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Can "salvation", be "forfeit"?

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MarkEvan

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Quite right God is able to keep people from stumbling, but the word is 'able,' not He will 'make' you, if we choose to not submit to His guidance (which we can all do) then we cease to come to Him who is able (draw near to God and He will draw near to you, James I think but I will look it up later for you)....and therefore walk in our own strength which will fail. Remember what Jude says later on, that we are to have mercy on those who are wavering by snatching them out of the fire, who are those who are wavering but those who are not coming to He who is able.



Mark





 
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drstevej

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Eternal Life = Conditional Life ???


No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will (not just might if he behaves) raise him up at the last day. JN 6:44
 
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savedbygrace57

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This is false teaching taking from Gods abiltiy and refocusing on man, this is a man centered post..
 
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moonbeam

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The one I may be inclined to wonder about is the one who displays such conceit in a set of nonessential theological concepts. It`s like "Lord let me in, I`m a Calvinist." But then again, who am I to judge?
The Lord did let me in...thats why i'm a calvinist.

Why arn't you?
 
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sawdust

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Which death?

The scripture speaks of many deaths. Physical death, spiritual death, second death, death as the wages of sin etc.

To simply say "death", does not instruct one fully.

A believer has died in Christ. The consequence of continued sin in a believers life is death in Christ.

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Rom.6:3

Positional truth. All believers are baptised in this death and this death has an ending to it. "It is finished" (Jn19:30) Now, ultimately for all believers, it will not end until the resurrection of our own bodies but because Christ has already been resurrected we can begin to live (in the resurrection life of Christ) before the complete and final end. This we do in the filling of the Spirit, through faith in the Word. For those believers who continue in sin, they are effectively living in Christ's death instead of His life. It is why they give the appearance of being "unsaved".

peace
 
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frumanchu

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You can't have your cake and eat it to. You can't say He is able...so long as we let Him. Either He is able or He isn't.

The text plainly says He is able. Able to what? Able to keep you from stumbling.

You're basically saying He's able to keep us from stumbling...as long as we don't stumble.

Sorry, Mark...but it means what it says. He is able to keep us from stumbling.
 
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MarkEvan

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Eternal Life = Conditional Life ???


No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will (not just might if he behaves) raise him up at the last day. JN 6:44



'Those who persevere to the end shall be saved' and 'I when I am lifted up will draw all men unto myself.'


Mark
 
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MarkEvan

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Hi Sawdust,





What do you mean by 'death in Christ?'



As to which death is James refering to? Well as I said I don`t believe he is there talking of physical death as the passage seems to be excluding this 'death' for those who are faithful. Nor do I believe it to be the second death for in that sense the wages of sin (one sin where as this passage again indicates more than one sin has taken place before death arrives) is death in the lake of fire. That leaves in my opinion Spiritual death as the only possible answer....though I would be open if you can give a good reason for it being one of the others. At the moment however the question remains that one cannot die Spiritually unless one was alive Spiritually first.





Yet Romans 8 says that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His son, are those who continue in sin, those who are 'living Christs death instead of His life,' really being transformed? Remember what james says 'friendship with the world is enmity with God,' if we live a lifestyle of sin are we not in friendship with the world?


Mark
 
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MarkEvan

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If as you say everything is down to God......then why do we sin?


Mark
 
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frumanchu

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If as you say everything is down to God......then why do we sin?
Mark

As to the proximate cause it is our sin nature and the fact that God allows and ordains it according to His good will and purpose. As to the root cause in Eden it is a mystery not revealed in Scripture.
 
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MarkEvan

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As to the proximate cause it is our sin nature and the fact that God allows and ordains it according to His good will and purpose. As to the root cause in Eden it is a mystery not revealed in Scripture.


So God allows man to sin.....no ordains it Himself? How is this inline with God who is able to keep us from stumbling...from Jesus who says 'go away and sin no more,' from Paul who says 'do you not know brothers that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be decieved?' Are you really saying that God causes us to sin? Dont forget that God tempts no one!


Mark
 
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savedbygrace57

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If God did not want you to sin, dont you think He could have made you that way ? He made angels that way..The elect angels
 
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sawdust

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This is my understanding of James 1:15 which I find more consistent with the rest of scripture than what you are suggesting.

Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death.

What death is James referring to? If he is talking generally and applying it to anyone at any time, he is effectively repeating what God said in the beginning. "Sin and you die" (Gen.2:17)

We know that Adam did not die (completely) on that day he ate. He remained physically alive, he was not completely abandoned for the Lord walked into the garden next day to speak with him. We understand Adam died spiritually. But according to the word of God, Adam should have been totally abandoned by God, physically, spiritually and his soul, (the complete man) forsaken by God. The Father could "suspend" the complete consequences of Adam's sin without compromising His integrity (holiness) because of the Christ to come, planned before the foundation of the world. When Christ came he did die "in the day" just as Adam should have. For three hours on the Cross while He was paying for the full consequences of our sin he was forsaken by God. This is something no man will ever experience. Please take special note of this and keep it in mind. No man will ever experience what it is like to be fully forsaken by God (die) because of his sin. The death Christ died on the Cross is the death Adam should have died in the garden but didn't.

If James is referring to believers in the verse above (and I believe he is) then the whatever death he speaks of is "covered" in the death of Christ, spiritual, physical and of the soul. However we know believers die physically, we see it everyday. In practical terms the warning James is giving us (believers) has application in regards to physical death. This corresponds to Paul's statement in Corinthians.

That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 1Cor.11:30

Their sin has brought God's judgment upon them and they have died physically yet they are in Christ and because He has died, these people will live.

It also corresponds with John.

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 1Jn.5:16

Any believer who willfully continues to practice their sin without regard for their salvation will not mock the Lord. He will take them out of this life (physical death) so that His name is not blasphemed. Now sometimes He does it quickly and they die young and sometimes he does it slowly and they hang around for awhile. Invariably, those brothers become a test for us who are growing up in the Lord.

Now if James is referring to spiritual death as you are suggesting, the practical implication is completely unmanageable. It would mean every time any of us sins, we would die spiritually. If we are not spiritually alive the word of God becomes as foolishness to us. We would need to have the Gospel presented over and over again. Only those spiritually alive can be taught of God. Only those who are spiritually alive have the capacity to understand the word of God. Most of us commit sins which we are completely unaware of. The word of God would have to say ...

"Unless a man be born again and again and again and again and" .... on it would go for every sin we would commit.

The reason we don't die spiritually every time we commit a sin is because we are in Christ. He died that death on our behalf once and for all.

So why is it, if Christ died for us spiritually and physically, we don't die spiritually when we sin yet die physically whether we sin or not? It is because the sin nature resides in the flesh and until we get our resurrection bodies the sin nature remains in the members of our body.

For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Rom.7:22 - 25

That law, working in our bodies, keep us as slaves to sin. That law never stops operating, not until we die or the resurrection, which ever comes first. Whether we live under it's law or whether we live under the law of the Spirit is an ongoing choice but it is a choice only made possible if we believe in Christ. For only in Christ does the option to live the new life (governed by the law of the Spirit) exist.


Believe it or not? Yes, they are being transformed but they are not being transformed in their soul (thinking). In terms of a man's spirit, transformation is not applicable. One is either dead or alive. No transformation takes place. You can't be "partly" spiritual. (that would make you a spiritual zombie. there is no such thing ) The other transformation left is physical, but as I said before, that is in the resurrection. That won't occur until God says "time's up" (so to speak). We all still wait for that time.

This is why we don't "see" their transformation. This is why we are inclined to think they are not saved. But the Lord can see the beginning from the end.

So what happens to a believer who refuses to be transformed in his soul while on this earth when the resurrection comes and he stands before Christ?

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1Cor.3:12-15

What does he lose? The majority of his spiritual blessings that have been placed in Christ. (Eph.1:3) He still gets his spiritual body and his place in God's Kingdom and the obvious benefits that would come from that. But the difference bewteen his life in eternity and someone who has grown and matured, is like the difference between a peasant in an earthly knigdom and the life of a royal advisor and confidante to the King.

Our work is our faith. Our faith is the word of God made alive in our soul, made alive by our willingness to trust in it's truth. Whatever is not of faith (truth) is burnt up and destroyed but if one believes that Jesus is the Saviour, even if they know no more than this, they have at least one truth in their soul and therefore are saved. No-one believes on Christ if they think he can't or won't save them. I doubt any one of us understood in full what we were being saved from when we believed in Christ. We knew our lives were wrong. Whether we understood why or how they were wrong is inconsequential. We believed and therefore are saved.

peace
 
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savedbygrace57

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James was describing the flesh of all human beings, the scenario in gen 3 is what james described temptation entices inward lust , as it did with eve..So this proves that adam was created with a sinful nature or else where did the inner lust come from in eve to be attracted to satans temptation ?
 
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