Can water be used instead of wine for communion?

[MoreCoffee]

Do I take from the course of this discussion that this question has particular significance to Catholics?

Yes, it has significance for Catholics; the wine used in communion must be naturally fermented, no additives, no fortification.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Well ....

Yours are unleavened wafers, correct?

Leavened bread. With many more details, but then I probably don't know all the details on the wafers either. Though MC once shared a video with me about how nuns make them, and I watched it.

That's not as big an issue as it's been made out to be. We lived fine with it for over 1,000 years. We need to remember that when statements were made during the split, people were really angry and things said were intentionally hurtful and said for the purpose of being hurtful. I don't put much credence in such statements. Much like saying something ugly about someone's mom.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Yes, intuitively unleavened made more sense to me. In perhaps a more simplistic sense, that leaven represents sin, and the bread becomes His body.

It's been a while since I read the Orthodox reply. I remember that I was satisfied with it, but now I can't bring too mind what the reason was (sometimes I read more than I can remember apparently, lol).

I am always interested in the answers I hear about Eastern Rite Catholics. Maybe that answers something I think I decided not to post in one of these unity threads - I think EO and CC.

The problem would seem to be that neither is likely to compromise, and the Catholic dogmas, if retained, would excommunicate most EO. I'm not sure just what the Eastern Rite Catholic looks like or believes, but it makes me wonder. Do they depart from any of the dogmas of the Catholic Church? Or is it more a matter of practices only?

Yes leaven was used as an example. Not of sin but of growth and life.
Matt 13:33
I also remember the first time I saw leavened bread being used. It was in a Presbyterian Church. It seemed so wrong as I'd also been taught that leaven represented sin. But a nice old Presbyterian man reminded me that it represents the Kingdom, growth and life.
It all depends on what you do with the leaven and whether it is good leaven or bad.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, it has significance for Catholics; the wine used in communion must be naturally fermented, no additives, no fortification.

So is the objection, then, that if cutting the wine with a little bit of water is okay, then water must be okay, so going wholly with water must be okay?

Separate question: Is kosher wine like Mogen David acceptable?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Oh dear. Do I have to invoke eternal torment and hot pokers now?

No brother, that's already been done by another Catholic last month. I just chuckled, realizing that we all have hard-core literalists. And some just like to pick at nearly healed sores tossing a bit of salt on them along the way.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

So is the objection, then, that if cutting the wine with a little bit of water is okay, then water must be okay, so going wholly with water must be okay?

Separate question: Is kosher wine like Mogen David acceptable?

Sorry, I know this was a serious question but

Do we first get to sniff the screw on cap?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

water can be used in place of wine if you believe him for it

So a belief makes something so? Sounds a bit WoF.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So is the objection, then, that if cutting the wine with a little bit of water is okay, then water must be okay, so going wholly with water must be okay?

Separate question: Is kosher wine like Mogen David acceptable?

None of the above; this thread is intended as humour.

 

[Sophrosyne]

water can be used in place of wine if you believe him for it

This... as Jesus turned water into wine and Catholics believe he also turns wine into his "real" blood then why God cannot turn water into his "real" blood to me is a non issue. I think it is the seriousness given to the ceremony rather than the elements themselves. God is able to turn water into wine and some believe he turns wine into blood somehow so turning water into blood shouldn't be a stretch for them I would think.
If you were stranded on an island with no way to make wine at all then either you do without communion for good or use water or some other juice or make some sort of booze to drink and bread without grain could be tough too.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

So is the objection, then, that if cutting the wine with a little bit of water is okay, then water must be okay, so going wholly with water must be okay?

Cutting?
"One of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. He who saw it bore witness, and his witness is true."

 

[RDKirk]

Cutting?
"One of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. He who saw it bore witness, and his witness is true."

Well, if it's all a joke, I'll back out. I was wondering if this was something that was a known dispute.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well there is a lot of misconceptions on the West side about definitions and what is defined by the Church. For example the doctrine of purgatory is simply defined as the state of purification after death and before entering into God's presence; and our prayers and penances done in the name if the dead, has an edifying effect. How the purging occurs has not been defined, albeit most theologians agree that fire is involved, due to the allusion of fire found in Scripture.

Thank you Erose. I see this from the link Athanasias provided.

I have to say, I have learned a lot about the Catholic Church, but I do realize there is MUCH I do not yet know.

I have spoken with several about Purgatory, and it may be my preconceptions, but I always got a particular impression from them.

Really, I mostly keep realizing how much it is I don't know. But it was your question I started to answer but then didn't post it, that that article made me think about.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

If God can turn wine into blood why can't he turn water? Does God outright state he can only have wine for His communion, or do we assume such from the story of the last supper?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

If I am in the middle of nowhere and wish to do a communion ceremony for a congregation am I restricted from doing it because of simple schematics, such as a lack of real wine and real bread?? Thats my question.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes leaven was used as an example. Not of sin but of growth and life.
Matt 13:33
I also remember the first time I saw leavened bread being used. It was in a Presbyterian Church. It seemed so wrong as I'd also been taught that leaven represented sin. But a nice old Presbyterian man reminded me that it represents the Kingdom, growth and life.
It all depends on what you do with the leaven and whether it is good leaven or bad.

Ah, thank you, MamaK. Was that the Orthodox reason for using it too then?

I remember being confused when I first read the parable where leaven was mentioned in describing the Kingdom. (Many years ago). I was so very used to thinking of leaven representing sin. I guess that idea is still pretty firmly entrenched.

Thank you.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Well, if it's all a joke, I'll back out. I was wondering if this was something that was a known dispute.

I was picking on you in fun. Hang in here. You give me good ammo

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well, if it's all a joke, I'll back out. I was wondering if this was something that was a known dispute.

Not ALL a joke, but it started out that way, and there has continued a mix of joking and seriousness.

The Orthodox Communion has the priest adding water to the wine during the consecration.

I'm not sure about the Catholic?

I'm quite sure neither would use only water.

I know of a few churches that say it's ok to use any liquid at all, so they would surely use water, if necessary. I've only ever had grape juice at those churches though, so I'm sure that would be their preference.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Ah, thank you, MamaK. Was that the Orthodox reason for using it too then?

I remember being confused when I first read the parable where leaven was mentioned in describing the Kingdom. (Many years ago). I was so very used to thinking of leaven representing sin. I guess that idea is still pretty firmly entrenched.

Thank you.

That's (and speaking without joking)only a part of it. I think RDKIRK also hit on a bit of it as wine was not plentiful in some areas and Justin martyr also wrote of it very early on. We use hot water as well and there are reasons.
In Orthodoxy there is always a teaching within the Mysteries themselves.
It's like Christ being Baptized. What sins were being cleansed? Before you say none, think about it considering 2 Corinthians 5:21.
Now back to the humor.

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If God can turn wine into blood why can't he turn water? Does God outright state he can only have wine for His communion, or do we assume such from the story of the last supper?

The example set by Jesus is a lesson in itself; he took the cup and blessed it, it was a cup filled with wine. The example is there in three of the four gospels and in first Corinthians.
Mark 14:23-25 ESV And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. (24) And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. (25) Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

What about gatorade? Grape of course?

There shouldn't even be a question on Grape Gatorade. It's obviously what they were drinking at the Last Supper, and what all instances of oivos refer to in the ancient corpus of Greek literature.