Can we reach a compromise regarding abortion?

[Vicomte13]

Discussion was civil at first, but when we have people saying that others will be thrown in the lake of fire and that they are murderers that is going too far.

"We" have "others" saying that?
The man who said that murderers would be thrown into the Lake of Fire was Jesus Christ, speaking from the Throne Room of God.
If that Truth, spoken TWICE on the last page of the Bible, cannot be repeated directly and verbatim from Christ's own mouth on a website entitled "Christian Forums" then the title of the site would be false.
But actually, what Jesus said CAN be said.
So I will repeat God again: Murderers will be thrown into the lake of fire.
And I'll repeat it two more times, once each for Father and Holy Spirit (as I've quoted the Son already):
Murderers will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Murderers will be thrown into the lake of fire.

That's not an opinion, it's a fact. It is stated TWICE, on the last page of the Bible.

Are abortionists murderers?
Of course they are!

The same God who said twice on the last page of the Bible, in the same Bible, dated human life from the begetting by the father, and prescribed death for the man who strikes a pregnant woman, causing her to deliver, if the woman or child are killed.

When the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and Christ was conceived, did God not become man at that instant?

Of course he did.

Mary consented, and it was done.

Why are Christians squeamish about God? Why are Christians squeamish about life? Is it because we are out of tune with the world? Of course we are! The world loves the darkness and hates the light and does not comprehend it. Of course the world is going to hate anything that puts a bridle in the mouth of unhinged sexuality.

No abortion need ever happen: keep your legs closed and your parts in your pants. Pretty simple. Before the Pill, most people did that. Abortion was illegal, and there was not NEARLY as much of it as there is now. In those parts of the world that are more faithful to God than America, abortion is still ilegal. Sure, there are still murderers who procure them, but a lot fewer.

We all have adopted members of our family, and once upon a time Americans didn't have to go buy babies in China and Brazil, because unexpected and unwanted pregnancies were mostly not terminated, and mostly born, and then given up for adoption. There are millions of adopted children born in America from back then. Today, few. We murder them in the womb and import.

Does this offend you? Well, it SHOULD offend you - not that I am telling you the truth, but that infanticide has been enacted into law in order to make it easier for people to be sexually incontinent. Murder should offend you more than simply quoting the words of Jesus, and quoting the Bible.

You opened your thread by asking if compromise on abortion was possible. No, it is not, no more than compromise with any other holocaust of innocents that kills 2 million a year. You don't compromise with Satan. You don't bargain with him. You admit no parley. You resist him and you fight him. You cannot win alone - he is too strong - but if you stand for God and his word, God will reinforce you.

If you just cave on the basic sanctity of life in order to get along with babykillers you run out on God and hand the world over to demons.

And that is the wrong thing to do.
Quoting Jesus and making everybody horribly uncomfortable, as I have, is the right thing to do.
Do you WANT to be thrown into the Lake of Fire?
No?
Then DON'T KILL PEOPLE.
Babies are people from the first page of the Bible to the last.
Babies in the womb are babies.
Stop putting scales on your own eyes. You really do have to choose between God and Satan, and on the matter of abortion, it is a very stark black and white choice. God made it that way. Don't throw your life away to get along with atheists.

 

[redleghunter]

Interesting if it is in there. My understanding is that under Jewish law life begins with the first breath, and that up to the moment of birth priority is to be given to saving the life of the pregnant woman over that of the fetus.

Perhaps under post 2nd temple Jewish tradition but not God's law.

 

[Kylie]

Any person who says "I have the right to murder a baby" is a monster.

A fertilised egg is not a baby, just like how an acorn is not an oak tree.

 

[Kylie]

Not to mention the absolute mockery and condescension the non-Christians here are having towards anyone pro-life. Just because the pro-lifers act dogmatic doesn't mean they have to as well.

I find pro-lifers tend to really be pro-birth. The Republicans who push so much to close places like Planned Parenthood (even though abortions are a tiny part of what they do, and are not done with taxpayer money), are also the ones that vote against raising the minimum wage (which would help single mothers afford food and healthcare for their kids), and cut back on the help that such parents need.

 

[Kylie]

Last I checked we are not trees.

Do you know what an analogy is?

 

[Kylie]

We do it all the time, from forced medical care to forced psychiatric care,
to intervention for drug use or attempted suicide. When there is another
life involved, then it gets even stricter. No matter how you want to phrase
it, from conception forward, there is a second life inside the mother. One
that should have just as much a right to grow and live as her.

Forced medical care? Cal me crazy, but doesn't the patient have the right to choose their own treatment? Even if that means foregoing ALL treatment? Isn't that why we let Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions?

 

[redleghunter]

No, murder is the illegal killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Abortion does no meet the definition.

How do you conclude such? Do you not accept the scientific determination that at conception we have a distinct human being created?

 

[redleghunter]

Do you know what an analogy is?

I know a valid one when I see it.

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks Vicomte... I'm fascinated by what you've presented too... I did not know your point on "begat" and it is a valuable piece of info that I think I will plagiarize for future use! Thanks again and keep up the fight for life and faith.

Yes @Vicomte13 is correct. His main point of how idols are created in our minds to sugar coat disobedience to God is piercing testimony.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't and I don't think most Christians or Muslims agree on a God

Christians: Jesus is God
Muslims: Jesus is not God

Easy. The Muslims who our neighbors who we love have a partial revelation or faulty revelation.

 

[redleghunter]

I am using proper terms.
Legal terms depend entirely on the law in question.
For the purposes of this discussion I am focusing on the only law that ultimately matters: God's, as revealed in Scripture.
There, this distinction between "legal" and "illegal" killing is not made.
God simply prohibits "ratsaq" ("phoneis" in Greek). This term is used throughout the Bible for intentional or reckless killing.

He states one exception for justice: the man who sheds blood - by man must his blood be shed.
So, although the execution of a killer is a ratsaq, an intentional killing, it is permitted by God to punish killers.

Jesus states one implicit exception for self-defense when he admonishes the Apostles to buy swords after his departure.

And that's the law revealed by God for everybody who wasn't a Jew in ancient Israel has: do not kill, except in punishment of killers; and if you have to defend yourself with weapons against attackers, that is ok.

That's the full range of authority to kill that God gives us Gentiles.

So, what are we talking about on this thread? Abortion.

What is abortion? It is the intentional killing of a wholly innocent human being, not in self defense. It is ratsaq in Hebrew, phoneis in Greek.
In English: murder.

I am using the terms correctly. Abortion is murder. Abortion providers are murderers. Women who procure abortions are murderesses.

Our law currently authorizes them to commit murder at will during the first trimester, and limits these murders in the later two. That is the majority opinion in the country. It is evil and should be changed. There can be no moral compromise on infanticide. It the majority wants it, they must be frustrated.

Currently, they win, which means that evil prevails on the matter, for now.
That, in turn, means that the nation is cursed by all of the shedding of innocent blood. We should not expect to have good times going forward.

I read the OP and the request of the OP owner to shut down this thread. I disagree. You are arguing for a valid poll answer #1.

Shutting down this thread means you hit a nerve most Christians don't want to hear.

 

[Ratjaws]

Nor did Common Law murder.



Have you actually read the Roe decison?



I love the way you keep pointing out the word "killing." The Bible tells us that those whose name is not written in the Book of Life will be thrown in the Lake of Fire. That includes liars, adulters, etc. That's why Jesus died for our sins.



One does not "commit" abortion. One can "perform" an abortion, but not "commit" abortion.

Archivist,
I have not only read the majority opinion for Roe vs. Wade but I have met Norma Mccorvey, who was the blunt instrument used by progressives to enact the immoral law we have governing abortion. Norma in fact has stated many times in public she was mislead and used. She didn't even want an abortion but anti-life lawers convinced her this would solve her unplanned pregnancy problem. She has since repented of her abortion and involvement in Roe and converted not only to the Christian faith, but is a practicing Catholic. She knows now and cries over the harm she has done to many many women who are now mislead to believe not just that killling their child is an answer... but the only answer. In actuality there is a huge network of prolife people ready and working to help pregnant women in need with finances, medical, educational, and even housing. This network helps a woman to decide whether to keep their child or adopt it out to the many many waiting couples who would like nothing more than to have the child.

As for liars, adulterers and such this thread that you've started is primarily about abortion and as such murder. You seem to be taking the wrong side on the issue even though you ask this very important question concening compromise. Start another thread if you want to discuss these other sins but here we prefer to stick to the subject... something liberal progressives and the anti-life crowd has a problem doing.

We use the term commit to refer to an act all the time in the english language so what is your problem with it? Since abortion is primarily an act it is proper to place it with the word commit. Maybe your stance is against life in which case use of such a term seems more offensive to your case but alas, that is the reality of what we are talking about here. Abortion is an evil act, and as Mother Teresa once quipped, it is an unnecessary evil that not only brings persons down but also countries that support it.

One fundmental message in scripture is that God loves his creation, and he singles out human beings as being second from the top just below angels. We also find in sacred scripture that the angels will eventually be judged by human beings who will be lifted above them by God's grace. We will live in a glorified state if we make it to heaven, which by the way, as Pope John Paul II pointed out, is more than just a place. Heaven is primarily a relationship with God and so hell is loss in some way, to some degree, of this closeness to our Creator. The point here being God loves each and every person and desires them to all have a chance in this life to choose to be with Him or not. Think for a moment... how can a person taken unjustly from this life think? Their chance to exercise their will is cut short by being aborted and they have no say in the matter (for those who claim we need abortion to prevent a person from coming into this "terrible world"). How will they obtain sanctifying grace which is necessary to enter heaven if they are prematurely kicked out of this world?

Again the point is human life is sacred because God says so. He created us and has final say in the matter. If this is true then the means by which a person comes into existence must also be sacred and as such human sexuality should not be trivialized as our pornographic prostituting culture makes it. So not only is killing of an innocent person through abortion wrong but the act of interfering with the natural biological process of human sexuality is too! So this understanding also attacks the idea of sterilization and contraception. God wants us all to willingly participate with Him in the act of creation but donating the body material while He infuses a soul. This cooperation pleases God so much He is willing to share that joy with the couple through sexual intimacy and pleasure.

The bottom line is our whole society... even other societies across the world are so confused that we should not follow them. It is better for us to join God and in the end obtain grace through the sacraments, particularily that of marriage, and end in heaven for this good work that can only be done in true faith.

 

[redleghunter]

When people start printing obituaries for the 50% of pregnancies that naturally terminate in the first month of pregnancy, then I will take you seriously.

Irrelevant

 

[Armoured]

I presented such to you three times.

No, you presented three examples of you shoehorning your interpretation into some passages that meant nothing of the sort.

 

[redleghunter]

From a secular standpoint, it makes sense to allow abortion at all times.

The crime rate has been quite dramatically reduced by abortion. The poverty stricken and desperate are the most likely to have abortions, and their children are the most likely to commit crimes. So, nipping the criminals in the bud is the best way to keep society safe, to reduce the cost of imprisonment, and to reduce the suffering of humans we can see.

From a secular standpoint, government funding of abortions and full adolescent rights to abortion without parental notification makes the most sense, because teenagers who get pregnant have the highest poverty rates, and those children are very likely to suffer and become burdens. Therefore, nipping them in the bud potentially saves the lives of the teenagers. But if they have to admit what they do to parents, they might not. Worse, they might kill babies that are born. Secularly speaking, it makes the most sense to abort them as early as possible.

From a secular standpoint, the morning after pill should be routinely available without a prescription at drug stores and school nurses, and contraception should be distributed for free at schools.

From a secular standpoint, the more poor, unwanted or sickly humans that can be culled from the herd in the womb, the better.

From a secular standpoint, the euthanizing of the terminally ill and suffering, "vegetables" and those born with deformities or hopelessly crushed in accidents saves immense suffering, expense and esthetically improves the overall appearance of the population.

From a secular standpoint, once people reach a certain age, administering pain care makes sense, but organ transplants or extraordinary efforts to heal them do not. The last two years of life are where we spend a huge portion of the medical budget, to extend the lives of old people who no longer work. Economically and socially it makes the most sense to ease their passing.

From a secular standpoint, all murderers, child molesters, rapists, armed robbers, and permanently ruined drug addicts should be executed, either because of their violence, or the high recidivism rates, or because the nature of their crimes makes them unemployable, rendering them a permanent burden on society. Prison is expensive, swift execution is cheap, and there is a world full of talent that wants to immigrate to the US to take their place. From a secular standpoint it makes sense to cull the herd of the violent, the drug-addled, and the depraved, save tons of money, and get better people to fill the hole left by their elimination.

From a secular standpoint it makes sense to fully harvest the organs of death row inmates, because there are many living people of working age who need transplants. Eliminating a criminal to save a highly-educated, high-earning, highly taxed individual makes great logical sense.

From a secular standpoint, the enslavement of non-violent criminals makes good economic sense.

A devastating presentation of eugenics.

 

[redleghunter]

No, you presented three examples of you shoehorning your interpretation into some passages that meant nothing of the sort.

You now have a Catholic @Vicomte13 who just laid out what I presented to you weeks ago.

There's nothing to interpret from the direct words from God.

 

[redleghunter]

Kind of makes my point.

Not really. You don't have to print anything if a child is not voluntarily aborted.

 

[Armoured]

You now have a Catholic @Vicomte13 who just laid out what I presented to you weeks ago.

There's nothing to interpret from the direct words from God.

The direct "words from God" don't say what you say they say.

 

[Armoured]

Not really. You don't have to print anything if a child is not voluntarily aborted.

Why not? Why is the life of the child lost to spontaneous abortion less noteworthy than that of the child lost to voluntary abortion?

 

[redleghunter]

Well then call the cops on me. Because by crushing that acord I violated the law, which states that I must seek council permission before removing any tree on my property.

"Excuse me, police? Yes, Kylie crushed an acorn and I demand that you arrest her!"

http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/live/trees/pruning-and-removing-trees

On the other hand, the Bible says that a person is not alive until they draw their first breath.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense. (SOURCE)

See also http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/3/19/1285933/-Bible-Life-Begins-at-Breath-Not-Conception

The Exodus reference is wrong. The word for miscarriage does not appear in the Hebrew.

The Talmud is not Scriptures. The Talmud seems to address more about privy demons than abortion.