• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Can we reach a compromise regarding abortion?

When should abortion be permitted?

  • Abortion should never be permitted

    Votes: 12 19.7%
  • Permitted, but only to protect the life or health of the pregnant woman

    Votes: 10 16.4%
  • Permitted, but only in cases of life or health of the pregnant woman or rape or incest

    Votes: 6 9.8%
  • Permitted at the descretion of the pregnant woman but only during the first trimester

    Votes: 11 18.0%
  • Permitted at the descretion of the pregnant woman at any tiime during the pregnancy

    Votes: 22 36.1%

  • Total voters
    61
Status
Not open for further replies.

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟112,089.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Sam,
Yes I disagree because one cannot intend to kill an innocent person... and even though there may be no heartbeat... even prior to the formation of the heart period... we must protect that person whose life started at fertilization. There is no room to fudge anywhere with human life without opening a floodgate of evil just as Roe vs. Wade did in 1973. Interestingly that "rare situation" you mention here without any definition is called an ectopic pregnancy. It is very very specific and the only situation to my limited medical knowledge that can be considered reason to separate the the mother and child prematurely. Even if there is another medical condition that would require an abortive act the intention of the doctor and others invovled MUST be to save both child and mother. We can never sanction the deliberate taking of any person's life whether in-uteran or after birth. We must have a consistent ethic or we have none at all. Unfortunately moral relativism rules the day right now but this can be changed with proper education and of course, it must be changed or we risk losing all our subsequent freedoms so dependent on life. I mean is everyone one blind to the power grab going on within our government right now? It is due to this fuzzy idea of morality that has been taught in our secular public schools for generations. I was blessed to avoid such miseducation because I was raised in Catholic school until 7th grade. I then was blessed by God with mentors, holy men and women who shaped my adult understanding in these matters and helped keep me from the moral confusion our society is saturated in.

How is sperm and egg a person, scientifically? I agree life begins at conception, but some secular pro lifers think otherwise. With a heartbeat they become alive.

What if the fetus dies as a side effect of triyng to save the mother, but it isnt directly killed?
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟108,837.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Does it make sense from a secular pro life standpoint?
From a secular standpoint, it makes sense to allow abortion at all times.

The crime rate has been quite dramatically reduced by abortion. The poverty stricken and desperate are the most likely to have abortions, and their children are the most likely to commit crimes. So, nipping the criminals in the bud is the best way to keep society safe, to reduce the cost of imprisonment, and to reduce the suffering of humans we can see.

From a secular standpoint, government funding of abortions and full adolescent rights to abortion without parental notification makes the most sense, because teenagers who get pregnant have the highest poverty rates, and those children are very likely to suffer and become burdens. Therefore, nipping them in the bud potentially saves the lives of the teenagers. But if they have to admit what they do to parents, they might not. Worse, they might kill babies that are born. Secularly speaking, it makes the most sense to abort them as early as possible.

From a secular standpoint, the morning after pill should be routinely available without a prescription at drug stores and school nurses, and contraception should be distributed for free at schools.

From a secular standpoint, the more poor, unwanted or sickly humans that can be culled from the herd in the womb, the better.

From a secular standpoint, the euthanizing of the terminally ill and suffering, "vegetables" and those born with deformities or hopelessly crushed in accidents saves immense suffering, expense and esthetically improves the overall appearance of the population.

From a secular standpoint, once people reach a certain age, administering pain care makes sense, but organ transplants or extraordinary efforts to heal them do not. The last two years of life are where we spend a huge portion of the medical budget, to extend the lives of old people who no longer work. Economically and socially it makes the most sense to ease their passing.

From a secular standpoint, all murderers, child molesters, rapists, armed robbers, and permanently ruined drug addicts should be executed, either because of their violence, or the high recidivism rates, or because the nature of their crimes makes them unemployable, rendering them a permanent burden on society. Prison is expensive, swift execution is cheap, and there is a world full of talent that wants to immigrate to the US to take their place. From a secular standpoint it makes sense to cull the herd of the violent, the drug-addled, and the depraved, save tons of money, and get better people to fill the hole left by their elimination.

From a secular standpoint it makes sense to fully harvest the organs of death row inmates, because there are many living people of working age who need transplants. Eliminating a criminal to save a highly-educated, high-earning, highly taxed individual makes great logical sense.

From a secular standpoint, the enslavement of non-violent criminals makes good economic sense.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,142
Visit site
✟98,015.00
Faith
Agnostic
What are they going to print? If you think about it number one sometimes the woman does not even KNOW, but more over in order to print an obit usually it has information that if someone is not even a third of the way to being born may not even be KNOWN yet.

Kind of makes my point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DogmaHunter
Upvote 0

Ratjaws

Active Member
Jul 1, 2003
272
37
69
Detroit, Michigan
Visit site
✟24,722.00
Faith
Catholic
It is your opinion that the world is ruled by the Christian God. That is not a view shared by the majority of humanity. It is certainly not a view shared by me.


Well, I have never killed a baby and I certainly don't advocate killing babies, or anyone else. I think the fact that we are OK with 10,000 Americans being murdered every year by guns to be a tragedy.

If you mean that I am OK with preventing conception or aborting a fetus, then yes, I'm OK with that. I have far more compassion for an adult woman than I have for a small cluster of cells.

And finally, I don't worry about your hellfire and brimstone at all.

Ecco,
They labeled Africans slaves as 3/5ths a person and considered it ok to hang them from a tree for no good reason at all. Now all the sudden we frown on this! Likewise for all who consider that life within a human woman's womb to be less than a person. In the end this will change but how many humans must "hang" via abortion before it does? You've chosen a position that is inconsistent with what the founders of this country thought when they listed those inalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. In doing so you undermine the value of your own life when in turn affects your liberties and happiness. If a government official can simply declare a person to not be a person, thereby denying them their protection of life, then they become the same kind of dictator the founders were setting up the American form of government against.

Vicomte need not invoke any scripture to make this point and the reason he does is precisely because this country was founded on Christian principles whether you like it or not. This is not to claim the founders were all Christians... not even that some were... but that they gave us a foundation based upon Christian thinking that saw all human life as infinitely valuable. On top of this you argue within a Christian forum claiming you cannot be affected by such thinking. So you haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to the protection of your own life and liberties. To take for granted the basis of these protection is to dismiss them altogether.

Likewise your compassion for an adult woman is nil since that woman must come through not just the birth canal but all the stages of life prior to it. It's interesting how your lack of recognition of life after death spills over into a lack of respect for life prior to death. The association is there yet you are blind by your anti-religious sentiment. Never-the-less you possess the same protection on your life as preborn persons should have and if the drift in American continues against life it will eventually effect more and more of us adults you so jealously guard. This movement toward the disorder of homosexuality as being equivelent to heterosexuality is not just short sighted but dangerous. In the future those who disagee with calling that disorder normal will be compelled to do so on pain of death. We already see the beginnings of this with the bakery owner who has been denied his livelihood because he would not make a wedding cake for a "same-sex couple."

What has been going on my whole life is a flipping around of normal and abnormal, an exchange of good and evil, and the consequent confusion such mindset brings. None of us live in a vacuum and eventually these ideas will affect all of us because as has been wisely said: ideas have cosequences. We carry out what we think mostly about and this sex-saturated culture we live in wants even more than what Nazi's had... their own kind of sexual perversion in concentration camps eventually morphed into a lack of respect for human life (and vice-versa). Americans were instrumental in stopping the Jewish holocaust only to find years later their children's children without memory of or stigma against these same kind of atrocities... just under different terms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Ratjaws

Active Member
Jul 1, 2003
272
37
69
Detroit, Michigan
Visit site
✟24,722.00
Faith
Catholic
Yep. I only chose 5 because there really isn't a functional difference between 4 and 5. Most everyone who gets late-term abortions is doing it for medical reasons, and I assume they would still be allowed to do so under 4 since they can at 2. Might as well strip away the red tape for these suffering families and go to 5, but it doesn't matter all that much. The options don't specify this, but that's basically the way it is now. They need medical evidence to get a late-term.

Cearbhall,
Speaking of specificity, what "medical reason" and "medical evidence" is there for separating the child who is dependent upon the mother for it's life, from the mother? Name one condition apart from an ectopic pregnancy and be specific???
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Ratjaws

Active Member
Jul 1, 2003
272
37
69
Detroit, Michigan
Visit site
✟24,722.00
Faith
Catholic
But "killer" does not appear on either list. Murder and killing are two different things.
Archivist,
To kill is a general term which implies also murder. Murder is more specific and means one takes a life unjustly, whether premeditated or not. To kill when defending oneself is not murder. Killing to defend other innocent persons is also not murder but a form of self-defense. These latter acts of killing are a duty of those who are capable of defending those who need it. Nor can legitimate killing in war be defined as murder, that is for those who are defending themselves or the group under attack. No where in the Christian bible does it forbid self-defense whether on a personal level or at the level of country. What is forbidden is unjustified taking of human life. That is always biblical murder. To accidentally take a life is not murder because one does not intend to do so. Yet there are nuances here because one can cause an accident from neglect. The bottom line is that murder is a specific subcategory of to kill and it must be intentional and/or thought through before hand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟108,837.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Vicomte need not invoke any scripture to make this point and the reason he does is precisely because this country was founded on Christian principles whether you like it or not.

The reason I quote Scripture is because it is true.
 
Upvote 0

Ratjaws

Active Member
Jul 1, 2003
272
37
69
Detroit, Michigan
Visit site
✟24,722.00
Faith
Catholic
No, it isn't. No one is talking about murdering anyone in this thread.
Archivist,
I have to agree with Vicomte... the subject you bring up concerning abortion (and compromise) is essentially about murdering an innocent and helpless person who happens to reside in their mother's womb. Those who justify abortion do so by dismissing the personhood and/or humanity of an unborn. Most say its just killing while the rest say it's not even that because it is just a blob of tissue or such. Those who condemn abortion do so on the ground it is a full fledged person being killed and since they are innocent of any crime (let alone sin) the act is one of murder. As for compromise one cannot ever say live and let live to an abortionist (or one who uses their services) because by definition they don't let live... they take an innocent and helpless life!
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Ratjaws

Active Member
Jul 1, 2003
272
37
69
Detroit, Michigan
Visit site
✟24,722.00
Faith
Catholic
The reason I quote Scripture is because it is true.
Vicomte,
Sorry I didn't mean to seem to disagree with you but rather was coming at the same thing from a different perspective apart from scripture. Stiill I agree with your implied point that in the end envoking scripture is necessary because divine revelation trumps all our other means to knowledge... although it does not dismiss valid reasoning or knowledge from natural revelation. It merely supports and clarifies. So amen to your point!
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
There are only three doctors in the country who perform late-term abortions...there's no shopping around. And no, they all are required to obtain medical evidence by law. Getting an abortion past viability is not an easy task, rest assured.
You'd think, if that were so, 100% of the Democrats in Congress would not fight tooth and nail to prevent laws against partial birth abortion but against killing the child after he or she's been delivered as well. Wouldn't you?
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
30,461
14,938
Seattle
✟1,123,211.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Archivist,
I have to agree with Vicomte... the subject you bring up concerning abortion (and compromise) is essentially about murdering an innocent and helpless person who happens to reside in their mother's womb. Those who justify abortion do so by dismissing the personhood and/or humanity of an unborn. Most say its just killing while the rest say it's not even that because it is just a blob of tissue or such. Those who condemn abortion do so on the ground it is a full fledged person being killed and since they are innocent of any crime (let alone sin) the act is one of murder. As for compromise one cannot ever say live and let live to an abortionist (or one who uses their services) because by definition they don't let live... they take an innocent and helpless life!

What definition of person do you use?
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
30,461
14,938
Seattle
✟1,123,211.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
You'd think, if that were so, 100% of the Democrats in Congress would not fight tooth and nail to prevent laws against partial birth abortion but against killing the child after he or she's been delivered as well. Wouldn't you?

Why would I think that simply because there are only three doctors that Democrats would not be against laws banning it? I do not see the logical connection there.
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
30,461
14,938
Seattle
✟1,123,211.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
From a secular standpoint, it makes sense to allow abortion at all times.

The crime rate has been quite dramatically reduced by abortion. The poverty stricken and desperate are the most likely to have abortions, and their children are the most likely to commit crimes. So, nipping the criminals in the bud is the best way to keep society safe, to reduce the cost of imprisonment, and to reduce the suffering of humans we can see.

From a secular standpoint, government funding of abortions and full adolescent rights to abortion without parental notification makes the most sense, because teenagers who get pregnant have the highest poverty rates, and those children are very likely to suffer and become burdens. Therefore, nipping them in the bud potentially saves the lives of the teenagers. But if they have to admit what they do to parents, they might not. Worse, they might kill babies that are born. Secularly speaking, it makes the most sense to abort them as early as possible.

From a secular standpoint, the morning after pill should be routinely available without a prescription at drug stores and school nurses, and contraception should be distributed for free at schools.

From a secular standpoint, the more poor, unwanted or sickly humans that can be culled from the herd in the womb, the better.

From a secular standpoint, the euthanizing of the terminally ill and suffering, "vegetables" and those born with deformities or hopelessly crushed in accidents saves immense suffering, expense and esthetically improves the overall appearance of the population.

From a secular standpoint, once people reach a certain age, administering pain care makes sense, but organ transplants or extraordinary efforts to heal them do not. The last two years of life are where we spend a huge portion of the medical budget, to extend the lives of old people who no longer work. Economically and socially it makes the most sense to ease their passing.

From a secular standpoint, all murderers, child molesters, rapists, armed robbers, and permanently ruined drug addicts should be executed, either because of their violence, or the high recidivism rates, or because the nature of their crimes makes them unemployable, rendering them a permanent burden on society. Prison is expensive, swift execution is cheap, and there is a world full of talent that wants to immigrate to the US to take their place. From a secular standpoint it makes sense to cull the herd of the violent, the drug-addled, and the depraved, save tons of money, and get better people to fill the hole left by their elimination.

From a secular standpoint it makes sense to fully harvest the organs of death row inmates, because there are many living people of working age who need transplants. Eliminating a criminal to save a highly-educated, high-earning, highly taxed individual makes great logical sense.

From a secular standpoint, the enslavement of non-violent criminals makes good economic sense.

Your view "from the secular standpoint" seems to match none of my secular views.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,057
5,307
✟326,913.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
If the acorn was fertilized and could germinate, yes.

Well then call the cops on me. Because by crushing that acord I violated the law, which states that I must seek council permission before removing any tree on my property.

"Excuse me, police? Yes, Kylie crushed an acorn and I demand that you arrest her!"

http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/live/trees/pruning-and-removing-trees

On the other hand, the Bible says that a person is not alive until they draw their first breath.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense. (SOURCE)

See also http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/3/19/1285933/-Bible-Life-Begins-at-Breath-Not-Conception
 
  • Like
Reactions: ecco
Upvote 0

Archivist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 5, 2004
17,332
6,439
Morgantown, West Virginia, USA
✟617,196.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
If you put in option 1A: "Only permitted when a panel of medical experts determines that it is necessary to save the life of the mother", that would be the answer I would pick, on a self-defense theory.
As I said before, there are limits as to the number of characters I can include in responses.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
For the record, since I have been challenged on bthis, how many of those who picked option 5 (unrestricted access to abortion) would be willing to comproimise with option 4, allowing abortions during the first trimester plus allowing abortions in cases of rape incest and life or health of the mother?
If you add health of the fetus, yes. That's all I ask. I'm not a fan of forcing parents to watch their terminal infant die a slow, painful death just to please other people. I would compare it to withdrawing life support. Possibly euthanasia.
To the extent they do not, then they are wrong and there can be no compromise.
You openly want a theocracy rather than the U.S. Constitution, then?
 
Upvote 0

Sammy-San

Newbie
May 23, 2013
9,020
848
✟112,089.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
You'd think, if that were so, 100% of the Democrats in Congress would not fight tooth and nail to prevent laws against partial birth abortion but against killing the child after he or she's been delivered as well. Wouldn't you?

Why was that even legal? That's insane even from a pro choice perspective.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.