Can we be sinlessly perfect?

[woobadooba]

I disagree because I was a Seventh Day Adventist before, you might not think it is by works but the system leads you to believe that salvation is by works.

This just isn't true at all. Maybe this was your experience, but there are people who have been SDAs all their life and they don't believe what you are saying here.

I rememeber "E.G.W" saying it herself that we need to do works to secure our Salvation in Patriarch's & Prophet's. I don't remember the page though, so, if the Adventist prophet said it herself that is what most Seventh Day Adventist believe except for a few that are battling against this teaching in this thread.

It's funny how you can remember the thought, as well as the book it is supposedly, but not the page reference.

If you are going to accuse someone of saying something at least show the decency to give a quote and page reference!

And by the way, I've read the book, and that thought is not in it.

It seems like the Adventist Church thinks that there the only ones saved because there views leads you to believe that salvation is only avalible to them.

It "seems" doesn't = that's the way it really is!

And no, we don't think this way.

Everyone else is lost although they have accepted Christ because they don't follow the Adventist doctorines and therefore not abiding in the truth.

Perhaps you should read Matt. 7:21

I believe God can enable us to overcome it through his Holy Spirit and perfect our character. Our nature to sin becomes dorment but we do not become sinless,

If one's character has been perfected in this way, how then could he not be sinless?

Does God hold you accountable for sins that you never committed?

all the scriptures you are seeing that you think support your view are in referance to the sinful nature that is why you have to go to the Greek language rather than clinging to a couple of scriptures and denying the others.

The proof is in the pudding. Now prove it.

And by the way, in case you missed it, I never said anyone could be saved by their works. You are reading something into my thoughts that I never said.

 

[minus208]

Patriarch's & Prophet's

Pg. 279

"So all who hope to be saved by merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in serving their salvation."

The above is all the prove you need....

 

[woobadooba]

Patriarch's & Prophet's

Pg. 279

"So all who hope to be saved by merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in serving their salvation."

The above is all the prove you need....

But what about the context! Don't you think that that is important too?

For the benefit of those following this thread, here is the whole page:

Page 279


"By obedience the people were to give evidence of their faith. So all who hope to be saved by the merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in securing their salvation. While it is Christ only that can redeem us from the penalty of transgression, we are to turn from sin to obedience. Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works. God has given His Son to die as a propitiation for sin, He has manifested the light of truth, the way of life, He has given facilities, ordinances, and privileges; and now man must co-operate with these saving agencies; he must appreciate and use the helps that God has provided--believe and obey all the divine requirements.

As Moses rehearsed to Israel the provisions of God for their deliverance, "the people bowed the head and worshiped." The glad hope of freedom, the awful knowledge of the impending judgment upon their oppressors, the cares and labors incident to their speedy departure--all were for the time swallowed up in gratitude to their gracious Deliverer. Many of the Egyptians had been led to acknowledge the God of the Hebrews as the only true God, and these now begged to be permitted to find shelter in the homes of Israel when the destroying angel should pass through the land. They were gladly welcomed, and they pledged themselves henceforth to serve the God of Jacob and to go forth from Egypt with His people.

The Israelites obeyed the directions that God had given. Swiftly and secretly they made their preparations for departure. Their families were gathered, the paschal lamb slain, the flesh roasted with fire, the unleavened bread and bitter herbs prepared. The father and priest of the household sprinkled the blood upon the doorpost, and joined his family within the dwelling. In haste and silence the paschal lamb was eaten. In awe the people prayed and watched, the heart of the eldest born, from the strong man down to the little child, throbbing with indefinable dread. Fathers and mothers clasped in their arms their loved first-born as they thought of the fearful stroke that was to fall that night. But no dwelling of Israel was visited by the death-dealing angel. The sign of blood--the sign of a Saviour's protection--was on their doors, and the destroyer entered not. At midnight "there was a great cry in Egypt: for there was"

The point is: Man can't save himself, but to disclose his salvation he must show himself as one who is willing to obey God! And this is in harmony with what the Bible teaches. See James 2:14-18

The person that just gave you a portion of this page is obviously being deceptive!

 

[minus208]

But what about the context! Don't you think that that is important too?

For the benefit of those following this thread, here is the whole page:

Page 279


"By obedience the people were to give evidence of their faith. So all who hope to be saved by the merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in securing their salvation. While it is Christ only that can redeem us from the penalty of transgression, we are to turn from sin to obedience. Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works. God has given His Son to die as a propitiation for sin, He has manifested the light of truth, the way of life, He has given facilities, ordinances, and privileges; and now man must co-operate with these saving agencies; he must appreciate and use the helps that God has provided--believe and obey all the divine requirements.

As Moses rehearsed to Israel the provisions of God for their deliverance, "the people bowed the head and worshiped." The glad hope of freedom, the awful knowledge of the impending judgment upon their oppressors, the cares and labors incident to their speedy departure--all were for the time swallowed up in gratitude to their gracious Deliverer. Many of the Egyptians had been led to acknowledge the God of the Hebrews as the only true God, and these now begged to be permitted to find shelter in the homes of Israel when the destroying angel should pass through the land. They were gladly welcomed, and they pledged themselves henceforth to serve the God of Jacob and to go forth from Egypt with His people.

The Israelites obeyed the directions that God had given. Swiftly and secretly they made their preparations for departure. Their families were gathered, the paschal lamb slain, the flesh roasted with fire, the unleavened bread and bitter herbs prepared. The father and priest of the household sprinkled the blood upon the doorpost, and joined his family within the dwelling. In haste and silence the paschal lamb was eaten. In awe the people prayed and watched, the heart of the eldest born, from the strong man down to the little child, throbbing with indefinable dread. Fathers and mothers clasped in their arms their loved first-born as they thought of the fearful stroke that was to fall that night. But no dwelling of Israel was visited by the death-dealing angel. The sign of blood--the sign of a Saviour's protection--was on their doors, and the destroyer entered not. At midnight "there was a great cry in Egypt: for there was"

The point is: Man can't save himself, but to disclose his salvation he must show himself as one who is willing to obey God! And this is in harmony with what the Bible teaches. See James 2:14-18

The person that just gave you a portion of this page is obviously being deceptive!

Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works.

She says is by faith but she adds to it by saying that your faith must be shown through works.

I rest my case....

 

[woobadooba]

Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works.

She says is by faith but she adds to it by saying that your faith must be shown through works.

I rest my case....

So then you also disagree with James 2:14-18

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

So then you also disagree with James 2:14-18

Does Paul see salvation differently then James?
the answer is no...... James 2:24 Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath reason to glory, but not before God.


I wouldn't even say that the salvation James is talking about is justification - gaining eternal life.

James made it pretty clear with the illustration he made that he was talking about a believer walking by and seeing another believer naked and destitute of daily food. If the first believer did not provide that, then the second believer would not be "saved". The faith involved was the faith of the person passing by, not the faith of the person being saved.... People usually ignor that, if the book of James is kept in it's context it does not support the view that your works can actually save you.

If a believers faith (to serve another believer - not pertaning to eternal life)
is of no avail useless, ineffective, if it is not accompanied by works."

Man is to be saved by faith, not by works

; yet his faith must be shown by his works.

She says is by faith but she adds to it by saying that your faith must be shown through works.

I rest my case.....

I do not agree with her statement in that page, but i really enjoy reading her works though.

woobadooba] You have no idea what you are talking about.

You have repeated this statement over and over again perhap's it is you who has no idea what you are talking about. Firstly this is a message board. We are Adventist Christians, and Adventist Messianics as myself studying the Bible together. If you have an actual disagreement with a statement someone made. Please address it without being rude, empty accusations as these will be ignored from now on, at least by me.

The Word Accuser in Greek.....

Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

accuser;
kategoreo, Greek 2723, Strong’s
kategoreo, kat-ay-gor-eh'-o; from Greek 2725 (kategoros); to be a plaintiff, i.e. to charge with some offence :- accuse, object.

bretheren;
adelphos, Greek 80, Strong’s
adelphos, ad-el-***'; from Greek 1 (a) (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literal or figurative) near or remote [much like Hebrew 1 ('ab)] :- brother.

Salvation is threefold. God saves us FIRST, from the guilt of sin. Then He saves us from the power of sin. And finally He saves us from the nature of sin, which is the sinful nature--death.

Strongs concordence; ( Salvation); 4982; Sozo; from a primary sos( contr. for obs. safe") to save , i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig):- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole..... 4991. soteria, so-tay-ree- ah; Fem. of a Der. Of 490
as (Prop. abstract.) noun; rescue or safety (phys. or mor.)- deliver, health, salvation, save, saving...

(Grace); Charizomai khar- id - zom- ahee; mid. Voice from 585; to grant as a favor, i.e. gratuitously, in kindness, pardon or rescue;- deliver, (frankly) forgive, (freely) give grant.

Salvation and God's grace are a complete act when God saves you by his grace he pardons you and rescues you gratuitously. It is free there is nothing you can do to merit his saving grace, no type of works will ever buy you your salvation it is freely given to you as a gift of his grace, being good and obeying is not enough. What you suggest is not biblical, it's legalistic whether you are a legalist or not that is not for me to judge, but what you have posted on this thread so far is.

le·gal·ism (l¶“g…-l¹z”…m) n. 1. Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality. 2. A legal word, expression, or rule. --le“gal·ist n. --le”gal·is“tic adj. --le”gal·is“ti·cal·ly adv.

lit·er·al (l¹t“…r-…l) adj. Abbr. lit. 1. Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words. 2. Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Now, back to the beaten path....

Yeshua my Salvation> Works do not in any way ensure, reinforce, or contribute to our salvation! Nor must a person have it set in his mind that he intends to do these things before he can become saved (like some would say). No one needs to first be "worthy" of being saved to be "saved"... (some Adventist do believe that in order to be a church member you most abide by the church rules and regulations or if not you will not be worthy of baptism). Yeshua accepts us as we are, at the moment we believe in him.

Yeshua my Salvation> However, if some do feel that a life of good works must be a result of there salvation, or must be a part of there salvation, or must be done in order to gain/obtain or keep/secure there salvation, then I will go ahead and take it upon myself to add to some of Yeshua's words.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him with a true faith that will produce a lifetime of great works, shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, decides that he wants to perfectly obey me, and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, unless he doesnt produce enough good fruits or loses his salvation along the way; he has crossed over from death to life (Just for now we are not to sure what awaites him after the second advent.)

John 6
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent (Plus all the other works you must do to be worthy.)

Yeshua my Salvation> Yeah, good thing it was me filling in for Yeshua the parts that He forgot to mention. You can give me a hand now, and a round of aplause in the comming heavenly kingdom (the New Jerusalem) - that is, if you do enough good works, (you know the kind that can secure your salvation)- to get there.

 

[ThreeAM]

I disagree because I was a Seventh Day Adventist before, you might not think it is by works but the system leads you to believe that salvation is by works. I rememeber "E.G.W" saying it herself that we need to do works to secure our Salvation in Patriarch's & Prophet's. I don't remember the page though, so, if the Adventist prophet said it herself that is what most Seventh Day Adventist believe except for a few that are battling against this teaching in this thread......

I Cr 9:25-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Rev. 14:12Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Will we be saved by keeping the commandments? No!, Salvation only comes as a free gift of grace from God. Will those who are saved be obedient and follow the commandments? Yes obedience is part of sanctification. Sabbath observance is a sign of the process of sanctification.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

I Cr 9:25-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Rev. 14:12Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Will we be saved by keeping the commandments? No Salvation only comes as a free gift of grace from God. Will those who are saved be obedient and follow the commandments? Yes obedience is part of sanctification. Sabbath observance is a sign of the process of sanctification.

Good point you make it is extremely important to be obidient we should Pay our tithes and obey the law by all means, and as you mentioned the Sabbath is a sign of the process of sanctification, but it should be done from the heart in love, not by the letter of the law, by that i mean in a legalistic way.

 

[ThreeAM]

Good point you make it is extremely important to be obidient we should Pay our tithes and obey the law by all means, and as you mentioned the Sabbath is a sign of the process of sanctification, but it should be done from the heart in love, not by the letter of the law, by that i mean in a legalistic way.

Most of the Adventist I Know veiw the Sabbath the way I explained. We should not lie, steal, murder, break the Sabbath etc. etc. We should be obedient because we ARE saved NOT TO BE saved. Our obedience is an expression of our love for our Savior.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Most of the Adventist I Know veiw the Sabbath the way I explained. We should not lie, steal, murder, break the Sabbath etc. etc. We should be obedient because we ARE saved NOT TO BE saved. Our obedience is an expression of our love for our Savior.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Right, but i still feel that deep down inside alot of us as Seventh Day Adventist do believe that we are being saved by these works, and there is only one work that can Save us, that is the works of Yeshua.....

John 6: 28-29 Then said they unto Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent."


John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

 

[ThreeAM]

Right, but i still feel that deep down inside alot of us as Seventh Day Adventist do believe that we are being saved by these works, and there is only one work that can Save us, that is the works of Yeshua.....

John 6: 28-29 Then said they unto Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent."


John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

No I would have to disagree..most of the Adventist I know believe firmly in salvation by grace. Maybe some that are poor Christians overall might be misguided but those who are strong Christians without doubt understand rightousness by faith. Every Church has its lukewarm members though. And thanks for your kind gift.

 

[Haggai]

Salvation by grace or salvation by faith? or works? I think you are saved by your faith in Jesus Christ, the grace God gives us to get that far, and by our obedience to God (in works). If God commands us to have faith in Him (which He does), should we not do so because this is salvation by commandments (works/obedience) ?

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Salvation by grace or salvation by faith? or works? I think you are saved by your faith in Jesus Christ, the grace God gives us to get that far, and by our obedience to God (in works).

Well Haggai... that is a bit problematic since we know for sure that the bible teaches Yeshua alone saves. You are including other things into our Salvation like obidience and works to merit it.. And before you use the book of James as proof text that Salvation can be merited by a combination of faith and works please address my post number #6 on James chapter 2 .......
thread....http://www.christianforums.com/t2411830-sabbatarian-please-stand-up.html

God bless you Haggai....

 

[winslow]

.

 

[Haggai]

So you all think that God permits sin on this Earth because Jesus died for our sins? And thus we are perfectly in the right to sin without thinking twice because all we have to do is have faith in Jesus and accept God's gift?

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

So you all think that God permits sin on this Earth because Jesus died for our sins? And thus we are perfectly in the right to sin without thinking twice because all we have to do is have faith in Jesus and accept God's gift?

Yeshua my Salvation> your supposition does not seem reasonable at all... But You got it we can trust in Yeshua alone to Secure our Salvation....

John 8:51 - I assure you: If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death -- ever!"

Please compare that with (John 6:29 -) Jesus replied, "This is the work of God: that you believe in the One He has sent."

The "work" that is needed to gain eternal life is believing in Yeshua. If you read John's gospel it is full of texts saying that eternal life is a gift not something we merit by being good... John 8: 51... 45, 46

8:45, 46 - Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Who among you can convict Me of sin? If I tell the truth, why don't you believe Me?

Clearly what Yeshua was demanding was that they believe Him.

John 5:24 - "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed ( - "crossed over"-) from death to life.


Here is an earlier post of mine which you seemed to have overlooked...

Yeshua my Salvation>

Works do not in any way ensure, reinforce, or contribute to our salvation! Nor must a person have it set in his mind that he intends to do these things before he can become saved (like some would say). No one needs to first be "worthy" of being saved to be "saved"... (some Adventist do believe that in order to be a church member you most abide by the church rules and regulations or if not you will not be worthy of baptism). Yeshua accepts us as we are, at the moment we believe in him.

Yeshua my Salvation> However, if some do feel that a life of good works must be a result of there salvation, or must be a part of there salvation, or must be done in order to gain/obtain or keep/secure there salvation, then I will go ahead and take it upon myself to add to some of Yeshua's words.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him with a true faith that will produce a lifetime of great works, shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, decides that he wants to perfectly obey me, and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, unless he doesnt produce enough good fruits or loses his salvation along the way; he has crossed over from death to life (Just for now we are not to sure what awaites him after the second advent.)

John 6
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent (Plus all the other works you must do to be worthy.)

Yeshua my Salvation> Yeah, good thing it was me filling in for Yeshua the parts that He forgot to mention. You can give me a hand now, and a round of aplause in the comming heavenly kingdom (the New Jerusalem) - that is, if you do enough good works, (you know the kind that can secure your salvation)- to get there.

Now i will ask how good do you think you need to be to merit eternal life?

 

[Haggai]

Yeshua my Salvation> your supposition does not seem reasonable at all... But You got it we can trust in Yeshua alone to Secure our Salvation....

John 8:51 - I assure you: If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death -- ever!"

Please compare that with (John 6:29 -) Jesus replied, "This is the work of God: that you believe in the One He has sent."

The "work" that is needed to gain eternal life is believing in Yeshua. If you read John's gospel it is full of texts saying that eternal life is a gift not something we merit by being good... John 8: 51... 45, 46

8:45, 46 - Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Who among you can convict Me of sin? If I tell the truth, why don't you believe Me?

Clearly what Yeshua was demanding was that they believe Him.

John 5:24 - "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed ( - "crossed over"-) from death to life.


Here is an earlier post of mine which you seemed to have overlooked...

Now i will ask how good do you think you need to be to merit eternal life?

I don't think you have to do anything. I think the only thing you need to do to have salvation is to beleive in Jesus Christ as our savior, and obey God's commands through the power of God. It is not humanly possible to by yourself, alone, keep the commandments of God, but through Jesus Christ, all things are possible.
John 8:51 - I assure you: If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death -- ever!"Whoever keeps His word. What is contained in His words? His commandments.