Can water be used instead of wine for communion?

[Lion King]

There shouldn't even be a question on Grape Gatorade. It's obviously what they were drinking at the Last Supper, and what all instances of oivos refer to in the ancient corpus of Greek literature.

It's pretty clear they were drinking from the fruit of the vine.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

It's pretty clear they were drinking from the fruit of the vine.

Watermelon juice?

 

[Willie T]

Ya know.... you have to really feel sorry for all those millions of people in the far northern regions of the earth where they don't produce grapes. I guess they just don't get to be Christians.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Ya know.... you have to really feel sorry for all those millions of people in the far northern regions of the earth where they don't produce grapes. I guess they just don't get to be Christians.

We take it to our's in Alaska.

 

[Willie T]

We take it to our's in Alaska.

Who is "ours"? That doesn't sound like it covers too much of the world.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Who is "ours"? That doesn't sound like it covers too much of the world.

As many of them who desire to come and be baptized.

 

[Willie T]

As many of them who desire to come and be baptized.

That's about what I figured.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

That's about what I figured.

Then why did you ask already knowing the answer?

 

[Arcangl86]

If so can hard water be used?

I realize this was said in jest, but I have thought about it because of experiences with Mormons who use water. I think the answer is yes. Whether it should is a different matter. I think in cases of nesseciaty, it is permissible to substitute other substances for the elements. It's not the intrinsic nature of the elements that are salvific, but rather the promise attached to them. Now like I said, substitution should only be used for reasons of necessity. For instance, Jesus used bread and wine. However, while they did have significance in Jewish practice, they were also something that was readily available. Let's say you have somebody who is an alcoholic, and not able to take in wheat for some medical reason. Are they then banned from communion? But, if necessity does require a substitution, then it should be done in a dignified manner, and not focused upon.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I realize this was said in jest, but I have thought about it because of experiences with Mormons who use water. I think the answer is yes. Whether it should is a different matter. I think in cases of nesseciaty, it is permissible to substitute other substances for the elements. It's not the intrinsic nature of the elements that are salvific, but rather the promise attached to them. Now like I said, substitution should only be used for reasons of necessity. For instance, Jesus used bread and wine. However, while they did have significance in Jewish practice, they were also something that was readily available. Let's say you have somebody who is an alcoholic, and not able to take in wheat for some medical reason. Are they then banned from communion? But, if necessity does require a substitution, then it should be done in a dignified manner, and not focused upon.

There is a thread on that going right now. It's about using only one element instead of two for those who can't tolerate gluten or alcohol. I asked my husband about the alcoholic . He said he'd never seen or heard of a relapse because of the Eucharist.

 

[Willie T]

Then why did you ask already knowing the answer?

I didn't say I "knew" anything, but just figured that exclusive application might be what you meant. You have helped me see I was probably right.

"Ours", to me, would be Christ's inclusive and universal church... whether they ever even heard of the name of the building I might meet in, or not.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I didn't say I "knew" anything, but just figured that exclusive application might be what you meant. You have helped me see I was probably right.

"Ours", to me, would be Christ's inclusive and universal church... whether they ever even heard of the name of the building I might meet in, or not.

There is nothing exclusive about the Church. You are welcome to come and see for your self.
Our's to me also means His Church.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I didn't say I "knew" anything, but just figured that exclusive application might be what you meant. You have helped me see I was probably right.

"Ours", to me, would be Christ's inclusive and universal church... whether they ever even heard of the name of the building I might meet in, or not.

So Orthodox churches have a responsibility to provide wine for non-Orthodox churches? Get your own wine.

 

[prodromos]

Ya know.... you have to really feel sorry for all those millions of people in the far northern regions of the earth where they don't produce grapes. I guess they just don't get to be Christians.

I guess that would raise the question of whether you could use beverages made from the fermentation of grains or potatoes, whatever was traditional in that particular geographic regiion. Then it raises further questions such as what symbolism could be found is using single malt as opposed to a blend, pure vodka or spiced? I don't know enough about saki to pose any questions regarding its options.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I realize this was said in jest, but I have thought about it because of experiences with Mormons who use water. I think the answer is yes. Whether it should is a different matter. I think in cases of necessity, it is permissible to substitute other substances for the elements. It's not the intrinsic nature of the elements that are salvific, but rather the promise attached to them. Now like I said, substitution should only be used for reasons of necessity. For instance, Jesus used bread and wine. However, while they did have significance in Jewish practice, they were also something that was readily available. Let's say you have somebody who is an alcoholic, and not able to take in wheat for some medical reason. Are they then banned from communion? But, if necessity does require a substitution, then it should be done in a dignified manner, and not focused upon.

I may be wrong but I suspect that Latter Day Saints don't use water out of necessity so much as out of a theological error about diet and alcohol.

The principle of substitution of one thing for another that is somewhat similar was covered in the old testament (see Leviticus chapter ten). One could argue that being in a covenant marked by abundant grace such substitutions might be acceptable but there's a lingering doubt when it comes to matters of worshipping God as God asks to be worshipped.

Leviticus 10:1-3 NASB Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. (2) And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. (3) Then Moses said to Aaron, "It is what the LORD spoke, saying, 'By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy, And before all the people I will be honoured.'" ...​

 

[pdudgeon]

just popping in here....

i have read of accounts by POW's of various wars where substitutions were made in enemy prison camps out of necessity, and the mass itself was in secret, (also of necessity) for fear of being found out by their captors.
But the guiding practice was that it was only done by necessity and for no other reason, and that the elements in question were treated as though they were the bread and the wine.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I am not getting this importance of wine specifically having to be used. So North Korean christians rotting in prison are just out of luck for doing communion since they cannot have wine? This restriction of wine and only wine for the ceremony is superficial considering the importance of it.

 

[Athanasias]

I am not getting this importance of wine specifically having to be used. So North Korean christians rotting in prison are just out of luck for doing communion since they cannot have wine? This restriction of wine and only wine for the ceremony is superficial considering the importance of it.

Why not just use legos then or anything heck. If I just believe it to be true maybe it will work.

 

[topcare]

I am not getting this importance of wine specifically having to be used. So North Korean christians rotting in prison are just out of luck for doing communion since they cannot have wine? This restriction of wine and only wine for the ceremony is superficial considering the importance of it.

It's not superficial when that is what Christ used.

 

[Albion]

I am not getting this importance of wine specifically having to be used. So North Korean christians rotting in prison are just out of luck for doing communion since they cannot have wine?

That's right.

This restriction of wine and only wine for the ceremony is superficial considering the importance of it.

Not just everything in our religion can be set aside when it's inconvenient to do it the right way. Besides, you're barking up the wrong theological tree.

Instead of speculating on how an ersatz version of Holy Communion might pass muster with God, think in terms of God not demanding Communion for salvation! And this is not something that only prisoners in an atheist prison camp face; it was faced by our forefathers on the frontier...and they didn't turn to holding make-believe Communions.