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it's only ONE chapter!? You made it sound like it was so easy and simple to understand!
Salvation cannot be lost. It can be forfeited, through disobedience/unbelief...
Then one of us will have to consider they have forfeited their salvation for one of us is rejecting Christ. He is the Word. To reject the truth of His word is to reject Him.
Where there is no Word there can be no faith.
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom.10:17
The word must come first before man can apply his volition to believe or disbelieve. If it were not for the grace of God first, there would be no faith at all.
peace
That's correct --- on that we have no disagreement.Sawdust said:Then one of us will have to consider they have forfeited their salvation for one of us is rejecting Christ. He is the Word. To reject the truth of His word is to reject Him.
If all is "sovereignly decreed" by God, then how could Paul say "How can they believe ...without a preacher"?Where there is no Word there can be no faith.
Exactly. Faith comes from hearing. It also comes from seeing --- remember Thomas? "You believe BECAUSE you see"?Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom.10:17
Is there anything in Scripture that even hints at the concept of "God's grace does not sincerely come to any one person"?The word must come first before man can apply his volition to believe or disbelieve. If it were not for the grace of God first, there would be no faith at all.
In Jn6:40 Jesus said, "Those who SEE Jesus and believe, may be saved".
So when Jesus tells Thomas that "unseen faith is better than seen faith" (Jn20:29), how can that possibly accommodate "sovereign-decreed-faith"?
That's correct --- on that we have no disagreement.
If all is "sovereignly decreed" by God, then how could Paul say "How can they believe ...without a preacher"?
Exactly. Faith comes from hearing. It also comes from seeing --- remember Thomas? "You believe BECAUSE you see"?
In Jn6:40 Jesus said, "Those who SEE Jesus and believe, may be saved".
So when Jesus tells Thomas that "unseen faith is better than seen faith" (Jn20:29), how can that possibly accommodate "sovereign-decreed-faith"?
Is there anything in Scripture that even hints at the concept of "God's grace does not sincerely come to any one person"?
You TOTALLY misunderstand faith!What genez said.
peace
Then 'splain it to me.You TOTALLY misunderstand faith!
What genez said.
Then 'splain it to me.
Is faith something God DOES (to us)? Or does God receive men who come to Him BY faith?
Is faith something God DOES (to us)?
Its something God gives the elect..Its how we know that we are saved..
Its Good to know when one is saved, thats what faith does..It comes from the righteousness of God and the Saviour Lord Jesus christ..
2 pet 1:
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Then 'splain it to me.
Is faith something God DOES (to us)? Or does God receive men who come to Him BY faith?
So --- when Peter said, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls" --- it's REALLY saying "receive as the outcome of God's-faith-He-INSTILLED-in-you"?Beloved said:Its something God gives the elect..Its how we know that we are saved..
Its Good to know when one is saved, thats what faith does..It comes from the righteousness of God and the Saviour Lord Jesus christ..
2 pet 1:
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Wow --- Gene and I agree on something.Genez said:God gives us grace... Which is the enabling Divine power by means of the Holy Spirit which prevents our depravity of our flesh from dominating over our souls, so the soul can be made free to believe His Word of salvation. If grace were never given? No one could believe. For the flesh would keep enslaving the soul against the Word of God.
God gives grace. Yet, God offers faith when he gives grace. The faith we choose to believe when freed by grace? Becomes our own.
Titus 2:11(New International Version)
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
Many are given grace that leads to salvation. Many are also offered faith. But... many are called, but few are chosen.
Not just "many", but "all". All are commanded to repent (Acts17:30), all are desired to be saved (1Tim2:1-4, Ezk18:32), justification came to the exact same number to whom came condemnation (Rom5:17-18).Many who reject God were given the grace needed to be enabled to believe.
Nicely stated. But --- if you accept that "unfallen satan" freely chose to reject God, why is it a stretch to consider that a man, after having BEEN saved, can still reject God?"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
But? Only few will believe.
God's grace kept their sin nature from influencing their soul's choice when presented the Gospel And, as a result of this grace being given? Their soul was made free to believe. At that point? When they reject God? They become just like satan when he rejected God. For satan rejected God while he was yet unfallen. Grace is given to all men so they can make their choices concerning God.
This is the only way God could be "just"; each person has a real invitation to eternity.Because God's grace powerfully sets aside momentarily the oppression of the sin nature over a man's soul when God's truth is offered to be decided upon? And, the faith is rejected?
The sin nature was not the cause of its rejection. For grace kept the sin nature momentarily at bay. The rejection of faith therefore, is not sin. Its evil. Evil is not the same thing as sin. Satan had evil when he fell. But, just before he fell he was without a fallen nature. We are born sinners. So, God gives grace to make us able to choose from a point that is fair and just.
True; but "sins", expose a heart that is NOT joined to Christ. That's why Scripture says "they will receive the consequence of their deeds." Rev20:13, Rom2:6-8.If rejecting salvation were simply sin? All would be saved. For? Jesus died for all the sins of the world.
What we often times are not told.. Jesus could not die for evil. He could only die for sin. Those who reject faith are evil, not simply sinners.
Evil sends people to Hell. Not their sins. Jesus paid for the sins of those sent to hell. Sin is not why they go there.
That is true; but "unless they repent, they will die in their sins." Jesus' blood washes away sins; but he who REJECTS Jesus' blood, remains unwashed.1 John 2:2 (New International Version)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
As you can see? Jesus paid for the sins of the world.
He was judged for all sin. Not just for those who believe.
And a "good tree produces good fruit" (deeds), and an evil tree produces evil deeds....Therefore? No one will be judged on the basis of their sins. For, sin was already judged on the cross.
They will be judged on the basis of their evil!
Precisely! We NEVER have power to overcome sins; "what man could not do, weak as the flesh is, God DID -- sending His Son in the likeness of sinful men..." Rom8Our sins comes from the fallen sin nature residing in the flesh. The fallen nature we inherit from Adam. The soul in itself is not fallen, but is enslaved by the flesh. Yet, having no power over the flesh? All souls sin. Grace breaks that cycle when we walk in grace.
The same volition by which men COME to Christ, still persists until we die; we are free to choose Him, and we can be deceived to reject Him.When God is reaching out, God's grace isolates the soul (for moments in time) so that soul, being isolated from the oppression of the sin nature... is now 'enabled'- made free - to make a choice for, or against, faith.
When under the influence of grace? If that soul rejects faith? That is now a soul making a free choice to reject truth. That choice is residing outside of the sin nature's oppression over the soul. Its therefore not caused by sin. It was a choice freely made. That is called evil.
See the difference?
Good analogy. Now --- doesn't "swallowing", reflect "receiving"? It's voluntary.Sawdust said:It's like eating.
You are sitting at a table spread with food. The food is the Word. You choose to swallow the food but, once that food is in your stomach, it is no longer your will that is working to metabolise that food turning it into the energy your body requires to sustain it.
I would says "faith is TAKING the food and HIDING it inside".In the same way, faith is the result of God's truth (His word is truth) working away (metabolizing truth) in your soul. Grace is the power that makes the metaboliazation process possible.
And vice-versa.You can believe what you will but if it is not truth, you do not have faith. The measure of one's faith is in direct proportion to the amount of truth in their soul.
And in that, you support what I've just said. Your analogy is excellent.So, in a sense, it is something God does to us but not in the way you mean it. He doesn't just wave a magic wand over us and "hey presto" we have faith. Nor does He hand out faith like candy. We must make a choice to swallow (believe) or refuse to eat (disbelieve).
No, they can "eat", or "not-eat"; and they can later vomit back up what they've eaten.The reason He receives men who come to Him in faith is because He is effectively receiving back His own word.
Good analogy. Now --- doesn't "swallowing", reflect "receiving"? It's voluntary.
And if one's inclined, can't the food be vomited back up?
I would says "faith is TAKING the food and HIDING it inside".
You are good...
And vice-versa.
And in that, you support what I've just said. Your analogy is excellent.
No, they can "eat", or "not-eat"; and they can later vomit back up what they've eaten.
Sawdust, I look forward to your replies; this post, Gene's post, and my post #633 (preceding).
Wow --- Gene and I agree on something.
Now, all have been drawn by the father. Not all called.Not just "many", but "all". All are commanded to repent (Acts17:30), all are desired to be saved (1Tim2:1-4, Ezk18:32), justification came to the exact same number to whom came condemnation (Rom5:17-18).
Nicely stated. But --- if you accept that "unfallen satan" freely chose to reject God, why is it a stretch to consider that a man, after having BEEN saved, can still reject God?
So --- when Peter said, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls" --- it's REALLY saying "receive as the outcome of God's-faith-He-INSTILLED-in-you"?
1Pet1:9
Where was this answered???See, someone show you scriptures like you always asking for, though you dont mean it, then you ignore it..lol..
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