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Featured Can Pastors tell others what to do if they are not obeying their own instruction?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Can Pastors tell others what to do if they are not obeying their own instruction?
     
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  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. A person cannot tell others what to do if they do not obey their own instruction (thereby showing they do not love God or others). That would be hypocritical. It is written,

    1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
    2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
    3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:1-3).
     
  3. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    I would argue that even if a man advises others to do what is good, and he does evil, his advice is still sound.

    This kind of reminds me of the Donatist controversy of the 300's.

    Donatism - Wikipedia
     
  4. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Yeah, what are you going to do, evil just to spite the pastor?

    Agreed, do right, even if the pastor is a hypocrite.
     
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  5. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    The point of Romans 1:18-3:20 is that all alike are under sin, and condemned. The point of what comes after is that we are saved by grace, through faith when we trust in Him.

    Everyone is a hypocrite. We are all sinners. But we need to repent and walk in the Spirit so he can live in us, rather than our hypocritical flesh.

    And even if the pastor is not in step with the Spirit, we need to still look to Christ, not the pastor.
     
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  6. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Active Member Supporter

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    Or Jesus' teaching to the crowds and the disciples in Matthew 23...

    "The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensomea loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
     
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  7. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    For a start, a pastor is just an ordinary sinner like all the rest of us. He is given a role by the grace of God to teach His Word and to give pastoral care to those whom he is responsible for. The pastor is not Jesus and therefore to expect perfection from him is unfair and pointless.

    In ourselves, none of us are qualified to give instruction to anyone, because we all come short of perfection. Paul knew his own limitations, and when he went to plant the Corinthian church he determined to know nothing among them save Christ and Him crucified.

    Some pastors have the mistaken view that they are holier than the common herd and exhibit arrogance in the way they deal with people. They are not real pastors according to God's Word, but are hypocritical pretenders whom Jesus may reject at the judgment. A good pastor is one who fully knows his limitations and imperfection, and does not hide them; but faithfully teaches the Word in a way that inspires people to come closer to Christ.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I respectfully disagree. The Bible teaches that are strict requirements for certain leadership positions within the body. While advice can be true and can temporarily help a person, if the person being instructed finds out that the person is not following their own instruction, it can have destructive consequences not only for that person, but also within the church.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Are you saying that the Pastor is a sinner in their present tense walk with the Lord or they were a sinner in the previous life before Christ?

    I am assuming you mean in their present walk with the Lord because you said nobody is perfect. Well, I am not talking about faults of character or minor transgressions (like going over the speed limit, or not taking the trash out on time, etc.). I am talking about putting away grievous sins out of one's life (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). No pastor or church leader has any business giving instruction to another if they are not following their own instruction. They would be hypocrites if they did so. A person cannot tell another what to do if they themselves do not obey their own instruction. It doesn't make any sense.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. You are taking Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 out of context. Unless of course you believe that no Christian today seeks after God and they have no understanding as per Romans 3:11. Also, this kind of thinking is a violation of basic morality or the goodness of God, as well. For in order for God to agree with this kind of plan of salvation, the Lord our God would have to agree with sin or idea that we can sin and still be saved. But God is holy, and He cannot agree with our sin. It's not possible. God is good. God is love.
     
  11. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    He is speaking about the degradation of all humankind in sin in Romans 1. And he particularly highlights shocking sins of idolatry, sexual sins etc, but then in chapter 2 also indicates that those who condemn such things in others are no better themselves.

    The whole point of the quotes regarding no understanding, is to show Old Testament evidence that everyone is a sinner, and condemned by law.

    It is because we are condemned by law because we have sinned that we need a righteousness apart from law, which is by faith.

    Once you are in Christ and you are forgiven, and His Spirit lives in you then it is no longer the case that no one seeks after God. But he was talking about the lost condition that necessitated grace in the first place.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Has anyone ever read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 lately? It says that in the last days perilous times will come and men will be lovers of their own selves, unholy, and they have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.

    Jesus rejected the Christian who did good works and who also worked sin or iniquity (See Matthew 7:23). I just do not see how these verses or passages work in the sin and still be saved by having a belief on Jesus type view. Jesus condemned hypocrisy and he did not endorse it with a sin and still be saved type doctrine. Even Paul condemns hypocrisy in Romans 2. Not sure how people can change the Bible to defend hypocrisy as being okay with God.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. You are not forgiven of future sin. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    How can you be forgiven of future sin if you confess of sin? It makes no sense.

    Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
     
  14. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Who said you are forgiven of future sin?

    I said in Romans 1:18-3:20 he is relating why everyone needs the gospel, because all have sinned. And then in 3:21-5 he explains the gospel.

    But then in 6-8 he speaks of life in the Spirit and learning to walk in holiness, involving being baptized into his death, dying to sin, dying to the law to be married to another, etc.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Belief Alone Proponents and or Sin and Still Be Saved Proponents generally believe future sin is forgiven them by having a belief alone on Jesus.

    Do you not believe that a Christian is saved by having a belief alone on Jesus?
    Do you believe that a Christian can die in unconfessed grievous sin (like lying, lusting, and hating, etc.) and still be saved?

    Belief Alone Proponents will tell me that works are the result of having been saved. So doing good works or obeying God is not technically a requirement for salvation. This kind of thinking leads one to think they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is turning God's grace into a license for immorality). This kind of thinking is also against the Bible because are are told to endure to the end, overcome, continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, continue in His goodness, keep ourselves in the love of God, resist temptation, etc. as a part of life.

    Saying that one can be a hypocrite and be saved is pretty crazy - IMO. Jesus condemned hypocrisy; And Paul condemned hypocrisy. They did not say a believer can be a hypocrite and still be saved.

    Side Note:

    As for your interpretation on Romans 2 in what it says: Well, it is plain in what it says. To say it means something else is pretty silly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    They can try; but there's no reason the other person should listen to someone who doesn't practice what they preach.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But people can sometimes be experts at hiding their evil where it is not so obvious. But there are "tells" by the kind of belief that they profess, though.
     
  18. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    That is true.
    But if your Minister speaks to you and says, "you should not be doing ......", or "do you realise that doing/saying ....... is a bad example", and you are aware that he does the very thing he is criticising you for; that is hypocrisy. (Even if the Minister is unaware of his own actions.) So he is rebuking you for one sin, while showing another.
    He may still be correct to offer his rebuke, but his own behaviour should not go unchallenged; a new believer or non Christian who saw it might be led astray, or confirmed in their view that Christians are hypocrites.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My mind is pretty blown so far. Some people here are saying that you can be a hypocrite and still be saved while still being a hypocrite.

    Again, has anyone actually read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 lately?
    What I mean is did anyone here read this passage and believe it plainly?
    While the passage is not dealing specifically with hypocrisy, it talks about those who have a form of godliness and they are unholy. I say this because if one doesn't read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 plainly, they have to explain this passage away to make it say something else if they believe in a "Sin and still be saved" type belief.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    True, and they may genuinely not realise that they do this behaviour themselves.
    But it would be unfair of a Minister to criticise someone for X when his own behaviour is just as bad, or worse.
    If someone can't practice what they preach, and model the way a Christian should live, they can't be surprised if others don't take too much notice.

    A non Christian could be turned away from the faith by someone - not just a Minister - who was critical of others' sin but paid no attention to their own. Jesus told us we should not try to take a splinter out of someone's eye while ignoring the great plank in our own.
    I once had a Minister who told me to watch my words and how I spoke - not because they were bad, but because people might take them the wrong way/misunderstand what I was saying, and as a lay Preacher, that would be very unhelpful/unwise.
    Fair point; but not only was he himself guilty of the same thing, he quite often used a particular four letter word in public. His words to me were fair enough - but he was a lousy example for those words.
     
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