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Then it is that your religion is a fatalistic religion. One can never know he is saved.
You're making a joke right? Playing a devil's advocate role or something?
Either that or I just walked into a horror movie.
Its about time somebody caught on.One of the problems we have is that we generally have a very low view of salvation. Its merely about us getting to heaven. That's not a very full understanding of what salvation is...
What He will do often is make him willing to be willing.
I would say we agree with this statement. The question you have to ask yourself is what happens when he doesn't do this? What happens when he doesn't "make someone willing to be willing."
Why do I have to ask myself that question? It doesn't concern me and is irrevelant. If a person isn't willing, he isn't willing. God tried to affect Pharaoh's will. He gave up. In fact, God knew beforehand that Pharaoh would never yeild. Thats why he hardened his heart and used him in His "unalterable plan". Had it all set up before Pharaoh was born.
Read my lips: God places man's will over His sovereignty.
Throughout the Bible God's words are peppered in that state: "If man will".
Its not arguable.
You Calvinists can't see the rees for the forest.
You all confuse God's unalterable plan for man in Himself and His alterable sovereignty that says "if man will, then I will". "If he will open the door I will come in and sup with him and he with Me.". . . . God never beats down the door of a man's heart. What He will do often is make him willing to be willing.
Because apart from God, there is no other place.Squint said:Why is it that you view that statement as meaning eternal torture in fire? (or insert any other favorite alternative form of similar)
Your view of "sinful men having their SINS cast into Hell, but they'll waltz into Heaven", is beyond the scope of this thread. Would it be all right if we started a new thread?We "escape" from the darkness...and we can be again TAKEN by that darkness IN THIS LIFE if we turn away from HIS LIGHT/LIFE.
This still by no means makes God the eternal torturer of those slaves if that transpires...even though they may very well end up much worse for the wear in this present world.
There are many who accept the idea of "backslidden-SAVED". Obviously I don't. If we are not "under the Spirit's control", then we are goats, and not sheep.Sawdust said:No I didn't stop too soon. It is just that you continue to see those verses from the viewpoint of being able to lose your salvation.
If you understood what I was saying you would understand those verses in a different light.
In verse 9 the "and live" is literally "shall be living". It is talking about living the spiritual life.
In other words it is better to be under the control of the Spirit (filled with the Spirit) so we might live our spiritual life than be under the control of the flesh and not fulfill God's plan and hence have to get our backsides whacked by God.
"SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of) Father of spirits, and live?" Is there any way that "live", doesn't mean "eternally"?In verse 25 you should have tried underlining this part.
"See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking; for if those did not escape who refused an earthly warner, much less shall WE escape who turn away from God.
Do you know what it is you won't escape? Read verses 7 - 12 in context. The writer is not talking about the lake of fire he is talking about discipline. We won't escape discipline Ben.
How can one be "Christian", and refuse God's word?There are two types of hardship we endure for discipline. The first type is where we have the resources and the grace to endure. This type of suffering is for the Christian who is moving along the right path and it is designed to strengthen and purify the faith they have. The second type is for the Christian who is refusing to listen to the Word and it is not bearable. The reason it is not bearable is because:
But "humbling", is a choice; James and Peter both say so...1. the person is not utilising the word they already know (faith) and
2. because the Lord does not give them the grace to endure the hardship.
It is specifically designed not to be bearable because God wants to bring that person to their knees (humble him).
Most people refuse to humble themselves before God. That's why there are so few believers...But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Jm.4:6[/quote}RIGHT --- but if one does NOT choose humbleness, but chooses SIN, God has no grace for that...
...such a person is a "goat", not a "sheep"...
[quote[It is better to humble onself because that is done in the privacy of one's own soul. It is a matter between God and the believer. But if God has to force humility on a believer then it will not be private. Others will see their shame.
Publicly, the world accepts (and encourages) such refusal. If a "believer" refuses to listen to God, and continues to refuse, he/she isn't a believer.For the believer who refuses to listen to God it becomes a double whammy. Not only do they not enjoy the blessings the Lord has placed in Christ their humiliation becomes a public affair.
I pray that you're right about most Calvinists.Behe said:I think Calvinists wouldn't adhere to the statement "Backslidden, but still saved" - particularly if "walking in sin" refers to continual willfull unrepentent sinning. We would say that such a person was never saved to begin with.
God places man's will over His sovereignty. See it from that perspective and the bible will read differently and more easily.
Funny, isn't it.You're making a joke right? Playing a devil's advocate role or something?
Either that or I just walked into a horror movie.
I would say we agree with this statement. The question you have to ask yourself is what happens when he doesn't do this? What happens when he doesn't "make someone willing to be willing."
Why do I have to ask myself that question? It doesn't concern me and is irrevelant.
Really? Then how is it you said "God can make someone willing to be willing"?If a person isn't willing, he isn't willing.
So then it does not depend on God who has mercy but on the man who wills or the man who runs.God tried to affect Pharaoh's will. He gave up. In fact, God knew beforehand that Pharaoh would never yeild. Thats why he hardened his heart and used him in His "unalterable plan". Had it all set up before Pharaoh was born.
God places man's will over His sovereignty. See it from that perspective and the bible will read differently and more easily.
What's so funny?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
God places man's will over His sovereignty. See it from that perspective and the bible will read differently and more easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawdust
You're making a joke right? Playing a devil's advocate role or something?
Either that or I just walked into a horror movie.
Funny, isn't it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behe's Boy
I would say we agree with this statement. The question you have to ask yourself is what happens when he doesn't do this? What happens when he doesn't "make someone willing to be willing."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Why do I have to ask myself that question? It doesn't concern me and is irrelevant.
A refusal to consider what you just said. You just said God forces someone's will to will differently. To make someone -- to compel someone to will differently is directing their wills against their wills.
Have you become what you oppose?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
If a person isn't willing, he isn't willing.
Really? Then how is it you said "God can make someone willing to be willing"?
So then it does not depend on God who has mercy but on the man who wills or the man who runs.
I simply cannot approach the Bible with a preconception that so clearly contradicts Scripture itself. I'm not interested in reading it "differently and more easily." I'm interested in understanding it. You would do well to pursue that too and shed these vain preconceptions that cause you to twist Scripture into a deformed idol of your own making.
Then don't approach it then. Perhaps you can show where I violated your sensibilities.
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