sincerely claim that Genesis itself does not contain poetic language just as Job or Psalms or of the Prophets etc.

 

[olgamc]

The narrative after the teledoth does not retell the narrative before the teledoth. The stories are about Cain and Seth. Two different stories about two different people.

But happening in the overlapping chronological time

Genesis 6:11 and 12 is sequel. It's not retelling the narrative of the nephelim. The narrative of the nephelim comes before the narrative of the flood. Id recommend reading the book of Enoch.

Right, but they overlap.

A narrative about shems descendants is not a retelling of the table of nations, nor the tower of Babel. These are different narratives. There is no retelling happening here.

Right, but they overlap. And look carefully at Genesis 10:22-25 and Genesis 11:10-17. Same people or different people?

Chapter 24 is about Abraham, predominantly. Then after the teledoth, the focus is on Ishmael, after Abraham's death. That's a sequel. It's not retelling the story of Abraham. It's after Abraham dies.

Right. Neither is Genesis 2 a retelling of Genesis 1. It is a sequel. Genesis 1 was about creation, from start to finish. Genesis 2 was about the fall. But they overlap.

The second teledoth, in verse 19 does backup a bit with Abraham's sons, but this isn't a retelling of the same narrative. The focus shifts from Ishmael to Isaac and Jacob. So it's not a retelling.

The focus shifts from creation to fall. And they overlap.

None retell the same story that is being suggested of Genesis 2 and 1.

Think about it. People are trying to say that Genesis chapter 2 is retelling day 6.

No. Most of Genesis 2 happens after day 6, and I would even say after day 7. But creation of Adam happens day 6.

None of the examples above fit that bill.

All of the examples above fill that bill. "That bill" being that they overlap. The end of the section and the beginning of the next section is the same period of time, retold, sometimes with more details or different details. The narrative changes focus, yes. So the end of previous narrative gets repeated with the new focus, and then the story continues.

 

[olgamc]

You should check out the book of the giants, the book of Enoch, and lookup "reversing hermon" for the Genesis 6 narrative. It's absolutely not retelling a story here. There's a ton of literature going back in history on this one. And it's 110% sequel.

So God destroyed the world twice? First after nephilim and then with the flood?

 

[olgamc]

Would that place the garden in gen 2 on the sixth day along with the trees mentioned?

Hey BeyondET. Trees were created on day 3. Garden was planted on day 6 or later.

 

[olgamc]

Also, I'm pretty sure no honest person can read Genesis 7;11 and 8;2 about windows opening and closing in the sky, releasing and restraining water, or God blowing into Adams nostrils (God doesn't have lungs), and sincerely claim that Genesis itself does not contain poetic language just as Job or Psalms or of the Prophets etc.

Sure it does. But it's not the primary focus of Genesis. Just like historic accuracy is not the primary focus of Psalms or Prophets.

 

[BeyondET]

Hey BeyondET. Trees were created on day 3. Garden was planted on day 6 or later.

Hey olgamc, that's interesting, Eve came along after the naming of the animals in the garden where the knowledge tree was located. Where would that fit with verses after the seventh if the tree wasn't part of the sixth day?. I'm assuming it wouldn't because of the evil side or maybe so a dead leaf mantis around.

 

[olgamc]

Genesis displays ancient cosmology very blatantly.

Ok. I don't see it, but ok. Let me tell you a real story. I was praying, and I asked God who should I pray for. In my imagination I saw my dad's face. It was crawling with black snakes, they were crawling in and out of his eyes and ears and mouth. I was pretty creeped out! I asked God what it meant. As soon as I asked, I knew the answer - it meant that my dad was listening to the devil, looking at things from the devil, and speaking things of the devil. God wanted me to pray about that.

Many years later my friend told me that her friend had a similar vision about someone else, with the similar answer from God about what it meant.

I don't know my friend's friend. We never talked, we don't go to the same church or even to the same denomination. Neither of us have heard of near-east cosmology (well, actually, I don't know about her, but I certainly didn't until this debate). We both saw the same vision and it meant the same thing. And it did not mean that our loved one's face was literally crawling with snakes.

So just because people have similar visions does not mean that those visions came from some -ology. Maybe they came from the same source, and maybe the -ology came from the same source too? How did near-east cosmology develop to begin with?

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure it does. But it's not the primary focus of Genesis. Just like historic accuracy is not the primary focus of Psalms or Prophets.

Who ever said that historic accuracy was the focus of Genesis chapter 1?

The context is what it is. Genesis blatantly describes ancient near east cosmology. The waters above. The windows in the sky opening and closing. The revealing of the primordial mound. Earth starting out formless and void, god resting on the 7th day. The firmament separating waters from waters. The contrast between heaven and earth. Having light created before the sun. Having the wind hovering over the face of the deep.

These are all concepts, among many many more, observed in ancient near east texts of surrounding nations. And their writings and artwork of cosmology all universally depict an ancient perspective.

Genesis is not cosmologically unique. And Genesis describes the same concepts as other old testament books as well. So it's not even that strange that Genesis would say what other old testament texts also say. That's the old testament in its context.

 

[olgamc]

Hey olgamc, that's interesting, Eve came along after the naming of the animals in the garden where the knowledge tree was located. Where would that fit with verses after the seventh if the tree wasn't part of the sixth day?. I'm assuming it wouldn't because of the evil side or maybe so.View attachment 344499

Day 3 - God makes plants.
Day 5 - God makes fish and birds.
Day 6 - God makes land animals. Then God makes Adam. Then God plants a garden, including the two trees. Then God brings animals to Adam. Then God makes Eve.
Day 7 - God rests.

At some point after Adam and Eve were both created, Adam and Eve eat from the tree. I am guessing it's after day 7.