CAN sickness glorify God?

[habeas]

Here tis:

20 For the invisible things of himfrom the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead;so that theyare without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations,and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,and to birds, and fourfooted beasts,and creeping things.

Romans 1:20-23. The word Phthartos is translated as "corruptible" or "perishing"

We don't have to worry about our "perishing" bodies, however:

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:54​

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1 Corinthians 9:25

 

[LeeS]

I think you missed my point.

The only reason why people are sick is because we all live in this world and we have bodies. It is as simple as that.

Adam and Eve also lived in this world and they had bodies and they were not sick until the fall. And was that due to someones sin? Yup!

The glory of God is displayed when someone is healed through His power.

I don't believe I've written anything that says differently.

Any other doctrine to try and explain why people are sick is just clutching a straws and absolute nonsense.

Do you consider Deut 28:15-69 doctrine of God or man? I made it clear that it was the sin of "someone". Not always the sin of the person sick. The steps of the righteous are ORDERED of the Lord and He does not pour curses (sickness) out onto His children. His children do get sick but it's HIS fault.

Hey, and if sickness is the result of sin, then all of our doctors should be pastors!

A couple of my doctors have laid hands on me and prayed. A few times I was healed miraculously. Then a few other times God worked through the doctors and the knowledge He gave them regarding medicine to accomplish the physical healing I needed.

I don't understand what the issue is with people understanding that none of us are perfected and frequently we pick things up for varied reasons. For those who were born with sickness it is not their fault. It may or may not be the fault of one of their parents or their parents doctor. It does not matter. God is the healer. Plain and simple. He wants each of us whole. We may not all get there in this lifetime. It does not matter. He loves us and died for our wholeness. Spiritually, mentally, and physically.

If I don't manifest all that wholeness in my physical body in this body that is OK. I will serve Him though, not because I'm sick but because He is worthy of it.

In my view people who are sick can and should glorify God even though they are sick. Well people should glorify God. Sickness cannot glorify anything but itself. Healing from sickness glorifys God.

 

[LeeS]

Alleuia Oscarr, you know what some of us struggle with every day. These people don't know what they are talking about. It's so easy to say things like these when you have not had long-term illness or disability. It was interesting our vicar talked about the need for endurance today. I really miss the fellowship here.

I've had long-term illness and disability.

 

[LeeS]

I was just reading that very passage in Romans last night before I went to sleep. Are you spying on me? Now, I need to find the verse about corruptible nature of our flesh.

No one is denying that our flesh is corruptable. Its corrupting naturaly via aging...sickness is a whole other corruption not instilled by God.

 

[calidog]

2Co 12:7 And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.

2Co 12:8 And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.

2Co 12:9 And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

2Co 12:10 So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on
account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

 

[franky67]

2Co 12:7 And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.

2Co 12:8 And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.

2Co 12:9 And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

2Co 12:10 So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on
account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

Since we're back on the thorn, You might look up the word sufficient, which is used in KJV version, and find that it the verb arkeo, which means, enough, but also means to ward off, or raise a barrier.

It as a verb, God's Grace is doing something to ward off the thorn. God's giftings to Paul were to be used to protect him, and the Lord was reminding Paul of that.


2 Cor 12:10 "unkind words, cruel attacks, troubles."

do these sound like disease? they are persecutions for preaching the Gospel.

God Bless
franky

 

[Strong in Him]

2Co 12:7 And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.

2Co 12:8 And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.

2Co 12:9 And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

2Co 12:10 So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on
account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

Good post, but some people bend over backwards to prove that Paul's thorn cannot possibly have been physical. They then seem to dismiss the fact that God didn't do as he requested by making out that he suffered persecution, which is "allowed", even noble. Anything to show that God cannot be glorified in illness.

 

[habeas]

You can't really read the context of the "thorn" and still believe its anything other than a physical infirmity.

I read Corinthians today. In Chapter 10:1, Paul says in their presence he is "base among" them, "but being absent am bold toward you." In 10:9-10, he says "That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters. For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible." Paul is referring to himself here.

In Chapter 11, v. 6, he refers to that fact that he is "rude in speech yet not in knowledge."

Then, 11: 29-30, he states "Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not. If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities." In Chapter 12:5 he says "of such an one will I glory; yet of myself I will not glory, but in my infirmities." In Corinthians 12:7-8 he talks about his "thorn in the flesh," and that he "besought the Lord thrice, that it may depart from me." He says the Lord's response was, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." 12:9.

Paul had clearly referred to his "bodily presence" being weak in chapter 9, and continually speaks of his "infirmities." Again in 12:9-10, Paul says "Most gladly will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses fo Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then I am strong."

If "infirmities" is the same as "persecutions," why does he mention them separately?

Then, Paul makes reference to his problems with his eyes, speaking about his "infirmities" in Galations 4:13-15:

Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto thee at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; bur received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.....for I bear you record that if it had been possible ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

In the next chapter Galations, he says: "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." 5:11. Why is he writing large letters, could it be he has problems with his eyesight?

 

[LeeS]

Good post, but some people bend over backwards to prove that Paul's thorn cannot possibly have been physical. They then seem to dismiss the fact that God didn't do as he requested by making out that he suffered persecution, which is "allowed", even noble. Anything to show that God cannot be glorified in illness.

I feel this to be a misrepresentation of what is actually taught by the "some people" referred to. No one here has said that people cannot glorify God while being sick...but it's the people doing the glorifying, not the sickness.

There is much room for interpretation of what Pauls thorn but it's not people just grabbing for straws. Have you done ALL the reasearch yourself to know for sure or have you only looked at one view and adopted it because it fits your situation?

 

[LeeS]

Since we're back on the thorn, You might look up the word sufficient, which is used in KJV version, and find that it the verb arkeo, which means, enough, but also means to ward off, or raise a barrier.

It as a verb, God's Grace is doing something to ward off the thorn. God's giftings to Paul were to be used to protect him, and the Lord was reminding Paul of that.


2 Cor 12:10 "unkind words, cruel attacks, troubles."

do these sound like disease? they are persecutions for preaching the Gospel.

God Bless
franky

Good post.

 

[LeeS]

You can't really read the context of the "thorn" and still believe its anything other than a physical infirmity.

Upon complete study one can.

 

[calidog]

Since we're back on the thorn, You might look up the word sufficient, which is used in KJV version, and find that it the verb arkeo, which means, enough, but also means to ward off, or raise a barrier.

It as a verb, God's Grace is doing something to ward off the thorn. God's giftings to Paul were to be used to protect him, and the Lord was reminding Paul of that.


2 Cor 12:10 "unkind words, cruel attacks, troubles."

do these sound like disease? they are persecutions for preaching the Gospel.

God Bless
franky

a thorn in the flesh sounds like a thorn in the FLESH

 

[justinstout]

a thorn in the flesh sounds like a thorn in the FLESH

If Paul's thorn "sounds like" a sickness or disease to you, then how do you explain these verses:


Numbers 33:55:
"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

NOT SICKNESS here


Joshua 23:13:
"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you."

NOT SICKNESS here


Judges 2:3:
"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you."

NOT SICKNESS here



I find it pretty pathetic that the passage about Paul's thorn in the flesh is the only thing people can come up with to supposedly support their "God-wants-some-people-sick" mentality.

 

[calidog]

If Paul's thorn "sounds like" a sickness or disease to you, then how do you explain these verses:


Numbers 33:55:
"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

NOT SICKNESS here


Joshua 23:13:
"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you."

NOT SICKNESS here


Judges 2:3:
"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you."

NOT SICKNESS here



I find it pretty pathetic that the passage about Paul's thorn in the flesh is the only thing people can come up with to supposedly support their "God-wants-some-people-sick" mentality.

some pathetically interpret bible passages

 

[justinstout]

Good post, but some people bend over backwards to prove that Paul's thorn cannot possibly have been physical. They then seem to dismiss the fact that God didn't do as he requested by making out that he suffered persecution, which is "allowed", even noble. Anything to show that God cannot be glorified in illness.

Haha.. "anything we can do to show God cannot be glorified in illness", huh?

I don't recall saying that God could not be glorified IN or during illness. I simply stated that God is NOT glorified BY the illness itself!

Why do all of you continue holding onto the thorn issue? If God is so glorified through diseased bodies, then find me a whole load of Scriptures to back it up. It seems to be a very rampant doctrine these days.. that God uses torment, pain, calamity, misfortune, heartache, and depression to "help us grow" as believers. Where's your scriptural proof to back up this ridiculous garbage of a doctrine? The truth is, no scriptural proof exists, because that false doctrine is a stink in the nostrils of God!

 

[justinstout]

some pathetically interpret bible passages

That's what I figured.
No scriptural proof from any of you.

 

[LeeS]

some pathetically interpret bible passages

Would you have inserted the word "sickness in the flesh" into the scripture verses justin gave?

 

[calidog]

Would you have inserted the word "sickness in the flesh" into the scripture verses justin gave?

that's a pretty far reach for context.

 

[justinstout]

Numbers 33:55:
"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

Joshua 23:13:
"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the L
ORD your God hath given you."

Judges 2:3:
"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you."


If we are going to say that Paul's thorn was literally "in his flesh," we should also take the statements in these verses literally. The only problem with this reasoning is that the inhabitants of the land were giants, and it would be difficult to fit them into your sides, much less your eyes.

No, "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes" are obviously figures of speech used to describe living beings (in this case the Canaanites), not diseases. Paul is saying that this messenger of Satan was irritating, not that it was literally "in his flesh." A modern-day equivalent would be, "People who make dead, traditional statements about Paul's thorn and fight you on healing can be a pain in the neck." This does not mean that you experience neck pain whenever you meet such a person. It is a figurative expression, although not a very nice one, just as "thorn in the flesh" is a figurative expression.

If you take in and flesh literally, you must conclude that Paul had a demon, because he would have a messenger of Satan in his body. That is clearly not the case, because the messenger buffeted him, which is act that must take place from the outside, never the inside. (More on this shortly.)

People have made a big deal about the words in and flesh, but if that is fair, I demand an equal right to make a big deal about the words thorn and the!

If you're going to take flesh literally, it seems to me that you must also take thorn literally. This would explain Paul's thorn: Paul's thorn in the flesh was a thorn in the flesh! He sat down in a briar patch or leaned against a cactus somewhere and got a thorn in his flesh. He couldn't get rid of it, and God wouldn't remove it for him. Timothy couldn't help him because he didn't have any tweezers with him. Sound reasonable? No, that would hardly be "the messenger of Satan."

Paul did not say that he had a thorn in his flesh. He said it was a thorn in the flesh. Therefore, you cannot take the word flesh as proof that the "thorn" was "in" Paul's flesh. If you were sick, would you way, "I have a pain in the stomach," or "The head hurts?" No, you would refer to "my stomach" and "my head," wouldn't you? Why should you assume that a "thorn in the flesh" means a "thorn in my flesh" when that isn't what Paul said?

Paul said that Epaphroditus and Trophimus were sick, but he never attributes that to a thorn in the flesh. When Paul meant sick, he said sick; he didn't couch it in spiritual terms. He never used either "thorn in the flesh" or "the messenger of Satan" to refer to anyone else's sickness.

 

[probinson]

Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto thee at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; bur received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.....for I bear you record that if it had been possible ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Yeah. Paul is saying that people were generous to him before. Next verse:

Galatians 4:16


Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?


​

And now Paul is like, what happened? You were willing to give me the shirt off your back (your eyes), and now I'm your enemy? Paul is using a figure of speech here, much like Jesus, when He said that you should pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin.

In the next chapter Galations, he says: "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." 5:11. Why is he writing large letters, could it be he has problems with his eyesight?

Galatians 6:11 (Amplified)


See with what large letters I am writing with my own hand. [Mark carefully these closing words of mine.]


​

Paul wanted to EMPHASIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING. SEE WHAT LARGE LETTERS I'VE TYPED WITH MY OWN KEYBOARD? PAY ATTENTION!