CAN sickness glorify God?

[Andrew]

This is what I find sad. You couldn't have learned this any other way? Are you sure? I sure did. I didn't need allergies to show me the unconditional love of the Father. I've felt and known the unconditional love of the Father from the time I was very young. I never said I was perfect and that God couldn't teach me anything, but God doesn't need to use an illness to teach me something. I'm listening to Him, right now, every day, to hear what He will say to me. He doesn't need to strike me to get my attention.

Amen. People ought to read the Bible to find out HOW, biblically, we are to grow in Christ. Is it by sicknesses, or by some other means...I dont recall the Bible ever saying that sickness makes us grow closer to God and that we should thus thank Him for them.

 

[Strong in Him]

This is what I find sad. You couldn't have learned this any other way? Are you sure? I sure did. I didn't need allergies to show me the unconditional love of the Father. I've felt and known the unconditional love of the Father from the time I was very young. I never said I was perfect and that God couldn't teach me anything, but God doesn't need to use an illness to teach me something. I'm listening to Him, right now, every day, to hear what He will say to me. He doesn't need to strike me to get my attention.

I don't know, and will never know, if I could have learnt it any other way. I had allergies; whatever I might possibly have learnt without them is irrelevant. But I learnt an awful lot while I had them. You say you didn't need allergies to show you the unconditional love of the Father? Good for you. You say God didn't need to use an illness to teach you, again, good for you. But we both had them. You're saying you learnt nothing through yours, I'm saying I learnt more about God, about patience, about persistence etc. I've already said that I don't believe he gave them to me in order to teach me these things. Just as I don't believe that because I have M.E I am more sinful/unholy than my husband who doesn't have it. Or that I'm so wilful/stupid that God cannot get my attention any other way. I have this illness because I have it, but the Lord can and is using the time while I have it to teach and mould me and show me that he can use me. He IS using for good something which the devil intended to destroy. Just as my teenage allergy years were not wasted by my thinking "well, I'll become a Christian and serve you when you heal me Lord. If you want me to come to you, serve you and learn anything you have to heal me first." He started teaching and using me right there where I was with what I had.

Someone once said "blessed is the fever that brings Christ to the bedside." Some people would never seek him if it weren't for desperate circumstances. Paul said he preached the Gospel to the Galatians because he was sick - he had to make an unscheduled stop there. You say "he doesn't need to strike me to get my attention," I have said that I don't believe the Lord did strike/has stricken me. Just that he is teaching me, and working in me and using this illness.

 

[JimB]

Unfortunately, a doctrine that equates sickness with sin does not allow its advocates, despite the mass of scriptures to the contrary, to see how God can use illness to discipline and refine believers and, in effect, ties the hands of the Almighty (which is technically impossible, of course) and paint themselves into a corner where, sadly, they will remain unaware of this aspect of God’s dealings with His creation and (excuse the mixed metaphors) puts on theological blinders that keeps them in the dark – and unawareness - concerning how God really deals with us.

Tragically, when PHIA’ers are sick, they will allow only one avenue through which God can work – healing – and are blind to anything else God might say or do through the course of an illness. That’s the danger of the PHIA doctrine and why I resist it.

The LORD will strengthen him on his bed of illness; You will sustain him on his sickbed. Psalm 41.3

Does God heal? Of course. Does He heal according to the PHIA formula? Well, sometimes. But He is bigger than a formula.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

Tragically, when PHIA’ers are sick, they will allow only one avenue through which God can work – healing – and are blind to anything else God might say or do through the course of an illness. That’s the danger of the PHIA doctrine and why I resist it.

Tragically? Danger? Huh? This is such a load of nonsense, I don't even know where to start.

God can use me when I'm sick. God can teach me things when I'm sick. God doesn't need to use that sickness for that purpose. I can just as easily hear what God is saying to me without having to be inflicted with some illness or disease. I can hear and see what God is doing even when I'm sick, not BECAUSE I'm sick. You make it sound like PHIA'ers focus only on their sickness and nothing else if they get sick. Baloney. I hear God and am used of God even if I don't feel well. I said it before and I'll say it again. I praise God in every circumstance, not for every circumstance.

Tragically, when someone who rejects that healing was provided for at the cross goes to the doctor and they tell them there's nothing more they can do for them and they're going to die, they die unnecessarily. Sure, that person is no longer suffering and is now in a much better place, but they can no longer preach the gospel. They can no longer help the poor. They can no longer do anything for the Kingdom. That's the danger of your doctrine and why I resist it.

 

[JimB]

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Tragically? Danger? Huh? This is such a load of nonsense, I don't even know where to start.

God can use me when I'm sick. God can teach me things when I'm sick. God doesn't need to use that sickness for that purpose. I can just as easily hear what God is saying to me without having to be inflicted with some illness or disease. I can hear and see what God is doing even when I'm sick, not BECAUSE I'm sick. You make it sound like PHIA'ers focus only on their sickness and nothing else if they get sick. Baloney. I hear God and am used of God even if I don't feel well. I said it before and I'll say it again. I praise God in every circumstance, not for every circumstance.

Tragically, when someone who rejects that healing was provided for at the cross goes to the doctor and they tell them there's nothing more they can do for them and they're going to die, they die unnecessarily. Sure, that person is no longer suffering and is now in a much better place, but they can no longer preach the gospel. They can no longer help the poor. They can no longer do anything for the Kingdom. That's the danger of your doctrine and why I resist it.

See what I mean.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

See what I mean.

~Jim

Yes. I do. This is pointless.

 

[Strong in Him]

Tragically, when someone who rejects that healing was provided for at the cross goes to the doctor and they tell them there's nothing more they can do for them and they're going to die, they die unnecessarily. Sure, that person is no longer suffering and is now in a much better place, but they can no longer preach the gospel. They can no longer help the poor. They can no longer do anything for the Kingdom. That's the danger of your doctrine and why I resist it.

Not necessarily, the Lord can and does work miracles, and can and does heal even if the sick person has never heard of PHIA. Just because a doctor says that medically they can do no more for someone, doesn't mean the sick person will give up and die; they may decide to seek the Lord instead.

No one can preach the Gospel etc when they die and many men and women of God have died. If God wanted us all to live indefinitely to do his work here on earth, then we'd all live at least as long as Moses - and he was a youngster compared with some of them. It is God who gives life and he knows when we will all leave this life. What are you going to do when you get to heaven? Spend your time telling people that your doctrine was more correct than theirs because you had 20 more years on earth than they did? When we get to heaven, who will care how long they were alive on this fallen planet for? The only thing the Lord will want to know is how we used the time we did have.

 

[oworm]

Whats PHIA ?

 

[Strong in Him]

Whats PHIA ?

Physical Healing in the Atonement. The teaching that Jesus died not only for our sins but all our illnesses too. So we don't need to ask for healing, just realisethat if we accept what he did on the cross then we are already healed.

 

[LeeS]

Unfortunately, a doctrine that equates sickness with sin does not allow its advocates, despite the mass of scriptures to the contrary, to see how God can use illness to discipline and refine believers and, in effect, ties the hands of the Almighty (which is technically impossible, of course) and paint themselves into a corner where, sadly, they will remain unaware of this aspect of God’s dealings with His creation and (excuse the mixed metaphors) puts on theological blinders that keeps them in the dark – and unawareness - concerning how God really deals with us.

Tragically, when PHIA’ers are sick, they will allow only one avenue through which God can work – healing – and are blind to anything else God might say or do through the course of an illness. That’s the danger of the PHIA doctrine and why I resist it.

The LORD will strengthen him on his bed of illness; You will sustain him on his sickbed. Psalm 41.3

Does God heal? Of course. Does He heal according to the PHIA formula? Well, sometimes. But He is bigger than a formula.

~Jim

These statements about the faith of others is untrue. You don't know peoples hearts. Nor do you know what they do or do not do if they experience a sickness. You may have come across a few who really do live according to the above statements but on the whole it does not describe what I've experienced or seen or read or heard. There is no PHIA formula but there is the WORD OF GOD which is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[JimB]

These statements about the faith of others is untrue. You don't know peoples hearts. Nor do you know what they do or do not do if they experience a sickness. You may have come across a few who really do live according to the above statements but on the whole it does not describe what I've experienced or seen or read or heard. There is no PHIA formula but there is the WORD OF GOD which is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

It is statements like this claiming that your doctrine is the “Word of God” and therefore cannot be interpreted in any other way than you interpret it that makes these discussions difficult.

Maybe I have generalized too much but I feel I am echoing what I have read on posts in these threads. I will accept your statement that the shoe does not fit you, but, with all respect, I certainly do not think you have a corner on the “Word of God” or how it is to be rightly divided.

But then that’s JMO.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

Not necessarily, the Lord can and does work miracles, and can and does heal even if the sick person has never heard of PHIA. Just because a doctor says that medically they can do no more for someone, doesn't mean the sick person will give up and die; they may decide to seek the Lord instead.

True. But when you're going under for the third time, that's not the time to learn how to swim.

 

[ProAmerican]

It is statements like this claiming that your doctrine is the “Word of God” and therefore cannot be interpreted in any other way than you interpret it that makes these discussions difficult.

Maybe I have generalized too much but I feel I am echoing what I have read on posts in these threads. I will accept your statement that the shoe does not fit you, but, with all respect, I certainly do not think you have a corner on the “Word of God” or how it is to be rightly divided.

But then that’s JMO.

~Jim

Here is something that you may have not thought of.

Can suffering glorify God?


John 21:19 "This spake he [Jesus] signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me."

If you will remember Jesus told Peter that when he was young he went where he wanted to, but when he was older, others would lead him to where he wouldn't want to go.

So, did Peter being crucified, and the, pain and suffering he felt when this occured, glorify God?

This scripture says that this death which Peter went through glorified God.

 

[JimB]

But, you will be told, this is persecution, not sickness, as though somehow a case of the flu is more important than being crucified.

~Jim

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Essentially, people who say "I believed for something but did not get it... and therefore God must not have wanted me to have it.." are placing their "faith" into the position of being absolute, while dimishing the integrity of God to questionable.
If it comes down to my faith needing some work, or God being absolute... I will have to get busy. Because His is ever true and trustworthy.

 

[JimB]

Dids, Do you think it is possible for a person to believe for something that is totally contrary to God’s will? This is where I may not be clear on what you are saying.

For the record, I not only believe it is possible I think it happens all the time.

~Jim

 

[franky67]

Hi Jim,

That quote you gave from Psalms 41:3 a while back, Here is the wording in the Hebrew bible,

"The Lord will preserve him, and keep him alive, he is called happy on the earth, and You will not deliver him to the will of his enemies."

The verse 4 reads,

"The Lord will strengthen him on his sickbed, whenever he is prostrate, You will heal all his illnesses."

God Bless

Franky

 

[LeeS]

It is statements like this claiming that your doctrine is the “Word of God” and therefore cannot be interpreted in any other way than you interpret it that makes these discussions difficult.

Maybe I have generalized too much but I feel I am echoing what I have read on posts in these threads. I will accept your statement that the shoe does not fit you, but, with all respect, I certainly do not think you have a corner on the “Word of God” or how it is to be rightly divided.

But then that’s JMO.

~Jim

Show me the exact point where I said MY doctrine is the "“Word of God” and therefore cannot be interpreted in any other way than you interpret it". YOU interpreted my statement wrongly and I feel you interpret many peoples statements wrongly. Your interpreations of what is being said is untrue.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Good question Jim... I can tell you are reading my posts now!!!

Answer... two parts.

You have a mind of the spirit, and a mind of the soul.

The mind of the soul is our noodle, which can pretty much grab hold of any knowlege and accept it... right or wrong.

The mind of the spirit is where we believe. The mind of the spirit is not like the mind of the soul. I believe as born again believers we have a built in truth detector/lie rejector, and therefore we cannot believe lies, nor can we believe anything outside of the will of God.

We had a discussion going in WoF a while back where I held the position that the mind of the spirit cannot believe lies. It cannot recieve lies, hear lies(no communition with the devil), or hold to them. Our reborn spirit gets its information from the Holy Spirit, who has no lies to tell us. So the only place lies could come from would be lies we generating from within ourselve. Jesus said the devil is the father (generator) of lies... not our reborn spirit. If our spirits are reborn (and they are) then as children of God we cannot generate lies. That is a property of all children of God.

Joh 8:43-47 KJV
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

The devil and his children generates lies... not God and His children.

1 John 2 is foundatonal for our identification and understanding of who and what we are:


1Jo 2:20-27 KJV
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

We have all truth, and there is no lie in the truth. That is why when we listen to our spirits, we can always trust our spirits. There are no lies coming out of our spirit. There is no lie in our spirit. The anointing here is not talking aout the Holy Spirit, it is talking about the "Christing" that took place when we were born again. We were made part of the body of Chirst and share His spirit. There is no lie, falsehood, or error in Him.

Enough for now.

Dids, Do you think it is possible for a person to believe for something that is totally contrary to God’s will? This is where I may not be clear on what you are saying.

For the record, I not only believe it is possible I think it happens all the time.

~Jim

 

[JimB]

Hi Jim,

That quote you gave from Psalms 41:3 a while back, Here is the wording in the Hebrew bible,

"The Lord will preserve him, and keep him alive, he is called happy on the earth, and You will not deliver him to the will of his enemies."

The verse 4 reads,

"The Lord will strengthen him on his sickbed, whenever he is prostrate, You will heal all his illnesses."

God Bless

Franky

Good point, Franky. I guess we pick the translation that best suits us. But I will accept your version. Here are all the translations of Psalm 41.3-4 at Biblbegateway.com (list A-Z order to avoid favoritism). Take your pick.

AMP3The Lord will sustain, refresh, and strengthen him on his bed of languishing; all his bed You [O Lord] will turn, change, and transform in his illness. 4I said, Lord, be merciful and gracious to me; heal my inner self, for I have sinned against You.


ASV 3 Jehovah will support him upon the couch of languishing: Thou makest all his bed in his sickness. 4 I said, O Jehovah, have mercy upon me: Heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.

CEV 3You always heal them and restore their strength when they are sick. 4I prayed, "Have pity, LORD! Heal me, though I have sinned against you."

DARBY 3Jehovah will sustain him upon the bed of languishing: thou turnest all his bed in his sickness. 4As for me, I said, Jehovah, be gracious unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.

ESN 3The LORD sustains him on his sickbed; in his illness you restore him to full health.4As for me, I said, "O LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against you!"

HCSB 3 The LORD will sustain him on his sickbed; You will heal him on the bed where he lies. 4 I said, "LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against You."

KJ21 3The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing; Thou wilt turn him on his bed in his sickness. 4I said, "LORD, be merciful unto me; heal my soul, for I have sinned against Thee."

KJV 3The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness. 4I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.

MSG 3Whenever we're sick and in bed, GOD becomes our nurse, nurses us back to health. 4I said, "GOD, be gracious! Put me together again-- my sins have torn me to pieces."

NAS 3The LORD will sustain him upon his sickbed; In his illness, You [a]restore him to health. 4As for me, I said, "O LORD, be gracious to me; Heal my soul, for (B)I have sinned against You."

NIRV 3The Lord will take care of him when he is lying sick in bed. He will make him well again. 4I said, "Lord, show me your favor. Heal me. I have sinned against you."

NIV 3 The LORD will sustain him on his sickbed and restore him from his bed of illness. 4 I said, "O LORD, have mercy on me; heal me, for I have sinned against you."

NIVUK 3 The LORD will sustain him on his sick-bed and restore him from his bed of illness. 4I said, O LORD, have mercy on me; heal me, for I have sinned against you.

NKJV 3 The LORD will strengthen him on his bed of illness. You will sustain him on his sickbed. 4 I said, “LORD, be merciful to me; Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You.”

NLT 3The LORD nurses them when they are sick and eases their pain and discomfort. 4 "O LORD," I prayed, "have mercy on me. Heal me, for I have sinned against you."

NlV 3The Lord will give him strength on his bed of sickness. When he is sick, You will make him well again. 4As for me, I said, "O Lord, have loving-kindness for me. Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You."

YLT 3Jehovah supporteth on a couch of sickness, All his bed Thou hast turned in his weakness. 4 I said, `O Jehovah, favour me, Heal my soul, for I did sin against Thee,'


​

BTW, I did not find at Biblegateway the translation you used. What was it?


~Jim