Can we be sinlessly perfect?

[YeshuamySalvation]

According to Adventist theologyn Joe Crews we can be sinlessly perfect, "though not all Seventh Day Adventist accept this view," some actually do, i will quote some of Joe Crews arguments that seem to support his veiws and post "my understanding of scriptures".

Page 8 on the book is it possible to live with out sinning Mr.Crews said....But all the verses about failure, sin and defeat are in referance to the unregenerated experience of a person.

Not so though alot do refer to the unregenerated experience of a person, there are many that actually don't...

Psalms 19:12-13 12 Who can understand his errors? Cleanse Thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back Thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me. Then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent of the great transgression.


David was not an unregenerated sinner, he was a regenerated one and he asked God to cleanse him from secret faults, sins that he did not know he was commiting, so no matter how much some may try to argue there opinions, David was not sinlessly perfect, he reconized that he was a sinner and that there was no possible way he could be perfect in this life, he realized that he was concieved in sin. The believer trangresses God's Law a minimum of 1000 times per day, with all do respect to Mr.Crews his faliure to realize that God's Law is much more extensive then just the Ten Commandments leads him to believe that we can actually be sinless in this life time.


1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.


Here are a few scriptures that Mr.Crews uses to support his view....

1 John 3:6-9


6Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.


7Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.


8He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.


9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



To commite sin is to practice it those who are born of God do not willfully practice sin, they are born of God they are his sheep his children, they cannot feel comfortable practicing sin, or if not they wouldn't be his.


How can you rightly say your a sinner and then on the other hand say that you can live a sinlessly free life without trangressing, want to know the answer you can't whether you say it's through Christ or not you just can't because we are all sinners period, we strive for Christ likness but we will not be sinlessly perfect till the trumpet sound and the dead rise.

Believe me i would love to quote more comments that he made in his book "is it possible to live without sinning" but i would not be able to fit everything into this post nor will i ever finish.

God bless..

 

[Jude124]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We are naturally sinners, it is our natural inclination to sin. When we live in the flesh we are sinning, but when we abide in the spirit we cannot sin! When we abide in Christ we cant sin because christ does not sin. Commiting sin does not mean we just practice it, every time we trangress Gods word and go against it we sin, just because some dont do it all the time doesnt mean they do not commit sin. One sin will keep you from being saved from the second death. Now saying true christians dont sin is ALOT different than saying I am not a sinner. All human beings are sinners naturally, we were born into it, you are definatly a liar if you say you are not a sinner. You are definatly telling the truth though when you show by your lifestyle and with your words that truly walking with God is living a life of victory over sin, which is one of the pillars of the SDA faith. Jude 1:24, says he will keep us from falling. All over the bible you see victory over sin taught.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

How can we keep the commandments of God and break them at the same time? We cant! When we are covered by christs righteousness He gives us the victory so that we may be blameless in the final judgement, which is here for all proclaimed SDAs.

Finally there is a distinct difference shown in scripture between Gods people and commandment breakers. Ill give you one example.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The devil is only angry with those who keep the commandments of God, he doesnt have to worry about the ones who continue on sinning, he knows he already has them. Its the ones who are teaching AND practicing victory over sin that makes him wroth, because he knows he has no power over them!

2 corinthians 6:16-17 tells us we are to be seperate from the world, and to walk with God and He will dwell in us.
Enoch walked with God, he lived without sin, if he can do it, we can do it. Righteousness by faith is righteousness by obedience, and obedience does not mean breaking the law of God, it means obeying and being seperate from everyone else. On this earth we will always be sinners, but just because we were born into it gives us no excuse to keep on sinning!

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We are naturally sinners, it is our natural inclination to sin. When we live in the flesh we are sinning, but when we abide in the spirit we cannot sin! When we abide in Christ we cant sin because christ does not sin.

We know Christ does not sin, but we certainly do sin, the fact that some of us say we can't sin through Christ, means that we cannot sin and if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)

So, if we claim to be without sin that is, not sinning, or not sinful now, or to have never sinned previously or ever, then we are deceived and the truth is not in us, and we call God, who has pronounced all of us as sinners, that is that we are incapable of being sinnless, a liar.


(Psalm 19:12-13) Who can understand his errors? Cleanse Thou me from secret faults. Keep back Thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me. Then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent of the great transgression.(Psalm 19:12-13)

So as we can see that David contrast "presumptuous sins" with secret faults, these secret faults are so well hidden that we cannot even begin to discern those mistakes. These faults are certainly sins, they are sins we can't discern, or else David would not have asked God to cleanse him from those "Faults".

Commiting sin does not mean we just practice it, every time we trangress Gods word and go against it we sin, just because some dont do it all the time doesnt mean they do not commit sin.

If they do not practice sin can only mean that it is not part of there nature, meaning that they are children of God and they are redeemed by the blood of the lamb
it does not make them sinless robots though.

One sin will keep you from being saved from the second death.

No it doesn't, we don't obey the law to earn merit we keep them for santification.

Now saying true christians dont sin is ALOT different than saying I am not a sinner.

If a christian saids he does not sin then by defenition he is saying he is not a sinner.

All human beings are sinners naturally, we were born into it, you are definatly a liar if you say you are not a sinner. You are definatly telling the truth though when you show by your lifestyle and with your words that truly walking with God is living a life of victory over sin, which is one of the pillars of the SDA faith.

The bible teaches freedom from sins dominion, it does not teach sinless perfection, we will not reach sinless perfection till the trumpet sounds, and the dead in Christ rise, till then we are still sinners and fall very short from perfection...

Jude 1:24, says he will keep us from falling. All over the bible you see victory over sin taught.

This verse does not even imply that we can be sinless, rather that God can keep us from falling in presenting us faultless before the presence of His glory. We do make mistakes, but by making a mistake does not mean we completely fell-away.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

How can we keep the commandments of God and break them at the same time?

To God we are keeping them as long as we remain in Christ, his sheeps are his and they hear his voice, a sheep cannot turn into a goat though, nor can a child of God be born again and later on born.

We cant! When we are covered by christs righteousness He gives us the victory so that we may be blameless in the final judgement, which is here for all proclaimed SDAs.

Right!! But as born again believer we are freed from it's dominion, sin no longer rules us because we are no longer under the condemnation of the Law, we are under grace.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Finally there is a distinct difference shown in scripture between Gods people and commandment breakers. Ill give you one example.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We have the testimony of Jesus Christ by simply accepting his works of Salvation (which is to believe in him).

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent.

Thus by accepting him as Lord and Saviour of our lives we keep his commandments, though we are not perfect, those who are children of the devil and try to make war with the seed, are not redeemed by the blood of the lamb, they have openly rejected him.

The devil is only angry with those who keep the commandments of God, he doesnt have to worry about the ones who continue on sinning, he knows he already has them. Its the ones who are teaching AND practicing victory over sin that makes him wroth, because he knows he has no power over them!

Because i don't believe the bible teaches sinless perfection does not mean that i don't teach against sin.

Paul was Saved and even after his conversion, he Struggled with the Indwelling Sinful Nature.....

Rom 7:15-25 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


The only way that a person can be "freed from sin" is by virtue of what
"Christ did at the Cross of Calvary" he did it all on our behalf we did not deserve it. As we can all see the problem is not "Satan" but rather sin that dwelleth in us, Satan can tempt but we are the ones that chose whether to obey or disobey, or if it wasn't like that, then it would be an impossibility to be held accountable for our own actions as scriptures teaches.

Enoch walked with God, he lived without sin, if he can do it, we can do it. Righteousness by faith is righteousness by obedience, and obedience does not mean breaking the law of God, it means obeying and being seperate from everyone else. On this earth we will always be sinners, but just because we were born into it gives us no excuse to keep on sinning!

Enoch was not sinless if he was then Solomon did not know about it......Ecclessiastics 5:20 20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Solomon saids that there is not a just man on this earth that doeth good and sinneth not, "if Enoch was sinlessly perfect" he would have to say like this. For there is one just man that walked on earth, that did good, and sinned not. This would mean that Christ was not the only sinless lamb of God, so wouldn't it be kind of counter productive to believe that "Enoch was actually sinless"........

1 Kings 8:46 46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;


Job 15:14-16 14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

15 Behold, he putteth notrust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Rom 3:10-23 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throatis an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouthis full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feetare swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and miseryare in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Jude124]

The first text I brought up validated my point that we are all sinners, we all have sinned because we were born into it. In no way do I claim to be without sin, or that I have never sinned, because the bible clearly states that we all have sinned. But the bible does also clearly tell us we can have victory over sin. All a person can do is submit to Christ and let His righteousness cover us, and He will give us His victory.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

We cannot trust ourselves to live this life, EVERY thing we do, every thought we have must be coordinated by God

Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

If we are living then that means the flesh is alive and we are sinning, and are not covered by Christ, but when we are dead to the flesh and alive to the spirit then it is christ living and not us. We will have these bodies of flesh as long as we are on this earth, but that does not mean that we must live according to the flesh, and follow the lusts of it! This is good news, not something to scoff at its something that should bring us joy to know we dont have to do anything, all we have to do is submit to christ in EVERYTHING.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The only way to heaven, to the precense of Christ is through obedience. If we obey and submit, and submition by choice, which is not being a robot, then we can recieve eternal life. The only reason we do not obey is because we dont really believe His word.

Hosea 4:6...His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, its up to us to know what we believe as seventh day adventists, victory over sin is one of the pillars of our faith. Ellen white talks about attaining victory over sin. If we dont believe the prophet or the word of God then we will be cut off from His people!

Romans 11:20

This is not a theory, this is what the word of God clearly says brother! Isaiah 30:10...this is what the church today wants to hear.."smooth things" and it is definatly a comforting thing to a people like this to hear that victory over sin cannot be attained, the truth will seperate the wheat from the tares in our church, the truth does not make people go home and continue living on how they always have without considering the consequences. Matter of fact go ahead and read all of Hosea chapter 4...it gives a great picture of how our church is today.

If we are called to bring forth good fruit, then how is it possible to bring forth good and bad fruit? Matthew 3:10, tells us clearly what is to happen to all who bring forth bad fruit. Matthew 7:17-19 also tells it clearly.

Haggai 1:5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.

 

[StormyOne]

I guess if this is an issue you want to obsess over no you can't...... however its not about what you are, its about what Jesus has done for you, and in spite of you.... so you accept his righteousness by faith, cooperate with the spirit as it transforms your life and the question of perfection will be a moot point....

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

The first text I brought up validated my point that we are all sinners, we all have sinned because we were born into it. In no way do I claim to be without sin, or that I have never sinned, because the bible clearly states that we all have sinned. But the bible does also clearly tell us we can have victory over sin. All a person can do is submit to Christ and let His righteousness cover us, and He will give us His victory.

We can but only by having our faith properly placed on the Saviour, if we have our faith placed in anything else, other then him, no matter how good that other thing my seem to be, we will fall short from our goal. This does not mean we are sinless though as i meantioned before we are freed from it's dominion, sin no longer has dominion over us.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

We cannot trust ourselves to live this life, EVERY thing we do, every thought we have must be coordinated by God.

I agree but does that mean that we are perfect?

Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

If we are living then that means the flesh is alive and we are sinning, and are not covered by Christ, but when we are dead to the flesh and alive to the spirit then it is christ living and not us.

Romans 8:5-17

5For those who are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.


6For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace,


7because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so it be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.


10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


11But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.


12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh;


13for if ye live according to the flesh ye shall die, but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live.


14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, "Abba! Father!"


16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God;


17and if children, then heirs -- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if so it be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.

(KJV) John 1:12-13 12But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


"We have been given a new nature after being born into God's family," we are now sons of the most high after we received Him (Christ Jesus) and believed in his name, we are not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That does not mean that we do not sin. When we sin the Holy Spirit will convict us and we will feel remorse and immediately ask for forgiveness. When the sinful nature rules us, sin goes unchecked and our sins will dominate us and control our lives.

By surrendering to the enabaling power of the Holy Spirit, we allow him to work within us and battle on our behalf. On our own, we could not come to terms with sin. It is the Holy Spirit that guarantees our salvation and breaks the cycal of the sinful nature, not us.

We will have these bodies of flesh as long as we are on this earth, but that does not mean that we must live according to the flesh, and follow the lusts of it! This is good news, not something to scoff at its something that should bring us joy to know we dont have to do anything, all we have to do is submit to christ in EVERYTHING.

And still you will not be sinless as i showed on my last post, there are secret faults that we cannot discern that is why we are sinners.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

He is crucified with Christ (meaning his faith is properly placed in what Christ did for him at Calvery) never the less he lives, while the old man died a new man takes his place, yet not i he saids (not through his own strengths could he accopmlish it) but Christ lives in him, by the Person and enabaling power of the Holy Spirit: And the life which I now live in the flesh: His relationship and daily walk with the Lord, he lived by the faith of the Son of God who loved him and gave Himself for him in the cross of calvary.

The only way to heaven, to the precense of Christ is through obedience. If we obey and submit, and submition by choice, which is not being a robot, then we can recieve eternal life. The only reason we do not obey is because we dont really believe His word.

If you say your sinless however you want to put it the implication is clear you don't sin, thus your not a sinner, you couldn't be because you don't sin at all, you don't even have secret faults meaning that you are impecable, a sinless human being. Christ grants you with eternal life by simply believing in him not by any works of righteousness which you may have done to obtain it
you will not obtain salvation by being perfectly obidient bieng good is simply not enough there is alot of unbelievers that are very fruitful and obey as best as they possibly can but as we know those works are not enough to save them.

Hosea 4:6...His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, its up to us to know what we believe as seventh day adventists, victory over sin is one of the pillars of our faith. Ellen white talks about attaining victory over sin. If we dont believe the prophet or the word of God then we will be cut off from His people!

I believe the word of life, and i believe we can have victory over sins dominion i never denied that, i just don't believe as some that we can be impecable, what this belife does is that it creates confidence in oneself, alot of people become extremely self righteous just because they believe they can be impecable, they become just like the pharisees that tried to obtain righteouness by obeying. my righteousness is Christ not depending on anything else other then him, Works don't save me faith don't save me, (Christ alone saves me and my faith properly placed in him).

Romans 11:20

This is not a theory, this is what the word of God clearly says brother! Isaiah 30:10...this is what the church today wants to hear.."smooth things" and it is definatly a comforting thing to a people like this to hear that victory over sin cannot be attained, the truth will seperate the wheat from the tares in our church, the truth does not make people go home and continue living on how they always have without considering the consequences. Matter of fact go ahead and read all of Hosea chapter 4...it gives a great picture of how our church is today.

No not really what the church wants to hear is hardcore legalism, people spying on your liberty judging and condeming upon there own righteousness looking at the outward ritual, rather then aiming at washing the inside of the cup which is plagued with filthyness.

The whole doctrine of "sinless perfection" leads us to believe that salvation has to be obtained by works of righteousness rather then by grace through faith in Christ alone as scripture teaches, why because the whole objective is that ones you sin then you most feel that at that moment you let go of Christ, and Christ let go of you because you were not in him, thus you will have a huge crash in your faith and you will begin to question your salvation, when the bible clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone and not by works.

Why is it by works if you believe in sinless perfection, because you are supposed to do something to obtain it (like being perfectly obidient you fall short from that and your no longer under grace) thus it could not be a gift of God's grace. you don't have to work for something that is freely given to you, samething with our salvation it is a gift of God not of works i do not have to work to recieve a gift.

The assumption that salvation has to be merited by preforming, puts needless burdens on us and can hardly give any assurance that we can ever merit it, this belife assumes that none of us can ever know for sure if we're really saved because none of us know if we do have the "right kind" of faith that is really producing enough good works, or bearing enough fruits.

John 5

24" I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
1 John 5
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:5, 8-9

5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved),

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God--

9 not by works, lest any man should boast.

These scriptures above give us all the assurance we need to know that we have eternal life upon accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour. We don't have to wait til the judgment day to know if we were ever saved or not.

If we are called to bring forth good fruit, then how is it possible to bring forth good and bad fruit? Matthew 3:10, tells us clearly what is to happen to all who bring forth bad fruit. Matthew 7:17-19 also tells it clearly.

Being imperfect as scripture teaches we are is not considered bringing forth bad and good fruits at the sametime, the blood of Christ atones for all sin for past, presesnt, and future sins alike, so those hidden sins that we have commited and don't know we are commiting his blood atones for them thus we don't bring forth bad and good fruits, only good fruits.

 

[OntheDL]

Shalom,

The argument here is not if we are sinners. It is what we should become at the end of our transformation. We as a church/body of believers should reproduce the characters of Christ. That's the fruit and proof of being abiding in Him.

We will never reach 'like-God' perfection. That's a Hellenistic concept. But we can certainly be perfectly obedient and God requires it. This does not conflict with our belief of salvation by Grace. We are not saved by keeping the commandments. But because we are saved, we keep His commandments. Faith without work, like body without spirit, is dead.

Rev 14:12 ...here is the patience of the saints that keep the commandment of God and have the faith of Jesus.

I realize I have not reached that point. Neither did Paul nor David reach that during their walk with God. But at the end, Paul said "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,..."

The Devil loves to keep the entire Christendom in bondage of sin for he argues that God is not fair and His commandments are impossible to keep. That it's ok for 'born-again' Christians to sin that grace may abound.

Paul answered this question in Romans 6. He put it plainly that if we are dead with Christ and resurrect with Him, the old sinful self is crucified with Him and raised up a new creation that walks in newness of life.

If I can do all things through Christ, that must include not breaking His law. And God requires this and He makes it possible to us.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy

He that overcomes and endures to the end shall be saved. We can not keep the law by our own power. It is not I but He who lives in me. With the empowerment of the holy spirit, we are able to do His will.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[moicherie]

If the church wants to reach completeness/perfection in God it has some dismanteling to do.......

 

[KayD]

If the church wants to reach completeness/perfection in God it has some dismanteling to do.......

hmmm... agreed.

I've actually read that booklet by Joe Crews, and though most of his points seemed valid, I can't say that I accept the totality of his position. A friend of mine who subscribes to Mr. Crews' position argued with me about the validity of the position, but I still couldn't see it. I could only think to myself that such thinking seemed quite linear to that of Catholic thought (I'm not bashing anyone's denomination here, just making an observation) of the sinless state of Mary and original sin (if one really thinks both positions thru that is).

For those interested, the booklet can be read online at Amazing Facts. Just go to their online library. The booklet is titled Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?.

Be blessed.

 

[Cliff2]

hmmm... agreed.

I've actually read that booklet by Joe Crews, and though most of his points seemed valid, I can't say that I accept the totality of his position. A friend of mine who subscribes to Mr. Crews' position argued with me about the validity of the position, but I still couldn't see it. I could only think to myself that such thinking seemed quite linear to that of Catholic thought (I'm not bashing anyone's denomination here, just making an observation) of the sinless state of Mary and original sin (if one really thinks both positions thru that is).

For those interested, the booklet can be read online at Amazing Facts. Just go to their online library. The booklet is titled Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?.

Be blessed.

I believe the Bible and the SOP makes it veru clear that when we accept Christ as our Saviour we at that moment stand before God just as if we had never sinned.

It is only in and through Jesus Christ that we are perfect.

I have not read the book in question but would have to doubt that he really means what people are saying and if he did I wonder did he ever get to the position of never sinning.

I know some very good people but even they admit they do sin. Sin is not just acts but thoughts as well.

Sort of think that will rule most of us out on that score.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

If the church wants to reach completeness/perfection in God it has some dismanteling to do.......

Alot of people believe this doctrine, though they say they can, i never met one of them that is, all ive seen in my liftime is a bunch of imperfect people just as myself.

 

[innocentman56]

If we were SINLESS we would not be human only Jesus Christ was able to be SINLESS.

 

[KayD]

I believe the Bible and the SOP makes it veru clear that when we accept Christ as our Saviour we at that moment stand before God just as if we had never sinned.

It is only in and through Jesus Christ that we are perfect.

I have not read the book in question but would have to doubt that he really means what people are saying and if he did I wonder did he ever get to the position of never sinning.

I know some very good people but even they admit they do sin. Sin is not just acts but thoughts as well.

Sort of think that will rule most of us out on that score.

Hi Cliff2

I'm really not disputing what the Bible and the SOP states. When we accept Christ, the old man is dead and the new man is born, so to speak. But even Paul had to recognize that he had to die daily to self. Now, if Paul had achieved that state of sinlessness there would be no need to die daily. Neither would he be bothered with that 'thorn'.

Now, I could have greatly misinterpreted the conclusion of Mr. Crews booklet, but I'm still inclined to believe that his original premise was that we as believers can achieve a state of sinlessness. He even stated in the booklet that he was asked by someone whether or not he had achieved that state. It was his response to that question that led me to conclude that he really was arguing for absolute perfection and sinlessness in this mortal body. As I said, however, I could be wrong in my interpretation.

Don't get me wrong, I really love most of the materials that Mr. Crews produced. This was just one that I had a problem with. I'm more than willing to learn or relearn new precepts in Christ, however...

 

[OntheDL]

Greeting,

Why hasn't Christ come to redeem His people???

Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own. It is the privilege of every Christian, not only to look for, but to hasten, the coming of our Lord. Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel! Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come." Maranatha chapter104 (Mar 112.5) Ellen White.

The Devil will try to delay Christ's second coming as long as possible because he knows his time is short. He will deceive the entire Christendom that Jesus did it all for us that we don't have to keep His law and it's impossible to keep His law and be sinless.

Sin is the transgression of God's commandments. However, the bible tells us God requires us to keep His law and be sinless.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

In fact, every blessing or covenant from God has been on the condition of perfect obedience of His believers.

Perfect obedience means no willful sinning. Sinning of ignorance or innocent without prior knowledge is covered by the blood of Christ, Leviticus 4.

True repentance means forsaking the old/former sin. Paul said sinning is like crucifying Christ all over again. If we truly love Christ, can we justify hurting Him over and over? That becomes willful sinning. God has no provision for willful sinning. They are in grave dancer of committing the blasphemy of holy spirit.

If the Devil can tempt you to sin, is Christ not more powerful to help you not to? Is God going to require you to do something impossible?

The bible tells us it is impossible to sin for those who are sealed by the holy spirit.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. ...

1 John 3
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
...
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; ...
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus came not to save us in our sins; He came to save us from our sins. He suffered all our infirmity, yet committed no sin and set example for us to follow:

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Ask yourself this question, if God does not allow us to be tempted beyond our ability to resist 1 Cor 10:13 and God promises in 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, what then is our excuse to continue to sin?

When we, one day, are standing in front of the throne, there will be only one question for us: are you like Jesus (character wise)? If not, why not?

 

[woobadooba]

Can we be sinless?

Yes.

How?

By fostering a will that implicitly seeks to be empowered by God. Thus this is called sanctification.


Can we be perfect?

Yes.

How?

By fostering a faith that abides in Christ. Thus this is called justification.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Greeting,

Greeting my brother..

The Devil will try to delay Christ's second coming as long as possible because he knows his time is short. He will deceive the entire Christendom that Jesus did it all for us that we don't have to keep His law and it's impossible to keep His law and be sinless.

To keep the decalouge is not impossible, but to be sinless is an impossibility.

Sin is the transgression of God's commandments. However, the bible tells us God requires us to keep His law and be sinless.

God requires us to keep his commandments, but to be sinless is to no loger be a sinner by nature, that is something God does not require from us because it's an utter imposibility and his word does not contradict. If we don't sin even ignorantly then we cannot be sinners.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I believe this is better understood if we follow the context of the scriptures rather than building a doctrine of sinlessnes out of a text that if read in it's context does not support it, to me this passage deals more with acts of charity rather than a doctrine of sinlessnes, It is God’s perfection to forgive and love those that hate you, to bless them that curse you, and to pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you.

Perfect obedience means no willful sinning. Sinning of ignorance or innocent without prior knowledge is covered by the blood of Christ, Leviticus 4.

Exactly that is why we continue being sinners and will always be sinners because we have hidden faults that we cannot discern
i don't have any problem with the Ten Commandments i believe we can keep them to it's perfection, but God's law is so much more extensive then the just the decalouge.

1 John 3
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
...
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; ...
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[font=Arial, Helvetica][font=Arial, Helvetica]To sin here is the same as to commit sin (verses. 8, 9), and to commit sin is to practice it. He that abides in Yeshua does not continue practicing sin. As our union with Yeshua destroyes the power of sin in our heart and nature, that is sin no longer dominates us.

The negative expression in (verse.6 ) is put for the positive: He sinneth not, that is, he is obedient, he keeps the commandments in sincerity, and in the course of his life he rejoices abiding in them, and he does those things that are pleasing in God's sight, as is said verse.. 22....

Therefore they keep the Commandments of God abide in the light and knowledge of Yeshuah; and therefore we most conclude that they that sin that is wilfuly practice it, by abiding in the predominant practice of sin have not seen him neither known him. Renunciation of sin is one of the greatest evidence of a spiritual union with Yeshua. Now in regards to the relation between the people that commit sin and the devil like its said in (verse.8). As mentioned elsewhere sinners and saints are distinguished though even saints are [/font][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica][font=Arial, Helvetica]called[/font][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica][font=Arial, Helvetica] sinners, so to commit sin as it is mentioned in (verse.8) it's to practice it as the unregenerated sinners do, that are distinguished from saints, to live under the power and dominion of it; and he who does so is of the devil; he has sowed to please his sinful nature so he has reaped destruction, and thus he belongs to the kingdom of the devil.


is i true that the regenerated person cannot sin as Mr.Crews mentioned in his book? That he cannot commit an act of sin, not so this would run contrary to (ch. 1:9,) where it is made our duty to confess our sins, and supposed that our privilege there is to have our sins forgiven. He cannot sin, in the sense in which Paul says, He cannot continue wilfully practicing sin. He cannot sin as to be considered an unregenerated sinner that abides in sin in opposition to a saint or a servant of God.

He cannot sin as he did before he was a born again child of God, and as unbelievers do that do not know God. And the reason is because he is a born again regenerated child of God redeemed by the blood of the lamb halellujah praise God. [/font][/font]
God bless you.

 

[moicherie]

We can be perfect/complete in Jesus but we will never be sinless in this life anyone who thinks so has probably a commited a sin thinking that.....

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

We can be perfect/complete in Jesus but we will never be sinless in this life anyone who thinks so has probably a commited a sin thinking that.....

I agree, if you ask any of them that suggest that at some point in there lives they can forfeit being sinners if they no longer sin even though there in Christ not one of them will tell you yes.

 

[woobadooba]

We can be perfect/complete in Jesus but we will never be sinless in this life anyone who thinks so has probably a commited a sin thinking that.....

So do you deny the power that God has to deliver us from sin?

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

So do you deny the power that God has to deliver us from sin?

No we don't because he does deliver us from it's dominion but we don't become automatons after we have been delivered from it, we fall very far from perfection so no we cannot be sinless we have many sins we can't even discern these are called secret faults in scripture, thus we fall very short from "sinless perfection" and as i mentioned before to never sin again is to forfeight being a sinner that runs contrary to 1 John 1:8-10.