Can we be sinlessly perfect?

[YeshuamySalvation]

The Bible certainly does tell us to resist temptation, it tells us to overcome, and to keep the commandments of God. You should know what you're talking about before you make fictional assumptions.

A statement that something is being taken out of context or accusals that some are making fictional assumptions, could possibly be much more convincing with an actual explanation, than by begging the question and repetitive disagreements toward any opposing view without addressing it wouldn't you think.

 

[woobadooba]

it's erronous to believe that Christ alone secures our Salvation, so if you base your salvation on how well you preform then you will honestly admite that it is by works right, plus you will never ever no if you have it since you have to preform to earn it you'll never know for sure if your pleasing God enough.

And you have the audacity to accuse me of rendering non sequiturs! Here you say it is erroneous to believe that Christ alone secures our salvation, and then you condemn salvation by works.

Which is it then, Christ, or our works that saves us?

And if it isn't Christ alone who saves us, do you mean to tell me that you have to some how help God out, as if He isn't capable of totally saving you on His own?

If we are sons of God then you should also accept that as sons and daughters we do make mistakes and if at one point we are born into his family we cannot be unborn out if his family, just as a sheep does not turn into a goat, neither does a son of God almighty cease to be his son because he is not perfect.

Follow this argument carefully...

What is a disciple but a son or daughter of God? Jesus said, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another." Jn. 13:34-35

Now then, is it possible for someone, to give his life to Christ, and thus become a disciple, and then at some point in his walk with God turn against God's people, and thus manifest hatred for them? According to Heb. 6:4-6, this is possible.

In fact, according to the Bible, "the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." Rom. 8:16

So how then could one who was once filled with the Spirit turn his back on God and still bear the testimony of the Spirit that he is a son of God when his spirit opposes everything that God stands for?

In fact, didn't Lucifer turn his back on God?

Interestingly, the book of Job informs us that "there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." Job 1:6

"Sons", in this context, is referring to the holy angels of God. And according to the Bible, Satan too, was once one of those holy angels until he rebelled against God, Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:14-17; yet, here he is not identified as a son of God anymore, like they are.

Instead, he is called the father of lies! Jn. 8:44

And notice also how in verse 44 that Jesus tells these hypocritical pharisees that their father is the devil! How then could he be a son of God when Jesus is referring to them as being sons of the devil--one who opposes God?

Can one who opposes God be God's son? See 1Jn. 3:10

And you will have to show me were are you seeing this, Paul does not abolish any Law he upholds them all. Please read my posts 1, 2, 3 and 7 heres the link. http://www.christianforums.com/t2370192-does-gods-grace-cancel-his-laws.html

Any law? Paul didn't abolish the law. God did! Do you honestly believe that Paul still made animal sacrifices to merit God's forgiveness for his sins?

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

This does not answer the previous questions.

It did. You just didn't like the answer.

We don't repent to gain eternal life or to hang onto it. Biblical repentance means to "change your mind," typically about sin. Whether or not you follow through is not the issue. It's all about what's going on in your mind.

So you don't believe that you have to change your mind about God to receive Jesus Christ into your heart, and thus obtain salvation?

And I suppose you also disagree with Peter then, who when asked by those men who heard his sermon what they must do to receive eternal life, the first word out of his mouth was "Repent"! Acts 2:37-38

This passage has nothing to say on sinlessnes rather that God will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which you are able to bear, but with the temptation he will also make a way to escape it, that you may be able to bear it.

What do you think the word "escape" means then, but to give us the strength to avoid succumbing to sin? The context suggests that it is possible to escape temptation.

Do you consider yourself to be guilty of the sin that you are being tempted to yield to, even before you submit to it?

Again you continue to assume that what i'm trying to say is that we cannot have victory over temptation and sin, that is far from what i'm saying, Christ gives us the victory over sin in that we are no longer inslaven to it, he frees us from it's dominion but we remain sinners because we have a sinful nature and we sin ignorantly at times... Now many take 1 John 3:6-9 to say that a child of God cannot commit an act of sin, without even considering the conclusions they must reach...

Just because a person has a sinful nature that doesn't mean he can't help but to sin. The sinful nature has more to do with a state of being, than it has to do with a record of sin.

Does the word death ring a bell here? Death is also a part of the sinful nature.

And as long as we live in a dying world we will suffer the impact of the sinful nature because we too are dying with it. But that doesn't mean we can't ever stop sinning!

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

And you have the audacity to accuse me of rendering non sequiturs! Here you say it is erroneous to believe that Christ alone secures our salvation, and then you condemn salvation by works.

Which is it then, Christ, or our works that saves us?

it's erronous to believe that Christ alone secures our Salvation? So if you base your salvation on how well you preform then you will honestly admite that it is by works right, plus you will never ever no if you have it since you have to preform to earn it you'll never know for sure if your pleasing God enough.

It was a grammatical error that i made, i put a comma mistakenly insead of a question mark after i said secures our salvation, sorry i'm not sinlessly perfect LOL.

Any law? Paul didn't abolish the law. God did! Do you honestly believe that Paul still made animal sacrifices to merit God's forgiveness for his sins?

What i mean by saying Paul abolished the Law is in regards to how some people misunderstand his writings not that he abolished any law, the law is God's word, and God does not destroy his own word.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

Can you prove that i don't know what i'm talking about without even reading nor addressing what i posted on that thread, or is it just an empty accuusation? http://www.christianforums.com/t2370192-does-gods-grace-cancel-his-laws.html

So you don't believe that you have to change your mind about God to receive Jesus Christ into your heart, and thus obtain salvation? And I suppose you also disagree with Peter then, who when asked by those men who heard his sermon what they must do to receive eternal life, the first word out of his mouth was "Repent"! Acts 2:37-38

Actually it's you who has made the mistake by trying unsucessfully to put words into my mouth. I would never even imply something as foolish as what you are trying unsucessfully to attribute to me. If you have an actual argument, I will be happy to argue the point, but if you are just going to contuinue to avoid my points. I'm going to get really bored and fall asleep on you.

 

[woobadooba]

And the sacrificial law is still in place, its been "reformed" (Heb 9:10). The sacrifices are still the same it's just now in stead of bulls and goats and lambs its Yeshua who is our sacrificial offering in the Temple in Heaven.

This is heresy! Jesus died once and for all. Read it! Rom. 6:10

He is no longer a sacrificial offering. He is Lord of all!

Did you forget that He said "It is finished" right before He died on the cross?

Can you prove that i don't know what i'm talking about without even reading nor addressing what i posted on that thread, or is it just an empty accuusation?

To you? No. You aren't willing to hear the truth. To others reading this thread who foster a teachable spirit, for sure I have!

Actually it's you who has made the mistake by trying unsucessfully to put words into my mouth. I would never even imply something as foolish as what you are trying unsucessfully to attribute to me. If you have an actual argument, I will be happy to argue the point, but if you are just going to contuinue to avoid my points. I'm going to get really bored and fall asleep on you.

I'm not putting words into your mouth. I am taking your arguments to their final conclusion and disclosing how absurd they are.

 

[Jude124]

What good does it do someone to not believe God at His word when He tells us that if we will only submit to Him in everything, He will keep us from sinning? Why are we allowing satan to speak through us and twist or SDA message into saying victory over sin is false? Stand up for the truth, not matter what some preacher tells you, if it goes against the word of God there is no light in them. God has told us through the bible and ellen white that Gods people are free from sin, if we choose to reject what He has told us we reject Him, and He will reject us in turn. His intercession for us in the Most Holy place is about to come to a close and right now while there is still time He is trying to get a people in place who will be able to stand FAULTLESS before God without an intercessor. Either accept the truth and live and walk in it or you will be cut off from Gods remnant people, and the majority of proclaimed SDA's will not make that decision to stand sadly enough, I mean with all the truth we have, how can we still choose to reject Gods words?

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Now how can you read those texts from the bible and still believe a lie? I truly pray the holy spirit will be poured out and open the eyes of everyone who is being decieved in the church. Seriously.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

This is heresy! Jesus died once and for all. Read it! Rom. 6:10

He is no longer a sacrificial offering. He is Lord of all!

Did you forget that He said "It is finished" right before He died on the cross?

I know that, the whole illistration i made was symbolical i did not mean in the least bit to say that Yeshua is being offered and slain as an offering as you unsucessfully try to attribute to me, you could have told me it's one horrible illistration rather then falsly accusing me of being a heretic.

I'm not putting words into your mouth. I am taking your arguments to their final conclusion and disclosing how absurd they are.

You have continued to make one non sequitur after another concerning my posts. Perhaps that is why you mistakenly see them as absurd . Maybe if you actually read them as they are, rather than reading into them, you could then come up with an actual argument to show why you think they are absurd.

 

[woobadooba]

You have continued to make one non sequitur after another concerning my posts.

No, I just simply refuted the non sequiturs of your posts!

Perhaps that is why you mistakenly see them as absurd . Maybe if you actually read them as they are, rather than reading into them, you could then come up with an actual argument to show why you think they are absurd.

Hey, it's not my fault that you have a poor way of communicating your ideas. I go by what I see, and what I see is that you don't know what you are talking about.

I think we're done here.

P.S. If it was an illustration then you should have said so. But you disclosed the idea as though it were a statement of fact! By the way, even if you meant it to be an illustration the idea still isn't Biblical.

And no, I don't think you are a heretic. Nevertheless, I do think you are confused about these matters.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

No, I just simply refuted the non sequiturs of your posts!

P.S. You know you didn't intend for that to be an illustration, but a statement of fact!

Lol. You haven't refuted anything, because you can't follow a logical progression. I can't argue with your opinion. I agree that it is your opinion that I said those things that you unsucessfully atribute to me. Your lack of argument has gone beyond my ability to follow.

 

[woobadooba]

Lol. You haven't refuted anything, because you can't follow a logical progression. I can't argue with your opinion. I agree that it is your opinion that I said those things that you unsucessfully atribute to me. Your lack of argument has gone beyond my ability to follow.

This thread has been viewed over 400 times. We'll let the readers be the judge of this!

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

This thread has been viewed over 400 times. We'll let the readers be the judge of this!

Sorry that we had to get into this war i don't even feel right about it believe me, i want to ask you to forgive me if i offended you in anyway, i know i got a little out of hand. I'm not going to be posting for a while since i'm not going to have access to the internet.

I want you to know that despite are difference of opinions i love you with brotherly love my brother and i'll be praying alot for both of us and the rest of the people that post in this message board.


May the Lord bless you and shine his countenance upon you and grant you his peace.

 

[woobadooba]

Sorry that we had to get into this war i don't even feel right about it believe me, i want to ask you to forgive me if i offended you in anyway, i know i got a little out of hand. I'm not going to be posting for a while since i'm not going to have access to the internet.

I want you to know that despite are difference of opinions i love you with brotherly love my brother and i'll be praying alot for both of us and the rest of the people that post in this message board.


May the Lord bless you and shine his countenance upon you and grant you his peace.

It's ok to disagree with each other. But what we have to be careful with is that we not disagree with God. The scriptures are to be our guide. Thus every thought must be brought into conformity to them.

God bless you too!

 

[MiamiHeat]

I want to address Col 2:14-18, 21-22

The GREEK WORDS "Cheirographon Tois Dogmasin" in verse 14 of Col 2 in Apocaliptic literature indicates the written record of our sins, not any LAW codes, the GREEK word "

Cheirographon" occures only ones in scripture in Col.2:14, in the context of Col.2:14 the word law “ nómos. . is not even mentioned, the accusing witness in verse 14 is the record of our sins, which Christ has taken out of the way and nailed to his cross.

Paul affirms how complete God's forgiveness is towards us that God through his son Jesus has cancelled the "written record of our sins" which because of it's regulations "prescribed the death penalty for the transgressor", was against us, what Christ obrogated on the cross was not the LAW but the "written record of our sins".

By destroying the written record of our sins, CHRIST JESUS has disarmed "principalities and powers" Verse 15.

16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

First things first, Paul is not the one passing judgment in this passage, but certain false teachers were passing judgment on how the believers observe
these days, so it should be noted that Paul is not warning the Colossians against the "observance of these practices" as such but rather against those that were passing judgment on how to eat, drink, and to observe Holy Days, New Moons, and the "Seventh Day Sabbath".

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

In verse 17.. Paul is not reffering to the five mentioned practices in the previous verse but to the "regulations regarding these practices that were promoted by the false brethern.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

The context is a whole theological discussion when Paul attempts to help the Colossians that were being mislead by these false brethern. These false brethern taught them that they had to call for help from "principalities and powers of angels". Paul is saying in effect why are you trying to seek Salvation (OUTSIDE OF JESUS) by submitting to these "nonsensical rules and regulations" don't you realize that Christ has forgiven you "all of your trespasses" and yes he has even done more than that, he has made null, and void, nailed to his cross the written record of your sins, so keep your eyes on what Christ did for you and don't put your faith in men that will try to beguile you of your reward by intraducing the false worship of angels.

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

God's laws are not Commandments and doctrines of men, they are Commandments and Doctrines of God almighty. Neither does God remove guilt by " Cancelling LAWS", so what Paul is condeming is not the principle of "Sabbath keeping" but the perversion.

I agree with this post 100% this also agree with what Adventist theologien Samuel Bacchiocch said in his book Sabbath in the New Testament.



sabbaton, sab'-bat-on; Col. 2:16 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (sabbaton)

sabbaton, Greek 4521, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.
sabbaton, sab'-bat-on; sabbaton, Greek 4521, Strong’s
sabbaton, sab'-bat-on; of Hebrew origin [Hebrew 7676 (shabbath)]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications :- sabbath (day), week.



Does this refer to the weekly sabbath, I would think so. It is referring to three things. The holydays are the yearly Sabbaths which means the festivals, actually that Greek word is translated as feast or festival in every other verse where it is used. Most translations actually translate it as festival in that verse:


Then we have the new moon, this is a different time than the festivals or the weekly Sabbaths. This is pertaining to months.

Then we have the third item the Sabbath. This is the weekly Sabbath. When we see this Greek word being used in other verses it refers to the weekly Sabbath.


Anyone can at the bottom of each of the above two sources click on the different books and see how the TWO DIFFERENT words are used. One refers to the feast days the other refers to the weekly Sabbath. So I think it is quite clear that Paul was with the third word referring to the weekly Sabbath.

searchgodsword.org

So you are absolutly right YeshuamySalavtion.

 

[OntheDL]

I want to address Col 2:14-18, 21-22

The GREEK WORDS "Cheirographon Tois Dogmasin" in verse 14 of Col 2 in Apocaliptic literature indicates the written record of our sins, not any LAW codes, the GREEK word "</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>Cheirographon" occures only ones in scripture in Col.2:14, in the context of Col.2:14 the word law “ nómos. . is not even mentioned, the accusing witness in verse 14 is the record of our sins, which Christ has taken out of the way and nailed to his cross.

Paul affirms how complete God's forgiveness is towards us that God through his son Jesus has cancelled the "written record of our sins" which because of it's regulations "prescribed the death penalty for the transgressor", was against us, what Christ obrogated on the cross was not the LAW but the "written record of our sins".

By destroying the written record of our sins, CHRIST JESUS has disarmed "principalities and powers" Verse 15.

Shalom to our messianic friends,

SDA's doctrine and the bible teach that when we repent, our sins are forgiven, but not forgotten. It's recorded for the final judgement. It begins within His house (pre-advent judgement in this case). After the person is found righteous, his sins are then forgotten, record destroyed, thrown to the bottom of the sea. In fact the scripture tells us if he's found quilty, he previously forgiven sins would return to his account and his righteousness shall not be mentioned.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So no 'once saved, always saved'.

The study of the sanctuary also reveals this, during the daily sacrifices, the blood (that carried the sins) was sprinkled onto the veils of the holy place (and outside in the court). Our sins are recorded by the angels. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the sanctuary is cleansed. After the judgement day, records of sin are removed.

What was abolished, nailed to the cross by Jesus's death? Col 2:17 stated clearly.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Neither the sabbath nor the records of sins are shadows. But the sacrifices and ceremonies that pointed to Christ were done away.

Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

That which was written by Moses to be against us in the book of law of Moses was nailed to the cross.

This is also supported by the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15 and Paul's letters in Galations 2,3&4.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Shalom to our messianic friends,

SDA's doctrine and the bible teach that when we repent, our sins are forgiven, but not forgotten. It's recorded for the final judgement. It begins within His house (pre-advent judgement in this case). After the person is found righteous, his sins are then forgotten, record destroyed, thrown to the bottom of the sea. In fact the scripture tells us if he's found quilty, he previously forgiven sins would return to his account and his righteousness shall not be mentioned.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So no 'once saved, always saved'.

The study of the sanctuary also reveals this, during the daily sacrifices, the blood (that carried the sins) was sprinkled onto the veils of the holy place (and outside in the court). Our sins are recorded by the angels. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the sanctuary is cleansed. After the judgement day, records of sin are removed.

What was abolished, nailed to the cross by Jesus's death? Col 2:17 stated clearly.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Neither the sabbath nor the records of sins are shadows. But the sacrifices and ceremonies that pointed to Christ were done away.

Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

That which was written by Moses to be against us in the book of law of Moses was nailed to the cross.

This is also supported by the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts 15 and Paul's letters in Galations 2,3&4.

I do believe Miami Heat pegged this thread very very accurately, he cut the tree from it's roots, while i was just chopping branches, i guess his strategy works a lot better just take it to the orginal language and thats it, James Strong, is a respected scholar on the orginal languages he gives his reaserched definition in the concordence which is widely accepted.

I won't be posting much sense i don't have access to my computer.

Thank you Miami Heat.

 

[MiamiHeat]

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So no 'once saved, always saved'.

though you did not mention it Heb 6 is one of the most misunderstood passages in scripture and this is my understanding of Heb 6... Verse 2. is referring to genuine Jewish believers who were considering returning to their OT sacrificial practices due to the tremendous persecution they were facing. The warning does not refer to possibly losing their salvation, but to the steps that God would take if they persisted in the direction they were going. These were immature believers, it should be noted.

3. To " restore them unto repentance" is not referring to re-gaining eternal life. Unbelievers often need to repent as part of the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives convincing them of their need to deal with sin in their lives. But they are not saved by repenting, but by trusting in Christ alone for eternal life. Believers also sometimes need to deal with sin.

4. The "impossibility" to restore them to repentance refers to a hardening of the heart. If we are not careful we can find ourselves in such a state - as believers. Unbelievers are already in that state.

5. To say that someone who fit the description of these Christians, whose hearts were so hardened, were impossible to renew to repentance is not to say that it is very hard to do this. It is utterly impossible for men to do so. And God would need to take them through some severe discipline before they might perhaps be ready to respond to the Lord. That fits in with verse 3 very nicely... And this we will do (proceeding unto maturity) if
God permits.


6. Only God is possibily able to bring the hardened believer back into a vibrant walk with God... other Christians can only pray, for their hardened heart has made them "impossible to restore them to repentance. Other believers will not be able to exhort them such that they return to discipleship. Some of these Jewish believers were at a point that the writer of Hebrews (very debated we are not to sure though) could do nothing to draw them on to maturity... unless God were to change their heart. Some of these believers were at a point where the Hebrew writer knew that he could do nothing - God would have to do it. And the process of God doing just that is then described. It's not very pretty.

7. God may take home (physical death) if they do not resond to the work of the Spirit in their life.

8. In 6:8 it says that they are unfruitful (yielding thorns, etc.), and close to being cursed (notice - "close" - but they are not cursed and can never be cursed since Christ was cursed in their behalf).

9. In 6:8 still, it also says that their end is to be "burned." Now, this illustration is not referring to the lake- of fire- as some assume incorrectly though, never says nor does it imply that. But think about it, what happens when you burn a field (representing the believer)? The crops/thorns on it are destroyed, and the soil is purged. It is then able to be used for useful crops again. In fact, in those days, that was what was done to purify the topsoil. This represents harsh treatment, it caused the believer to become useful soil again. The thorns/and crops are destroyed... not the soil. That was what was intended in the illustration not the loss of ones salvation.

10. heres one more to make it 10 on Heb 6... Think about it: if "impossible to restore them to repentance" refers to losing your salvation, then we must take this precisely as it states it... "impossible to restore to repentance" would mean that if they lost their salvation, due to continued sin, they would be unable to ever gain it back again... even if they sought it later with tears... Now, does that sound like how God works?

Ezke 18:21-24

21 ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

11. Ok one more: These were Jewish Christians, and the writer of Hebrews was trying to remind them of the attitude of those Jews in the wilderness who refused to trust God in Kadesh-barnea and were told they would wander around for 40 years until that generation all died. These were saved individuals, yet because of their lack of trusting God they missed out on the opportunity to inherit the promises... to enter into the promised land. Now such entrance represents rewards for faithfulness - being joint-heirs of Christ. Now eternal life is a gift of God, but there are additional rewards to be given at the Bema seat of Christ. (Romans 14:10-12 & 2 Corin. 5:10)
Well, as I mentioned earlier, the burning of a field that yields thorns and thistles does not destroy the field. The purpose is to hopefully prepare it to yield a useful crop in the future. The parallels with 1 Corin. 3:10-15 are so close as to be undeniable and 1 Corin. 3 clearly refers to lost rewards and a painful experience...

1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Burning is often used in scripture to refer to God's discipline and purging rather then the loss of ones salvation.

1 Peter 1:6, 7 - In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
(Compare with James 1 below: )

James 1:2-4 - Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

1 Corinthians 3:13 - each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

Revelation 3:18 - I advise you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire so that you may be rich, and white clothes so that you may be dressed and your shameful nakedness not be exposed, and ointment to spread on your eyes so that you may see.

What was abolished, nailed to the cross by Jesus's death? Col 2:17 stated clearly.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Neither the sabbath nor the records of sins are shadows. But the sacrifices and ceremonies that pointed to Christ were done away.

I agree that the sacrifices are no longer in effect sense Christ is our final sacrifice there is no need for further sacrifices, Shadow of things to come are not the five mentioned practices in verse 16 as Yeshua my salvation rightly points out..

In verse 17.. Paul is not reffering to the five mentioned practices in the previous verse but to the "regulations regarding these practices that were promoted by the false brethern. [QUOTE/]

OntheDL] Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The book of the LAW is the Torah and it's not abolished, if there is a distinction of laws mentioned in the scriptures then why would God put two copies in the book of the law, it does not make sense.

No such distinction exists between God's law and Moses law, the Law of God and the law of Moses is the samething, God gave the law of Moses.... (Ezra 7: 6 Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the law of God... (Neh 10:29; 2 Chro. 34:14).

Plus the Two Commandment that were mentioned by Jesus (Matthew 22:36-40) are not part of the Ten Commandment Law, they are contained in the book of the law. Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5.

That which was written by Moses to be against us in the book of law of Moses was nailed to the cross.

The GREEK WORDS "Cheirographon Tois Dogmasin" in verse 14 of Col 2 in Apocaliptic literature indicates the written record of our sins, not any LAW codes, the GREEK word "Cheirographon" occures only ones in scripture in Col.2:14, in the context of Col.2:14 the word law “ nómos. . is not even mentioned, the accusing witness in verse 14 is the record of our sins, which Christ has taken out of the way and nailed to his cross.

Paul affirms how complete God's forgiveness is towards us that God through his son Jesus has cancelled the "written record of our sins" which because of it's regulations "prescribed the death penalty for the transgressor", was against us, what Christ obrogated on the cross was not the LAW but the "written record of our sins".

By destroying the written record of our sins, CHRIST JESUS has disarmed "principalities and powers" Verse 15.

16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

First things first, Paul is not the one passing judgment in this passage, but certain false teachers were passing judgment on how the believers observe
these days, so it should be noted that Paul is not warning the Colossians against the "observance of these practices" as such but rather against those that were passing judgment on how to eat, drink, and to observe Holy Days, New Moons, and the "Seventh Day Sabbath".

Read Samuel Samuel Bacchiocchi's book from "Sabbath to Sunday and Sabbath in the new Testament" you will find it extremly interesting believe me.

Shabbat Shalom OntheDL...

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Strong’s

le·gal·ism (l¶“g…-l¹z”…m) n. 1. Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality. 2. A legal word, expression, or rule. --le“gal·ist n. --le”gal·is“tic adj. --le”gal·is“ti·cal·ly adv.

lit·er·al (l¹t“…r-…l) adj. Abbr. lit. 1. Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words. 2. Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.

spir·it (sp¹r“¹t) n. 1.a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness. 3. Spirit. The Holy Spirit. 4. Spirit. Christian Science. God. 5. A supernatural being, as: a. An angel or a demon. b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon. c. A fairy or sprite.

6.a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group. 7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit. 8.a.An inclination or a tendency of a specified kind: Her actions show a generous spirit. b. A causative, activating, or essential principle: The couple's engagement was announced in a joyous spirit. 9. spirits. A mood or an emotional state: The guests were in high spirits. His sour spirits put a damper on the gathering. 10. A particular mood or an emotional state characterized by vigor and animation: sang with spirit.

11. Strong loyalty or dedication: team spirit. 12. The predominant mood of an occasion or a period: “The spirit of 1776 is not dead” (Thomas Jefferson). 13. The actual though unstated sense or significance of something: the spirit of the law. 14. Often spirits. (used with a sing. verb). An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance. 15. spirits. An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor. --spir·it tr.v. spir·it·ed, spir·it·ing, spir·its.

1. To carry off mysteriously or secretly: The documents had been spirited away. 2. To impart courage, animation, or determination to; inspirit. [Middle English, from Old French espirit, from Latin spºritus, breath, from spºr³re, to breathe.]


Yeshua my salvation> Notice the words that are bolded in red above. "The spirit" is actual though unstated since or sinificance of something. It is of vital importants and it is real. The spirit is not the exact or primary meaning of the word as the literal is, most Seventh Day Adventist believe that the letter of the Law is going to save them though they won't say this at first but that is exactly what they believe, they believe that they have to be good to pay there entrance to heaven.

This does not exclude me as an Seventh Day Adventist i never had any asurance of my Salvation, i just did not know how much i had to preform to please God and if i was doing enough to deserve my salvation. I could not see any of this legalism taught in scripture though, the bible teaches that Christ alone secures our Salvation.

Most Adventist believe in Christ and something else to merit salvation, and that is exactly were they fall short of the truth as taught in scripture, one of my brothers in Christ left the church do to the immence amount of legalism in the church and the reason being was the samething, he never thought he was pleasing God enough he just never knew if he had the "right kind" of faith that is really producing enough good works or the right kind of good works, "or if he was bearing enough fruit", or bearing the right kind of fruit to be worthy of obtaining his salvation..

So most Adventist say they believe in Salvation by grace through faith, but the truth is that they don't, they believe they will only merit salvation by how well they preform, they believe God is just waiting for them to messup to snatch away there Salvation.

Now what ive noticed about people that think they can merit salvation by preformance and how good they think they are, is that the works they claim that are going to secure there salvation they are never able to do or fullfil, while on the other hand the people that don't believe this and believe that Christ alone secures our Salvation and not works do more works and you can actually see more fruits in there lives. Seems like they have a more proper understanding of how we gain eternal life through Christ alone, there is only one work that can save us.....John 6:28-29 28Then said they unto Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent."


Matt 7:21-24

21"Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.
22Many will say to Me in that Day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'


23And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'


24"Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock.

Please Notice the scriptures i posted above, that all of these people who are pleading with Yeshua do not lack works. They have many works, even in the name of Yeshua, and they eagerly remind Him of that. However, they are still not saved. Doing good works in Yeshua name seems to be an evidence of salvation. But why are these people not saved? Because there is only one "work" that saves period...... John 6: 29Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent."

They thought that there good works could save them the problem is that they did not trust in Yeshua alone as there only way to gain eternal life.


John 5

24"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.

1 John 5
12 He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life.

These scriptures give me and all the people that believe in Yeshua alone for eternal life the assurance that we do not need to work to Pay a ticket to go to heaven when the trumpets sounds and the dead in Christ rise.

Blessings..

 

[woobadooba]

Strong’s

le·gal·ism (l¶“g…-l¹z”…m) n. 1. Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality. 2. A legal word, expression, or rule. --le“gal·ist n. --le”gal·is“tic adj. --le”gal·is“ti·cal·ly adv.

lit·er·al (l¹t“…r-…l) adj. Abbr. lit. 1. Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words. 2. Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.

spir·it (sp¹r“¹t) n. 1.a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings. b. Incorporeal consciousness. 3. Spirit. The Holy Spirit. 4. Spirit. Christian Science. God. 5. A supernatural being, as: a. An angel or a demon. b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon. c. A fairy or sprite.

6.a. The part of a human being associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit. b. The essential nature of a person or group. 7. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit. 8.a.An inclination or a tendency of a specified kind: Her actions show a generous spirit. b. A causative, activating, or essential principle: The couple's engagement was announced in a joyous spirit. 9. spirits. A mood or an emotional state: The guests were in high spirits. His sour spirits put a damper on the gathering. 10. A particular mood or an emotional state characterized by vigor and animation: sang with spirit.

11. Strong loyalty or dedication: team spirit. 12. The predominant mood of an occasion or a period: “The spirit of 1776 is not dead” (Thomas Jefferson). 13. The actual though unstated sense or significance of something: the spirit of the law. 14. Often spirits. (used with a sing. verb). An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance. 15. spirits. An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor. --spir·it tr.v. spir·it·ed, spir·it·ing, spir·its.

1. To carry off mysteriously or secretly: The documents had been spirited away. 2. To impart courage, animation, or determination to; inspirit. [Middle English, from Old French espirit, from Latin spºritus, breath, from spºr³re, to breathe.]


Yeshua my salvation> Notice the words that are bolded in red above. "The spirit" is actual though unstated since or sinificance of something. It is of vital importants and it is real. The spirit is not the exact or primary meaning of the word as the literal is, most Seventh Day Adventist believe that the letter of the Law is going to save them though they won't say this at first but that is exactly what they believe, they believe that they have to be good to pay there entrance to heaven.

This does not exclude me as an Seventh Day Adventist i never had any asurance of my Salvation, i just did not know how much i had to preform to please God and if i was doing enough to deserve my salvation. I could not see any of this legalism taught in scripture though, the bible teaches that Christ alone secures our Salvation.

Most Adventist believe in Christ and something else to merit salvation, and that is exactly were they fall short of the truth as taught in scripture, one of my brothers in Christ left the church do to the immence amount of legalism in the church and the reason being was the samething, he never thought he was pleasing God enough he just never knew if he had the "right kind" of faith that is really producing enough good works or the right kind of good works, "or if he was bearing enough fruit", or bearing the right kind of fruit to be worthy of obtaining his salvation..

So most Adventist say they believe in Salvation by grace through faith, but the truth is that they don't, they believe they will only merit salvation by how well they preform, they believe God is just waiting for them to messup to snatch away there Salvation.

Now what ive noticed about people that think they can merit salvation by preformance and how good they think they are, is that the works they claim that are going to secure there salvation they are never able to do or fullfil, while on the other hand the people that don't believe this and believe that Christ alone secures our Salvation and not works do more works and you can actually see more fruits in there lives. Seems like they have a more proper understanding of how we gain eternal life through Christ alone, there is only one work that can save us.....John 6:28-29 28Then said they unto Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent."


Matt 7:21-24

21"Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.
22Many will say to Me in that Day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'


23And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'


24"Therefore, whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock.

Please Notice the scriptures i posted above, that all of these people who are pleading with Yeshua do not lack works. They have many works, even in the name of Yeshua, and they eagerly remind Him of that. However, they are still not saved. Doing good works in Yeshua name seems to be an evidence of salvation. But why are these people not saved? Because there is only one "work" that saves period...... John 6: 29Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent."

They thought that there good works could save them the problem is that they did not trust in Yeshua alone as there only way to gain eternal life.


John 5

24"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.

1 John 5
12 He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son hath not life.

These scriptures give me and all the people that believe in Yeshua alone for eternal life the assurance that we do not need to work to Pay a ticket to go to heaven when the trumpets sounds and the dead in Christ rise.

Blessings..

But who here ever said you have to merit God's favor with your works, to get into heaven?

The argument is, God can enable us to overcome sin, and thus perfect our character.

But you deny this.

 

[minus208]

But who here ever said you have to merit God's favor with your works, to get into heaven?

I disagree because I was a Seventh Day Adventist before, you might not think it is by works but the system leads you to believe that salvation is by works. I rememeber "E.G.W" saying it herself that we need to do works to secure our Salvation in Patriarch's & Prophet's. I don't remember the page though, so, if the Adventist prophet said it herself that is what most Seventh Day Adventist believe except for a few that are battling against this teaching in this thread.

It seems like the Adventist Church thinks that there the only ones saved because there views leads you to believe that salvation is only avalible to them. Everyone else is lost although they have accepted Christ because they don't follow the Adventist doctorines and therefore not abiding in the truth.

The argument is, God can enable us to overcome sin, and thus perfect our character.

I believe God can enable us to overcome it through his Holy Spirit and perfect our character. Our nature to sin becomes dorment but we do not become sinless, all the scriptures you are seeing that you think support your view are in referance to the sinful nature that is why you have to go to the Greek language rather than clinging to a couple of scriptures and denying the others.


Salvation is a Gift

God Bless

 

[Cliff2]

I disagree because I was a Seventh Day Adventist before, you might not think it is by works but the system leads you to believe that salvation is by works. I rememeber "E.G.W" saying it herself that we need to do works to secure our Salvation in Patriarch's & Prophet's. I don't remember the page though, so, if the Adventist prophet said it herself that is what most Seventh Day Adventist believe except for a few that are battling against this teaching in this thread.

It seems like the Adventist Church thinks that there the only ones saved because there views leads you to believe that salvation is only avalible to them. Everyone else is lost although they have accepted Christ because they don't follow the Adventist doctorines and therefore not abiding in the truth.





I believe God can enable us to overcome it through his Holy Spirit and perfect our character. Our nature to sin becomes dorment but we do not become sinless, all the scriptures you are seeing that you think support your view are in referance to the sinful nature that is why you have to go to the Greek language rather than clinging to a couple of scriptures and denying the others.


Salvation is a Gift

God Bless

I can assure you that whoever you are that the SDA Churc h does not believe you or anyone can be saved because of you so called good works.

Read Eph 2:8,9

"...not by works lest any man should boast"

That verse is right at the front of our SDA Church where I attend.

I have never read or heard that EGW says we must do more works to be saved.

I am sorry and apologise to you that someone has given you that perception of SDA's. Whoever did that was wrong and we do not believe it.

 

[woobadooba]

I disagree because I was a Seventh Day Adventist before, you might not think it is by works but the system leads you to believe that salvation is by works. I rememeber "E.G.W" saying it herself that we need to do works to secure our Salvation in Patriarch's & Prophet's. I don't remember the page though, so, if the Adventist prophet said it herself that is what most Seventh Day Adventist believe except for a few that are battling against this teaching in this thread.

It seems like the Adventist Church thinks that there the only ones saved because there views leads you to believe that salvation is only avalible to them. Everyone else is lost although they have accepted Christ because they don't follow the Adventist doctorines and therefore not abiding in the truth.





I believe God can enable us to overcome it through his Holy Spirit and perfect our character. Our nature to sin becomes dorment but we do not become sinless, all the scriptures you are seeing that you think support your view are in referance to the sinful nature that is why you have to go to the Greek language rather than clinging to a couple of scriptures and denying the others.


Salvation is a Gift

God Bless

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Salvation is threefold. God sves us FIRST, from the guilt of sin. Then He saves us from the power of sin. And finally He saves us from the nature of sin, which is the sinful nature--death.