Can Revenge Ever Have a Justifiable Purpose?

[newton3005]

Romans 12:19 says, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” But what is meant by “vengeance”? Is there a line between vengeance and self-defense, say?

What is vengeance? The Cambridge dictionary defines it as “the punishing of someone for harming you or your friends or family, or the wish for such punishment to happen...”

Cen vengeance ever be regarded as a sin? It can be, to the extent that acts of evil are sins. In the Bible, God designates what is good and what is evil from out standpoint. There is no in-between. In some cases, which may seem grayish, it is necessary to dig down to the smallest granule to determine if something is good or evil.

Consider 1 Thessalonians 5:15 which says, “See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always use to do good to one another and to everyone.” Well, seems that at first glance, Romans 12:19 puts it into God’s hands to commit evil for evil, but that’s impossible when you consider that anything God does is for good. Looking at Romans 12:19 a certain way, sems that the same act that a person does which may be considered evil would be considered good if God does it, since nothing God does is evil. God killed everyone in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for the evil acts that were done in those cities. There is no word in the Bible that God spared the lives of the young, so we might presume that the young, presumed innocent, were not spared the fate that the adults underwent. It may be said that the killing of people in those two cities was God’s form of capital punishment for the evil they did.

Some may ask if vengeance is the Lord’s, then who is the governing authority to exact vengeance via capital punishment? Well, consider Romans 13:1-4 which says, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For HE IS THE SERVANT OF GOD, AN AVENGER who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”

So, a governing authority that exists as an extension of the Lord, has been given the power to act as God would act. And if it’s determined that God would avenge the death of someone via capital punishment, then the governing authority who acts on behalf of God could be expected to do likewise.

Same as in matters of war. Take the recent instance of Hamas going into Israel and killing over a thousand innocent people. The Israeli government, who may be seen as a governing authority on behalf of God since under God, governments are set up to act on His behalf, decided that the best course of action is to kill those who are members of Hamas. One can infer that the Israeli government was doing its work, exacting vengeance on Hamas in God’s name. Similarly, in any acts of war in which a nation is attacked, it is a moot point as to whether a nation that was attacked is committing evil by returning the attack. That’s because as anything that God does is considered good, including that which may be evil in the hands of an individual, is also considered good if the act is done by a government that rules in God’s name. In that respect, what may be considered as pure vengeance in the hands of an individual would be a act of justice in the hands of a government under God.

Consider Russia’s initial attack on Ukraine. Would anyone criticize the Ukrainian government for fighting back, and killing Russians in the process? One may say that like the Israeli government, the Ukrainian government had the authority of God in attacking the Russians in return for their being attacked. Even if one might consider it an act of vengeance, when the government is involved it is off the table as to whether such vengeance is evil; as anything that God does is good, so anything that is done by a government on God’s behalf is good as well.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Romans 12:19 says, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” But what is meant by “vengeance”? Is there a line between vengeance and self-defense, say?

What is vengeance? The Cambridge dictionary defines it as “the punishing of someone for harming you or your friends or family, or the wish for such punishment to happen...”

Cen vengeance ever be regarded as a sin? It can be, to the extent that acts of evil are sins. In the Bible, God designates what is good and what is evil from out standpoint. There is no in-between. In some cases, which may seem grayish, it is necessary to dig down to the smallest granule to determine if something is good or evil.

Consider 1 Thessalonians 5:15 which says, “See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always use to do good to one another and to everyone.” Well, seems that at first glance, Romans 12:19 puts it into God’s hands to commit evil for evil, but that’s impossible when you consider that anything God does is for good. Looking at Romans 12:19 a certain way, sems that the same act that a person does which may be considered evil would be considered good if God does it, since nothing God does is evil. God killed everyone in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for the evil acts that were done in those cities. There is no word in the Bible that God spared the lives of the young, so we might presume that the young, presumed innocent, were not spared the fate that the adults underwent. It may be said that the killing of people in those two cities was God’s form of capital punishment for the evil they did.

Some may ask if vengeance is the Lord’s, then who is the governing authority to exact vengeance via capital punishment? Well, consider Romans 13:1-4 which says, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For HE IS THE SERVANT OF GOD, AN AVENGER who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”

So, a governing authority that exists as an extension of the Lord, has been given the power to act as God would act. And if it’s determined that God would avenge the death of someone via capital punishment, then the governing authority who acts on behalf of God could be expected to do likewise.

Same as in matters of war. Take the recent instance of Hamas going into Israel and killing over a thousand innocent people. The Israeli government, who may be seen as a governing authority on behalf of God since under God, governments are set up to act on His behalf, decided that the best course of action is to kill those who are members of Hamas. One can infer that the Israeli government was doing its work, exacting vengeance on Hamas in God’s name. Similarly, in any acts of war in which a nation is attacked, it is a moot point as to whether a nation that was attacked is committing evil by returning the attack. That’s because as anything that God does is considered good, including that which may be evil in the hands of an individual, is also considered good if the act is done by a government that rules in God’s name. In that respect, what may be considered as pure vengeance in the hands of an individual would be a act of justice in the hands of a government under God.

Consider Russia’s initial attack on Ukraine. Would anyone criticize the Ukrainian government for fighting back, and killing Russians in the process? One may say that like the Israeli government, the Ukrainian government had the authority of God in attacking the Russians in return for their being attacked. Even if one might consider it an act of vengeance, when the government is involved it is off the table as to whether such vengeance is evil; as anything that God does is good, so anything that is done by a government on God’s behalf is good as well.

I am afraid you have been terribly misguided. There is vengeance and then there is justice. Not once did you mention true justice, God's way of judgment. No where does vengeance come into play in all the pages of Scripture when God is involved. We only see justice. Please consider researching further the difference between the two before suggesting our Father is vengeful. Be blessed.

 

[zippy2006]

No where does vengeance come into play in all the pages of Scripture when God is involved.

Did you read the first sentence of the OP?

 

[65James]

Will if your government does not protect it citizens, I find they are worse than an infidel: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. I Timothy 5:8
Kinda makes me wonder about our open borders. But Romans 13:1-7; I Peter 2:13-17 states we are to honor our governments.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Did you read the first sentence of the OP?

Again, completely misunderstood. Vengeance is God’s however, if one knows Him, we know He does not use it. He uses justice instead. The moral of the story is NOT to be vengeful and if there is a case to use it , it will only be God that owns that privilege. It can not be transferred into the hands of men. Again, His will is not vengeance it is justice.

 

[timothyu]

What is vengeance but acting in the same way as the perpetrator of the original event. The self serving ways of man can never resolve the self serving ways of man.

 

[Peacemaker1]

we can believe in Jesus Christ, or babble like fools until our tongues and souls are taken away.

we are made to be harmless, if we believe in the one who was harmless.



Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 

[eleos1954]

Romans 12:19 says, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” But what is meant by “vengeance”? Is there a line between vengeance and self-defense, say?

What is vengeance? The Cambridge dictionary defines it as “the punishing of someone for harming you or your friends or family, or the wish for such punishment to happen...”

Cen vengeance ever be regarded as a sin? It can be, to the extent that acts of evil are sins. In the Bible, God designates what is good and what is evil from out standpoint. There is no in-between. In some cases, which may seem grayish, it is necessary to dig down to the smallest granule to determine if something is good or evil.

Consider 1 Thessalonians 5:15 which says, “See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always use to do good to one another and to everyone.” Well, seems that at first glance, Romans 12:19 puts it into God’s hands to commit evil for evil, but that’s impossible when you consider that anything God does is for good. Looking at Romans 12:19 a certain way, sems that the same act that a person does which may be considered evil would be considered good if God does it, since nothing God does is evil. God killed everyone in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for the evil acts that were done in those cities. There is no word in the Bible that God spared the lives of the young, so we might presume that the young, presumed innocent, were not spared the fate that the adults underwent. It may be said that the killing of people in those two cities was God’s form of capital punishment for the evil they did.

Some may ask if vengeance is the Lord’s, then who is the governing authority to exact vengeance via capital punishment? Well, consider Romans 13:1-4 which says, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For HE IS THE SERVANT OF GOD, AN AVENGER who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”

So, a governing authority that exists as an extension of the Lord, has been given the power to act as God would act. And if it’s determined that God would avenge the death of someone via capital punishment, then the governing authority who acts on behalf of God could be expected to do likewise.

Same as in matters of war. Take the recent instance of Hamas going into Israel and killing over a thousand innocent people. The Israeli government, who may be seen as a governing authority on behalf of God since under God, governments are set up to act on His behalf, decided that the best course of action is to kill those who are members of Hamas. One can infer that the Israeli government was doing its work, exacting vengeance on Hamas in God’s name. Similarly, in any acts of war in which a nation is attacked, it is a moot point as to whether a nation that was attacked is committing evil by returning the attack. That’s because as anything that God does is considered good, including that which may be evil in the hands of an individual, is also considered good if the act is done by a government that rules in God’s name. In that respect, what may be considered as pure vengeance in the hands of an individual would be a act of justice in the hands of a government under God.

Consider Russia’s initial attack on Ukraine. Would anyone criticize the Ukrainian government for fighting back, and killing Russians in the process? One may say that like the Israeli government, the Ukrainian government had the authority of God in attacking the Russians in return for their being attacked. Even if one might consider it an act of vengeance, when the government is involved it is off the table as to whether such vengeance is evil; as anything that God does is good, so anything that is done by a government on God’s behalf is good as well.

There is no one that is good government or otherwise. No such thing as a "good government" by mankind nor do they operate according to the will of God ... even if they "claim" they are doing so on God's behalf.

There is no good earthly government ... only God is good .... period.

 

[newton3005]

... only God is good .... period.

Yes. And neither man nor the government that is set up to be as good as God is. But the Bible acknowledges that not everyone by themselves know how to act with God in mind. Romans 13:1 confirms that a government, made up of the collective minds of people, is necessary to make an attempt to reflect God's Goodness and succeed at it.

 

[Peacemaker1]

only God is good .... period.

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[eleos1954]

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"good"

18 agathós – inherently (intrinsically) good; as to the believer, 18 (agathós) describes what originates from God and is empowered by Him in their life, through faith.

If we have faith, we will have some good works .... but those works don't make us good (as in perfect) ... any good works we may have comes from the power of the Lord working in us ... there are no good works without Him ... any good works come from Him ... not us lest we boast.

We are in the process of being changed (if we are willing ) ... we won't become perfect until the Lord returns (His reward is with Him) ...

We are constantly in the process of being changed (sanctification), the full completion of that will not happen until the Lord returns ...

We are caught up in a spiritual war (between God and satan) earth is the battlefield

We are truly living in a world with both the knowledge of good and evil, and each of us must make daily decisions on whose side we choose (a daily battle)

Christ alone was good enough to earn heaven, and He declares righteous those who trust in Him for salvation (Romans 1:17).

Faith .... believing God will do everything He promised he would do .... and He will, I have no doubt.

We have polluted minds ....

Romans 12
2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

It's a transformation process ... but total transformation will not be fully complete until the Lord returns.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Christ alone was good enough to earn heaven, and He declares righteous those who trust in Him for salvation (Romans 1:17).

Faith .... believing God will do everything He promised he would do .... and He will, I have no doubt.

We have polluted minds ....

Romans 12
2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

It's a transformation process ... but total transformation will not be fully complete until the Lord returns.

Two scriptures you quote and a lot of your own words you insert.

Do the disputers want to make it way too easy or what ?



I am here amongst these peeps teaching how they are very unjust.

They mention being just and trusting in Him.

But wow, they think they can leave out the other side of the coin ?

They wont shut up but they are shut up.

Here is HOW the just live in faith to God: by not being all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who lie about the truth. ( to be righteous/perfect)


Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;




Same method again ? OK dokey.



Yes need to be transformed, that is one half of the old message, but what was said FIRST ? by the mercy of God ( perfect complete whole grace of Christ) they are enabled to present themselves holy, acceptable to God. ( which is the PERFECT WILL OF GOD)

To be presented which way ?



Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:



Romans 12:I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[eleos1954]

Two scriptures you quote and a lot of your own words you insert.

Do the disputers want to make it way too easy or what ?



I am here amongst these peeps teaching how they are very unjust.

They mention being just and trusting in Him.

But wow, they think they can leave out the other side of the coin ?

They wont shut up but they are shut up.

Here is HOW the just live in faith to God: by not being all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who lie about the truth. ( to be righteous/perfect)


Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;




Same method again ? OK dokey.



Yes need to be transformed, that is one half of the old message, but what was said FIRST ? by the mercy of God ( perfect complete whole grace of Christ) they are enabled to present themselves holy, acceptable to God. ( which is the PERFECT WILL OF GOD)

To be presented which way ?



Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:



Romans 12:I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The saved will be pardoned because of what Jesus did not because of anything we do. It's about Him .... not us. Through Him we will be presented as perfect (not that we are)... it's by His faith .... not by ours that one is saved. ALL have fallen short. Yet we are called to repent (overcome sin) and once again that happens through the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer (Christs work through the Holy Spirit) of which helps us overcome sin and this goes on throughout our earthly life

Philippians 1

6And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Who's work? (not ours) When is is finished? When Jesus Returns.

We have faith that Jesus began a work in us and will continue to do so until He returns ... at that time we will be totally transformed into His likeness for eternity.

Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation.

If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16). Receiving faith is a non-work (see Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed). Abraham received the gift of faith and it was counted unto Him as righteousness (the righteousness of Christ).