Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

So here is where we've come.

Lucy, would not necessarily be sinless. However according to Romans 5:13, sin is only charged when there is law. And so It's not clear that Lucy would be judged despite possibly being a sinner.

So the question becomes, is the creation of sinful people, a contradiction of God's good character or a contradiction of God calling creation "very good" or a contradiction of mankind being made in God's image.

And I would say "no" to all of the above.

It was not good when Adam was alone = not about morality.

The imago dei = not about mortality, moreso about ruling and subduing. What people are to do, and it's something that defines all people, including you and me, so Lucy being in the image of God is no more a contradiction than anyone else being in His image just the same.

Etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

But Job 33:6, don't you see what you are doing? You are taking Paul's words and deciding the context in which they apply. So you take Romans 1 where Paul specifically says "from the creation of the world", and you say that it doesn't apply to pre-Adam, but then you take Paul 3, where Paul specifically says "from Adam to Moses", and say that it does apply to pre-Adam. How are you deciding that?

Same with Genesis. You take a creation account and you decide that it is definitely not science, not even a little bit. But then you take the same account and decide that it is definitely fully and completely near-east cosmology. Why are you doing that?

After I wrote this, I checked out some links posted by tonychanyt and it led me to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/BibleVerseCommentary/comments/s77m1d/_/hu0dlbt
That person sounds a lot like you, and there is one quote that I really like: "The text uses real people with a blend of Myth to convey certain truths." Truths like: God made everything, God made things in 6 days, Adam and Eve were made in God's image, Adam and Eve were the first people who sinned, and they will have an offspring who will defeat sin.

And the truth that Paul is trying to convey is that through Adam and Eve all of us sinned, and the offspring who defeats sin is Jesus.

And neither Paul nor Moses are talking about Adam's grandma. Grandma is a new idea, she is a logical deduction made purely from scientific observations. So in order to include grandma as a possibility, we need to examine this idea from both views - science and theology. In order for grandma to have a chance, she needs to not contradict what the Bible says. And she does, as I tried to describe in my previous posts.

Also, I don't think that Lucy's existence is a modern deduction. Ancient near east texts, I believe universally as far as what I've seen, involve the creation of mankind as a population, not just two individuals. And that's what Genesis says. God made humanity in Genesis 1, not just Adam and Eve.

So I would consider this the actual original understanding of the text.

But I would say that, because ancient near east texts have been hidden in the caves of the dead sea scrolls and elsewhere, for this reason, early church fathers didn't write about these ideas. Because they didn't have the dead sea scrolls. In which case, some of these ideas are sort of "new" in a way because we didn't have them 100 years ago. But simultaneously this concept is actually really ancient and we are uncovering it now, in the last 50 years or so predominantly.

So, it's definitely not a modern invention. It's actually really ancient, though it is compatible well with modern science (not surprisingly) despite the text in and of itself actually being pre-scientific. Identifying a flat earth cosmology in the Bible actually makes the Bible compatible with science, because it informs us that the Bible isn't speaking scientifically. In contrast to people who actually think that earth is flat because of the Bible, which contradicts science. If that makes sense.

 

[Job 33:6]

They were not held accountable to the Mosaic Law, people were held accountable for laws that had been established before the Mosaic Law which is why death came into the world, why man was cast out of the Garden of Eden, and why God flooded the entire earth killing everyone except Noah and his family. Not to mention the other numerous punishments that were given to people for their transgressions before Exodus. Furthermore I forgot to mention that your whole purpose for establishing that sin existed before the fall was to justify death before the fall and I should’ve also pointed out in my previous post that Paul says that death reigned from Adam to Moses, not before Adam. In fact there’s not a single mention of anyone dying before Adam in the entire Bible.

Well death obviously didn't actually stop happening at Moses, so it's not talking about physical death.

Also, numbers 13:33, there were survivors of the flood, the descendents of the nephelim.

 

[truthpls]

I am not talking about the evolution of man. See my OP for the definition.

You said this

"I use the term evolution biologically and technically. It describes the process by which populations of organisms change over time through successive generations. It is driven by natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, and gene flow."
It all depends on how much time we are talking about. If it is known and observed and verified time, fine.

 

[truthpls]

Also, I don't think that Lucy's existence is a modern deduction. Ancient near east texts, I believe universally as far as what I've seen, involve the creation of mankind as a population, not just two individuals. And that's what Genesis says. God made humanity in Genesis 1, not just Adam and Eve.

Nothing like that actually. He made a man. Breathed life into HIM. Formed HIM. Put the man to sleep and took a bone from him. Then He made a woman from that rib or bone. Very specific

 

[Job 33:6]

Nothing like that actually. He made a man. Breathed life into HIM. Formed HIM. Put the man to sleep and took a bone from him. Then He made a woman from that rib or bone. Very specific

Yea and in Genesis 1, Adam is never actually mentioned. It says that God made humanity or mankind.

 

[truthpls]

Yea and in Genesis 1, Adam is never actually mentioned. It says that God made humanity or mankind.

No. It says He formed a man. Then a woman from that man. That man and woman were a kind.

 

[Job 33:6]

No. It says He formed a man. Then a woman from that man. That man and woman were a kind.

The word is Adam in Hebrew, it's humanity. Or mankind. Unless you think that Adam was a hermaphrodite with both male and female parts. It's talking about mankind as a whole.

Also, the passage says "Let us make mankind" in our image.

‭‭
‭‭Genesis 1:26 KJVAAE‬‬
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Here is the KJV for example. And it says let us make man in our image, and let *them* have dominion.

Them as in, it's not talking about a personal name Adam. It's talking about mankind as a whole. Including you and me.

You should be aware that you have been created in the image of God.

For those who have skipped grade school grammar class, "them" is a plural. Meaning that "man" is plural, ie mankind.

 

[Job 33:6]

No. It says He formed a man. Then a woman from that man. That man and woman were a kind.

and most translations cover this. And clarify for people.

Here is NASB for example:
‭‭Genesis 1:26 NASB2020‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.”

‭‭Genesis 1:26-27 NET‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.” [27] God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.

‭‭Genesis 1:26 NRSV‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

‭‭Genesis 1:26 NIV‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Etc.

Sorry if you've never noticed this before.

 

[tonychanyt]

You said this

"I use the term evolution biologically and technically. It describes the process by which populations of organisms change over time through successive generations. It is driven by natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, and gene flow."
It all depends on how much time we are talking about. If it is known and observed and verified time, fine.

Good point.

How would you define evolution?

 

[truthpls]

The word is Adam in Hebrew, it's humanity. Or mankind.

It doesn't matter what the word was. We are told a man was created and from him a woman and that these are the first people. Eve, mother of all living. That was all there was to mankind at the time

Unless you think that Adam was a hermaphrodite with both male and female parts. It's talking about mankind as a whole.

No we have the story, created male and female.

Also, the passage says "Let us make mankind" in our image.

So?

Here is the KJV for example. And it says let us make man in our image, and let *them* have dominion.

Them as in Adam and Eve and their children

Them as in, it's not talking about a personal name Adam. It's talking about mankind as a whole. Including you and me.

As just explained, Adam and Eve and kids is THEM

You should be aware that you have been created in the image of God.

For those who have skipped grade school grammar class, "them" is a plural. Meaning that "man" is plural, ie mankind.

For those who missed it here, Adam and Eve and kids are more than one person.

 

[Job 33:6]

It doesn't matter what the word was. We are told a man was created and from him a woman and that these are the first people. Eve, mother of all living. That was all there was to mankind at the time

No we have the story, created male and female.

So?

Them as in Adam and Eve and their children

As just explained, Adam and Eve and kids is THEM

For those who missed it here, Adam and Eve and kids are more than one person.

Genesis 1 never mentions Adam and Eve. You're just adding stuff to the Bible that isn't there. Cain and Abel aren't mentioned until chapter 4. Maybe you don't read the Bible too often, but chapter 4 doesn't come before chapter 1 chronologically in any book. Adam and eves kids weren't even born yet.

 

[truthpls]

and most translations cover this. And clarify for people.

Here is NASB for example:
‭‭Genesis 1:26 NASB2020‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.”

‭‭Genesis 1:26-27 NET‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.” [27] God created humankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.

‭‭Genesis 1:26 NRSV‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

‭‭Genesis 1:26 NIV‬‬
[26] Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Etc.

Sorry if you've never noticed this before.

You don't even have a point, what is to notice? God spoke of Adam and Eve children to come as them. Big deal.

 

[truthpls]

Genesis 1 never mentions Adam and Eve. You're just adding stuff to the Bible that isn't there.

Gen 2 gives the names of what was already finished and done in chapter 1. That is how we know their names.

 

[truthpls]

Good point.

How would you define evolution?

That depends on the context. I could define it as basically a lot of adapting. But generally people think of the whole package when the word is used. Man from the pond sort of thing.

 

[Job 33:6]

Gen 2 gives the names of what was already finished and done in chapter 1. That is how we know their names.

Nobody is talking about chapter 2. Were talking about in the beginning, chapter 1. Chapter 2 is not retelling chapter 1.

 

[Job 33:6]

You don't even have a point, what is to notice? God spoke of Adam and Eve children to come as them. Big deal.

Nope. Adam and Eve and their children are never mentioned in chapter 1. You're assuming that chapter 1 is talking about them, however the text simply says "humanity" or "mankind" more broadly.

Look at the other days of Genesis.
God creates fish. Population. Not just 2.
God creates birds. Population. Not just 2.
God creates the stars. Population. Not just 2.
God creates the land animals. Population. Not just 2.

Then God creates...Humanity.

You can't just awkwardly cram Adam and Eve in the chapter when they are never mentioned.

 

[olgamc]

Also, I don't think that Lucy's existence is a modern deduction. Ancient near east texts, I believe universally as far as what I've seen, involve the creation of mankind as a population, not just two individuals. And that's what Genesis says. God made humanity in Genesis 1, not just Adam and Eve.

So I would consider this the actual original understanding of the text.

But I would say that, because ancient near east texts have been hidden in the caves of the dead sea scrolls and elsewhere, for this reason, early church fathers didn't write about these ideas. Because they didn't have the dead sea scrolls. In which case, some of these ideas are sort of "new" in a way because we didn't have them 100 years ago. But simultaneously this concept is actually really ancient and we are uncovering it now, in the last 50 years or so predominantly.

So, it's definitely not a modern invention. It's actually really ancient, though it is compatible well with modern science (not surprisingly) despite the text in and of itself actually being pre-scientific. Identifying a flat earth cosmology in the Bible actually makes the Bible compatible with science, because it informs us that the Bible isn't speaking scientifically. In contrast to people who actually think that earth is flat because of the Bible, which contradicts science. If that makes sense.

Ok, so let me reiterate some of what you said over the course of our discussion.

Romans 1:20 - " For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." - applies only to demon worshippers and does not apply to all people, correct?

Romans 2:6 - "God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” and Romans 2:12 - "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." - Only apply to Jews and Gentiles and not to pre-Adam people.

Romans 3:10 - "There is no one righteous, not even one;" - also applies to Jews and Gentiles and does not apply to all people, e.g. Adam's grandma?

Romans 3:23-24 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." - also does not apply to all people, correct?

And you also say that Adam's grandma was a person like you and me, made in God's image, but not a moral being? Because being made in God's image simply means to "rule and subdue"?

So pardon my question, but, are there any verses in the Bible that have to do with sin and salvation that do apply to pre-Adam people? Does John 3:16-18 apply?

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok, so let me reiterate some of what you said over the course of our discussion.

Romans 1:20 - " For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." - applies only to demon worshippers and does not apply to all people, correct?

Romans 2:6 - "God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” and Romans 2:12 - "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." - Only apply to Jews and Gentiles and not to pre-Adam people.

Romans 3:10 - "There is no one righteous, not even one;" - also applies to Jews and Gentiles and does not apply to all people, e.g. Adam's grandma?

Romans 3:23-24 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." - also does not apply to all people, correct?

And you also say that Adam's grandma was a person like you and me, made in God's image, but not a moral being? Because being made in God's image simply means to "rule and subdue"?

I'm fine with Romans 1:20, even though its addressing enemies of God, I don't mind the conclusion that general revelation of God is available to all people.

Romans 2:6, Paul is referring to the saints, "to those who by patience in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality". I don't think we can use this one because it implies awareness of the Law. Lucy wouldn't seek immortality for example because she wouldn't know of it.

Romans 3:10, I'm fine with Lucy being under sin. Same with 3:23.

And yes, being made in the Image of God does not mean being made morally perfect and without sin.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok, so let me reiterate some of what you said over the course of our discussion.

Romans 1:20 - " For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." - applies only to demon worshippers and does not apply to all people, correct?

Romans 2:6 - "God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” and Romans 2:12 - "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." - Only apply to Jews and Gentiles and not to pre-Adam people.

Romans 3:10 - "There is no one righteous, not even one;" - also applies to Jews and Gentiles and does not apply to all people, e.g. Adam's grandma?

Romans 3:23-24 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." - also does not apply to all people, correct?

And you also say that Adam's grandma was a person like you and me, made in God's image, but not a moral being? Because being made in God's image simply means to "rule and subdue"?

So pardon my question, but, are there any verses in the Bible that have to do with sin and salvation that do apply to pre-Adam people? Does John 3:16-18 apply?

Here are some of the thoughts I have on the Image of God.

The passage reads "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth". ESV

So, the imago dei is directly associated with actions and responsibilities. To subdue and rule. It defines who we are and our purpose. We are to do on earth what He has done in His creation. He creates order and pushes back the sea and brings rest and peace. And mankind is to do the same. In His image. And we reflect Him and his actions while He communes with us in His eternal rest.

That's roughly how I would view the imago dei. But there's nothing about it that negates us having sin. We can still be sinful and carry out this function.

I'm not aware of passages in scripture that explicitly suggest that sinful people are not in Gods image, or anything like that for example. We are all in His image, even if we are sinful.

So Lucy, she can be sinful, but still be in the imago dei. Or created in the Image of God, when God chooses to create mankind in His image.