CAN sickness glorify God?

[probinson]

But my testimony, and that of others I believe, is that he is saying just that today. That when I ask him about healing/ask others to pray for me he encourages me to persevere, he gives me his peace and assurance that he is at work in my life, that he hasn't forgotten about my physical symptoms but he is working on other things right now.

Unfortunately the only response that I get to this statement is that he can't be, that healing is always his will and if it doesn't happen then there is something in me that is preventing it, that I shouldn't ask because it has already been given and that if I can't grasp this then that is what is keeping me sick. Not those words, maybe, and not all that from any one person, but that is the argument.

As I've said before, I cannot accept that Isaiah 53 is about physical healing, for the reasons that Jim M explains so well. It's not a desire to make God out to be some sort of monster, or to doubt his word, nor is it a deep desire to hold onto my sickness and show where Scripture agrees with my viewpoint. I have too many questions about PHIA, questions I have asked several times and get answered with the statement "it's true because it works", or something similar. I am not the only one to say this, and there are some on this forum who have long term illnesses/disabilities who question this view and testify to his strength in their weakness.

Some people here can't accept that God has a right to say "wait" in answer to a prayer; the argument given against that is "well he can't do, that's not what happened two thousand years ago." Or they say that if healing is taking a while to manifest itself, we need to just keep denying the symptoms the right to remain in our bodies, or keep claiming and praising. Because this is what they did/someone else taught, and it works.

Both groups believe there are teachings/examples from Scripture that illustrate their experience. Both seem so desperate to give God a good reference in the area of healing that we end up arguing, belittling others points of view and casting doubt on their faith/experience, maybe not intentionally but that's how it comes across. Result? A thread that starts off being very positive where people share examples either of healing or of perseverance through difficulties - showing God's strength in the hard times - turns into a slanging match and gets closed.

By now, you know where I stand. Suffice to say, I can not take your testimony or anyone else's for that matter over that of what Jesus said.

 

[LeeS]

Okay, I'll say it again. Just a couple short chapters before Paul talks repeatedly about his infirmities, and the thorn in his flesh (See, 11:29-30, 12:5), and says that the Lord told him "my strength is made perfect in weakness," he says in Ch. 10:9-10, "That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters. For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible."

No one is answering why Paul refers to his bodily presence as being weak, shortly before he says that the Lord's strength is made perfect in weakness, as the answer to is prayer about the thorn.

"Bodily weak," at least that's what it says in the KJV! Does anyone care to explain that without ignoring how close it is to the "strength in weakness" verse?

Next to God we're all weak It's not an infirmaty that puts me in that position but it's that HE IS GOD and I'm not.

 

[JimB]

*****
Didn't Jesus say something about the very elect being deceived?

This applies to both of us, P.
IM infamous O.
~Jim

 

[habeas]

Next to God we're all weak It's not an infirmaty that puts me in that position but it's that HE IS GOD and I'm not.

No, if you read the Chapter, that is how the Corinthians perceived him, comparing him to themselves and others, not how they perceived him against God. They perceived him as being "bodily weak in presence." Paul seems to be chastising them because they looked at his physical infirmities and frailties.

 

[toffeegirl]

great post Jim M thanks for giving me more understanding of Isiah.

probinson you are quick to discount our testimonies, but isn't it by the word of our testimonies we overcome. And i know my testimony has led people to Jesus.
Also you seem to believe that people are not healed instantaneously because they lack faith. (which I've heard all before ). But isn't lack of faith due to a brokeness in our relationship with our Lord and God, and therefore sin. So that the essence of what you are saying is that sickness is due to our own sin, which Jesus expressly stated it wasn't

 

[probinson]

probinson you are quick to discount our testimonies, but isn't it by the word of our testimonies we overcome. And i know my testimony has led people to Jesus.
Also you seem to believe that people are not healed instantaneously because they lack faith. (which I've heard all before ). But isn't lack of faith due to a brokeness in our relationship with our Lord and God, and therefore sin. So that the essence of what you are saying is that sickness is due to our own sin, which Jesus expressly stated it wasn't

When a testimony, be it yours or mine or anyone else's, is at odds with the words spoken by Jesus, yes, I will discount it.

My testimony has led people to the Lord also. My testimony has also resulted in people being healed. However, our experiences and testimonies do not trump the words and actions of Jesus.

I don't have all the answers, nor have I ever claimed to. As much as people don't want to hear it, some are not healed becacuse they lack faith. Perhaps some are not healed because they harbor unforgiveness. Maybe people aren't healed because there is sin in their lives. I don't know.

All I know is if you study the ministry of Jesus here on earth, you will see that He healed everyone who came to Him in faith. I also believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[Strong in Him]

By now, you know where I stand. Suffice to say, I can not take your testimony or anyone else's for that matter over that of what Jesus said.

Well exactly, implication is that I'm not being Scriptural or trying to doubt what Jesus said. But as you yourself had to wait 10 years for healing from your allergies, this attitude seems a little inconsistent. Ok you play with words and insist that God did not say "wait" to you, but as you prayed and 10 years later received, it sounds like quite a wait to me. If you are insisting that Jesus would only do and say today what he did and said in the Gospels, he should have healed you immediately.

But this will all fall on deaf ears and I must have unsubscribed to this thread at least twice already.

 

[probinson]

Well exactly, implication is that I'm not being Scriptural or trying to doubt what Jesus said. But as you yourself had to wait 10 years for healing from your allergies, this attitude seems a little inconsistent. Ok you play with words and insist that God did not say "wait" to you, but as you prayed and 10 years later received, it sounds like quite a wait to me. If you are insisting that Jesus would only do and say today what he did and said in the Gospels, he should have healed you immediately.

But this will all fall on deaf ears and I must have unsubscribed to this thread at least twice already.

I never prayed for my healing. Not once. I thanked God for my healing. Every day. Although I frequently denied allergies the right to exist in my body.

Why did it take me 10 years to see it manifest? I have no idea. But then again, I'm a fallible human being, just like you.

On the other hand, I have a sister in her mid-forties who has been suffering with the same allergies that I suffered with for nearly 40 years now. She said I was nuts when I told her I was healed, but then again, she's the one suffering with allergies 40 years later where I've been free from the same allergies for over 10 years.

NO good, NONE, WHATSOEVER came from my 10 years of allergies. Not one good thing resulted from it. I learned nothing. It didn't help anyone else. I didn't get closer to God as a result of it. I had a lot of snotty tissues and that's about it.

The point is, God's Word is true, whether I know how to appropirate it or not.

[UNNECESSARY BARBS THAT ADD NO VALUE TO DISCUSSION]But this will fall on deaf ears. BLA BLA. Why do I keep posting here? Better things to do with my time, etc. etc.[/UNNECESSARY BARBS THAT ADD NO VALUE TO DISCUSSION]

 

[toffeegirl]

When a testimony, be it yours or mine or anyone else's, is at odds with the words spoken by Jesus, yes, I will discount it.

My testimony has led people to the Lord also. My testimony has also resulted in people being healed. However, our experiences and testimonies do not trump the words and actions of Jesus.

I don't have all the answers, nor have I ever claimed to. As much as people don't want to hear it, some are not healed becacuse they lack faith. Perhaps some are not healed because they harbor unforgiveness. Maybe people aren't healed because there is sin in their lives. I don't know.

All I know is if you study the ministry of Jesus here on earth, you will see that He healed everyone who came to Him in faith. I also believe that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

thanks for your reply

i agree with all you say, especially use of the word some.

as for interpretating the word all; in the study of Jesus' healing ministry in the gospels; i reckon Jim M's in another thread is nearer the truth.

as for me personally i do believe it is God's will for me. But His timing is perfect, and that is also a reason why healing is not always instantaneous. But may be you would call this a lack of faith.

if i'm wrong in waiting, and now is the time,i hope i'm open to His conviction.

 

[toffeegirl]

Also you seem to believe that people are not healed instantaneously because they lack faith. (which I've heard all before ). But isn't lack of faith due to a brokeness in our relationship with our Lord and God, and therefore sin. So that the essence of what you are saying is that sickness is due to our own sin, which Jesus expressly stated it wasn't.

but you still haven't answered this mate

 

[oworm]

Didn't Jesus say something about the very elect being deceived?

THE ELECT CANNOT BE DECEIVED!


Matt24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.



Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

 

[JimB]

But then, if Jesus’ healings are our model (as it is when you say “Jesus healed everyone who came to Him for healing"), then you must allow that every healing Jesus performed was immediate, at least within the same day. There is no instance of a miracle healing in either the Gospels or Acts in which the healing took ten minutes or ten days, much less ten years.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

as for interpretating the word all; in the study of Jesus' healing ministry in the gospels; i reckon Jim M's in another thread is nearer the truth.

as for me personally i do believe it is God's will for me. But His timing is perfect, and that is also a reason why healing is not always instantaneous. But may be you would you call this a lack of faith.

if i'm wrong in waiting, and now is the time,i hope i'm open to His conviction.

If you open your Bible and read starting at Matthew and going all the way through to John, you'll see that not once did Jesus refuse someone healing. Everyone who came to Jesus IN FAITH was healed. Not one was turned away.

Another testimony for you: When my wife and I were dating, we got in a healing debate similar to these here. Her family told me all kinds of reasons why my wife had asthma, allergies, was sick all the time, etc. etc. Her brother-in-law who was at the cemetary, uh, I mean seminary, gave me scripture after scripture to explain her sickness. I learned their denomination's view of Paul, Timothy, Job, and everyone else that we've discussed here ad nauseum. I felt like Paul's thorn was jabbing me! When I told my wife to open the Bible and look at Jesus' ministry here on earth, she saw that Jesus desired for her to be well and something inside her changed. One scripture in particular stood out to her:

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
​

Suddenly, she didn't accept the illness in her body anymore. The thief? She realized she was letting the devil steal her health. She renewed her mind. That was nearly 8 years ago. My wife hasn't had an asthma attack since.

I don't have all the answers, but I find it hard ignore the fact that Jesus did indeed heal all WHO CAME TO HIM IN FAITH.

 

[probinson]

But then, if Jesus’ healings are our model (as it is when you say “Jesus healed everyone who came to Him for healing"), then you must allow that every healing Jesus performed was immediate, at least within the same day. There is no instance of a miracle healing in either the Gospels or Acts in which the healing took ten minutes or ten days, much less ten years.

~Jim

Jesus' healings are not our model. FAITH in Jesus is the "model", if you want to call it that. The commonality is that everyone who came to Jesus in faith was healed.

Jesus = Perfect, God made flesh.
Me = Corruptible, fallible human being.

I gotta long way to go...

 

[JimB]

I see where you are coming from. But I would say that the commonality is that everyone who came to Jesus in faith was instantly healed.

~Jim

 

[toffeegirl]

If you open your Bible and read starting at Matthew and going all the way through to John, you'll see that not once did Jesus refuse someone healing. Everyone who came to Jesus IN FAITH was healed. Not one was turned away.



Another testimony for you: When my wife and I were dating, we got in a healing debate similar to these here. Her family told me all kinds of reasons why my wife had asthma, allergies, was sick all the time, etc. etc. Her brother-in-law who was at the cemetary, uh, I mean seminary, gave me scripture after scripture to explain her sickness. I learned their denomination's view of Paul, Timothy, Job, and everyone else that we've discussed here ad nauseum. I felt like Paul's thorn was jabbing me! When I told my wife to open the Bible and look at Jesus' ministry here on earth, she saw that Jesus desired for her to be well and something inside her changed. One scripture in particular stood out to her:

John 10:10

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

​

Suddenly, she didn't accept the illness in her body anymore. The thief? She realized she was letting the devil steal her health. She renewed her mind. That was nearly 8 years ago. My wife hasn't had an asthma attack since.


I don't have all the answers, but I find it hard ignore the fact that Jesus did indeed heal all WHO CAME TO HIM IN FAITH.

that testimony is absolutly cool. Praise God.

the interpretation your wife had of the truth and application of John's scripture is the truth.And i apply it too my situation.

i think we'll just have to agree to disagree, over God's timing in healing, or how and when it is manifested.

Bless you brother

 

[LeeS]

No, if you read the Chapter, that is how the Corinthians perceived him, comparing him to themselves and others, not how they perceived him against God. They perceived him as being "bodily weak in presence." Paul seems to be chastising them because they looked at his physical infirmities and frailties.

It could have been that he was not built like a carpenter but instead looked like a tent (tallit) maker. Bodily weak in presense does not mean he had a sickness. It would be the same as today comparing a construction worker with a seamstress. One has muscles that are built that other does not.

 

[Strong in Him]

NO good, NONE, WHATSOEVER came from my 10 years of allergies. Not one good thing resulted from it. I learned nothing. It didn't help anyone else. I didn't get closer to God as a result of it. I had a lot of snotty tissues and that's about it.

That's rather sad if you say you learned nothing at all - nothing about waiting on the Lord, or praising him in all circumstances, or that he can use you even if you're not perfectly whole? And with respect, how do you know that you didn't help anyone else? How do you know that someone wasn't encouraged by your faith and insistence on thanking God, even though it may have seemed to them that you had little to thank him for? How do you know that no one you met went home encouraged to keep trusting the Lord in their difficulties? How do you know that the Lord himself was not pleased with your faithfulness and perseverance in difficult circumstances?

If you do know all these things for a fact, and you are sure that you did not grow any closer to the Lord at all, that's very sad - 10 years with no spiritual growth?

Personally I did learn a lot through an almost similar experience in my life. Maybe your faith was perfect and you were perfectly developed/whole in character before this, and there was absolutely nothing God could teach you. Mine wasn't, and while I don't believe he sent allergies in order to teach me, I do thank him that there's an awful lot I learned about him and his faithful, unending, inexhaustible love that I know I would not have learned had he healed me instantly. I know that he will not leave me in the most difficult times, that he does not give up on me when I feel ill and useless and that if I do complain and moan and doubt his love, or that prayer works, he bears with me and does not get angry and strike me with a thunderbolt. I know because I've been there.

 

[probinson]

That's rather sad if you say you learned nothing at all
- nothing about waiting on the Lord, or praising him in all circumstances, or that he can use you even if you're not perfectly whole?

I didn't say I didn't learn anything in 10 years. I said I didn't learn anything in 10 years AS A RESULT OF ALLERGIES. IOW, allergies taught me nothing. They were not a neccesity for my spiritual growth. I grew and I praised God in all circumstances, not for all circumstances. I did not need to be afflicted with allergies to learn this.

And with respect, how do you know that you didn't help anyone else? How do you know that someone wasn't encouraged by your faith and insistence on thanking God, even though it may have seemed to them that you had little to thank him for? How do you know that no one you met went home encouraged to keep trusting the Lord in their difficulties? How do you know that the Lord himself was not pleased with your faithfulness and perseverance in difficult circumstances?

Many people were encouraged by my faith in God, not by my allergies. I don't look back at my allergies and say, wow, what a wonderful thing. Everything that I learned and everyone who was encouraged could have occured without me having allergies. I am not thankful for my allergies. I am thankful for my God, who made it so that I can sit here today allergy-free.

If you do know all these things for a fact, and you are sure that you did not grow any closer to the Lord at all, that's very sad - 10 years with no spiritual growth?

That's not what I said at all. I said that ALLERGIES did not result in a closer walk with God. I grew spiritually, and I still grow spiritually daily, but it is not a result of allergies, a cold, headache, flu, whatever. It is a result of my relationship with the Father, who doesn't need to inflict or even permit some kind of illness to teach me something.

Personally I did learn a lot through an almost similar experience in my life. Maybe your faith was perfect and you were perfectly developed/whole in character before this, and there was absolutely nothing God could teach you. Mine wasn't, and while I don't believe he sent allergies in order to teach me, I do thank him that there's an awful lot I learned about him and his faithful, unending, inexhaustible love that I know I would not have learned had he healed me instantly. I know that he will not leave me in the most difficult times, that he does not give up on me when I feel ill and useless and that if I do complain and moan and doubt his love, or that prayer works, he bears with me and does not get angry and strike me with a thunderbolt. I know because I've been there.

This is what I find sad. You couldn't have learned this any other way? Are you sure? I sure did. I didn't need allergies to show me the unconditional love of the Father. I've felt and known the unconditional love of the Father from the time I was very young. I never said I was perfect and that God couldn't teach me anything, but God doesn't need to use an illness to teach me something. I'm listening to Him, right now, every day, to hear what He will say to me. He doesn't need to strike me to get my attention.

 

[Blade]

Hello all! Some will remember me I've been gone a long time but Jesus is still lord. Ah Jim.. your still a great blessing..and I mean that.

We feel closer to God in sickness maybe because when were not sick we focus on life and not him. So in sickness we focus more on him. Yes all who came to Jesus were healed. My bible tells me he never changes.

But my answer to Jim's ? would be yes. It is not from him.

Jesus I am so in love with you!

Focus on JESUS.