Can Science Clean Up Swine?

[safswan]

And..
From Noah until the law was given to Moses for Israel all men could eat every moving thing and all plants. That would have included Abraham, Issac, etc.

Not true.The plants to be eaten were identified in the following passage:
Genesis 1:
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Since Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean it is also reasonable to conclude that he only ate the clean and that these were the every moving thing given to him.

 

[safswan]

You make a good point - God didn’t give Adam every single plant, nor tree. He gave him every tree that produces fruit except the tree of the knowledge of good & evil.

“Every” and “all” needs to be understood in it’s proper context.

It’s just like Paul saying “every creature of God is good ” in 1 Timothy 4:4, yet this statement is qualified by being sanctified(made set-apart) by the word of God in verse 5.

The “word of God” in this instance
Is the Torah, and swine was never sanctified(set-apart) in the Torah. Swine was never sanctified. You can’t pray over unclean animals and make them clean.

Exactly.They also claim the designation in Noah's time of clean and unclean was for ceremonial purposes and hence would have God reject the unclean animals for sacrifices but then give them to man for food.This is completely false and should put to rest their misunderstanding but long held beliefs,even if false,are hard to let go.

 

[safswan]

I want to obey God's commandments, just stop putting commandments that were never meant to control anyone except Israel as something we too must do.

You seem to be getting it twisted here.Why would God give Israel,whom he loved so much,laws which now would be deemed useless and of no import to Gentiles?

 

[safswan]

Then Jesus next words were "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." The best meaning of the word fulfill is to bring to an end. He came to bring to an end the law that Israel desecrated.

You are not serious?Jesus said he did not come to destroy but to,"bring to an end the law..". So what is the difference?Doesn't destroying and bringing to an end achieve the same result?You then contradict the meaning you give above when you say:

And since it was an "if" covenant Israelites had to obey the rules of that covenant or the covenant would be broken. That is exactly what happened. Jesus fulfilled the obligation. He did all that Israel failed at doing.

So does fulfill mean bring to an end or that, "He did all that Israel failed at doing?

 

[Bob S]

You are not serious?Jesus said he did not come to destroy but to,"bring to an end the law..". So what is the difference?Doesn't destroying and bringing to an end achieve the same result?You then contradict the meaning you give above when you say:




So does fulfill mean bring to an end or that, "He did all that Israel failed at doing?

Both my friend. Jesus didn't destroy the covenant with its 613 laws, The Israelites broke every part of that covenant. They destroyed the Sinai covenant. What Jesus was able to do is usher in the new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. Jesus ratified the new covenant with His own blood at Calvary, new covenant, new laws, and new Priest. Thank you Jesus.

 

[Bob S]

You seem to be getting it twisted here.Why would God give Israel,whom he loved so much,laws which now would be deemed useless and of no import to Gentiles?

Take Passover for instance. Gentiles were never slaves in Egypt. Why would they have a need to commemorate that event? In Exodus 19:5-6 God is explaining to Moses what He is about to do for the Israelites IF they obey the laws of the covenant. He said: 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.’

God did not make that covenant with Gentiles. They were never subject to those laws. Let me make it clear, Laws dealing with morality are forever. This is true with all the covenants God has made with mankind. The Sinai covenant had ritual, civil and health laws that were for only those who came out of Egypt, lived in the desert and then in the land of Canaan. Those laws didn't pertain to the Gentile nations.

Why would God give Israel a new covenant with better promises if the Sinai covenant had not been broken by the Israelites? You cannot deny that it happened and we are under the laws of the new and better covenant of grace. I know this blows the Messianic movement out of the water, but the fact is that the movement deems much of the Sinai covenant useless for them to keep. You pick and chose what laws of the covenant you think important and cull the remainder. I keep bringing up the seemingly unimportant sideburn law of the Sinai covenant. If you are going to observe the covenant then why do you disobey that rule?. Do any of you have moldy conditions in your homes. You may live on a crawl space and the mold has permeated into the home. God told the Israelites to tear down those moldy homes. Do you obey that law?

 

[Bob S]

You are not serious?Jesus said he did not come to destroy but to,"bring to an end the law..". So what is the difference?Doesn't destroying and bringing to an end achieve the same result?You then contradict the meaning you give above when you say:




So does fulfill mean bring to an end or that, "He did all that Israel failed at doing?

Why do you fight the fact that Jesus brought forth the new covenant making the old one obsolete? Why do you deny all that Paul wrote in 2Cor 3:7-11 telling us that the 10 commandments have been done away? KJ version. And why do you deny that Jesus came and did away with the law with its regulations Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

 

[Jipsah]

You mean people that continue to eat pig, knowing that the Bible has deemed it unclean, and agreed upon by biologists?

Shrimp, too. And catfish. And squirrels, rabbits, and all kinds of seagoing critters. Pass the bacon-wrapped scallops, please.

 

[Jipsah]

Do you mean unclean meat list that is explicitly rejected by God in Acts?

There you go, trying to run the New Testament into the discussion.

 

[Jipsah]

Your physical well being doesn't matter?

What are the health ramifications of eating an unclean shrimp coctail? Or maybe some fried unclean catfish?

 

[Hank77]

Not true.The plants to be eaten were identified in the following passage:
Genesis 1:
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Since Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean it is also reasonable to conclude that he only ate the clean and that these were the every moving thing given to him.

Tell me what plants including grasses and trees that don't bear seeds in order to reproduce their own kind. I can't think of one.
Wheat and barley are grasses and the seeds are the fruit of those plants which was/is eaten.

 

[Jipsah]

Tell me what plants including grasses and trees that don't bear seeds in order to reproduce their own kind. I can't think of one.
Wheat and barley are grasses and the seeds are the fruit of those plants which was/is eaten.

Mushrooms

 

[Hank77]

Mushrooms

Oh mushrooms, I hadn't thought of those, good thinking. Mushrooms are the fruit of fungi and propagated by spores rather than seeds.
We had puffball mushroom steaks with dinner last night.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, can science work its magic and clean up this unclean animal or does it remain unclean, because the Bible says so?

The Bible does not change. Science is opposed to the Bible, mostly.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

<Staff edit>
I think we’d all be living in a much different country if Christians weren’t allowed to eat pork.

Scripturally, whenever people obeyed God, instead of disobeying, they were blessed, instead of cursed, including not being cursed with diseases that God says He puts on all the people around who are pagan or disobey Him.
Can you imagine just a few thousand people, let alone millions, living together in perfect peace and harmony , without illness, without stealing, without murder , without idolatry ! ? Can't see this in the u.s......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh mushrooms, I hadn't thought of those, good thinking. Mushrooms are the fruit of fungi and propagated by spores rather than seeds.
We had puffball mushroom steaks with dinner last night.

excerpt found online, not fully vetted:
Kashrus of Mushrooms

November 7th, 2013 271

Dear Rabbi,
I’m not questioning IF mushrooms are kosher.
I was wonder what is the source for permission for eating mushrooms.
Given that specific permissions are given for plants, fish, poultry and animals, I would expect that specific permission would be given for mushrooms, which does seem to be classified within any of them – biology nor bracha.

Thank you in advance.
Respectfully,

Moshe Stern

Answer:

The general rule in Judaism is that if something is not prohibited, it is permitted — or in other words, everything is permitted unless it is explicitly prohibited (this principle emerges explicitly from Tosafos, Sukkah 25a, s.v. sheharei).

Based on this general rule, there is no need for special permission to eat mushrooms. Since there is no prohibition against them, it goes without saying that it is permitted to eat them.

Even when Adam was given “permission” to eat from the fruit of the trees, it is possible that this permission was only given in order to state the other side of the coin – the prohibition against eating from the Tree of Knowledge. If there would not have been a related prohibition, it seems that there would be no need for the permission.

Because there is no specie of mushroom that is forbidden (except for poisonous ones!), there is no need for the Torah to state their permission.

Best wishes.

 

[Jipsah]

sawed off

 

[Jipsah]

Baloney. The Bible isn't a scientific tome, and Science cannot address the supernatural. Entirely different realms

 

[Tone]

Shrimp, too. And catfish. And squirrels, rabbits, and all kinds of seagoing critters. Pass the bacon-wrapped scallops, please.

Here's a good one for you:

Shalom.

 

[Bob S]

excerpt found online, not fully vetted:
Kashrus of Mushrooms

November 7th, 2013 271

Dear Rabbi,
I’m not questioning IF mushrooms are kosher.
I was wonder what is the source for permission for eating mushrooms.
Given that specific permissions are given for plants, fish, poultry and animals, I would expect that specific permission would be given for mushrooms, which does seem to be classified within any of them – biology nor bracha.

Thank you in advance.
Respectfully,

Moshe Stern

Answer:

The general rule in Judaism is that if something is not prohibited, it is permitted — or in other words, everything is permitted unless it is explicitly prohibited (this principle emerges explicitly from Tosafos, Sukkah 25a, s.v. sheharei).

Based on this general rule, there is no need for special permission to eat mushrooms. Since there is no prohibition against them, it goes without saying that it is permitted to eat them.

Even when Adam was given “permission” to eat from the fruit of the trees, it is possible that this permission was only given in order to state the other side of the coin – the prohibition against eating from the Tree of Knowledge. If there would not have been a related prohibition, it seems that there would be no need for the permission.

Because there is no specie of mushroom that is forbidden (except for poisonous ones!), there is no need for the Torah to state their permission.

Best wishes.

Even though they are grown in horse manure?