Can Pastors tell others what to do if they are not obeying their own instruction?

[Bible Highlighter]

With regard to obedience, there is no difference in the Body of Christ, just as there was no difference for the captains of David.

However, if you have congregation leaders who are "pot smoking drunkards that watch inappropriate content," then there is a method specified in scripture to discipline them.

The proper response is not disobedience. Disobedience does not create discipline. Disobedience does not solve any problem. Disobedience creates factions in the Body and is a sin in itself.

The proper response is to deal directly with the offense so as to bring the offender to repentance and healing to the Body.

Do you think those who need discipline are saved?
If so, then why couldn't they think to themselves that they can live like that until they are ready to seek forgiveness with the Lord until they are on their deathbeds?
Can God agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Any time I hear a local church declare:

• The King James version of the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God.

I think it's probably a good idea to stay away from them because if they're so ignorant as to think the KJV is the only credible English translation, then chances are they're getting a lot of other things wrong too.

For example, this:

Sanctification is the act of God's grace by which the soul is cleansed from the nature of sin, and made holy in the sight of God. This second work of grace is received instantaneously after we totally commit our life to God, and is evidenced by being filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Inbred sin, or the nature of sin, is removed from our soul and we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live victorious lives without sinning against God.

Sanctification is the lifelong process by which we learn to trust Christ more and follow Him more deeply. A side effect of sanctification is that we sin less. But this is a lifelong process that will not ever actually be completed until Christ returns. All of us, even you, still sin. And this idea of a second work of grace is bankrupt. When we are forgiven, we are sealed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All Believers are equally filled with the Spirit at the moment of Salvation.

Well, I did not come to believe what I did as a result of Christ's Sanctified Holy Church. I have come to discover the truth of "God's grace through faith + Works of Faith = Salvation" long before that. For before I discovered this church, I came to the conclusion of this truth as a part of my studying Scripture on my own to show myself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15). In my opinion, most do not want to see this truth in Scripture because they want to justify works of evil or sin on some level with the thinking they are saved by their belief alone on Jesus (Which is contrary to Jude 1:4). Please take note I am aware of OSAS proponents who do not think they can continue to sin and still be saved. But they are in a very small rare group within the OSAS camp.

As for the KJV: I was aware that some of their churches professed that they are KJV Only. I believe the KJV (circa 1900 Cambridge Edition) is the divinely inspired Word of God for our day, but that does not mean I do not use Modern Translations to help update the 1600's English. But if one does not have a final word of authority that is in our own language, they can make the Bible say whatever they like with a language that they did not truly grow up with during Bible times. But the KJV being God's divine Word is a topic for another thread.

I have not visited this church yet, but I look forward to flying out some day to see them (Lord willing).

Side Note:

Anyways, I made some really great points that refutes your belief in Belief Alone-ism or OSAS, or a Sin (on some level) and Still Be Saved type gospel. Please address the points I made in Scripture when you have time (which was in my previous post to you).

Thank you;
And may the Lord's goodness be upon you.

 

[RDKirk]

Do you think those who need discipline are saved?

God apparently thinks so:

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” -- Hebrews 12

If so, then why couldn't they think to themselves that they can live like that until they are ready to seek forgiveness with the Lord until they are on their deathbeds?

I don't know what that sentence means.

Can God agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved?

That has nothing to do with obedience to church leadership.

Scripture never gives us permission to be disobedient to authority, unless authority is commanding us to commit sin.

And this isn't even different from the military, in which authority is authority until it is replaced by higher authority.

Let's say, for instance, the president is blatantly committing "high crimes and misdemeanors" in financial matters.

The military cannot say, "The president is committing financial crimes, therefore we will not obey his orders."

The military is still obligated to obey his lawful orders until he is convicted by impeachment and removed from office by Congress and the Supreme Court.

This was just as true in the Old Testament. The lawful orders of the king were to be obeyed until God removed him from the throne, even if the king was involved in perfidy in some other area.

 

[com7fy8]

I think most today believe they can sin on some level (i.e. they cannot overcome doing certain grievous sins on occasion (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) over the course of their lives) and yet they are still saved if they were to die in doing one of these sins on occasion because they believe Jesus paid for their future sin.

It is very clear how we are told not to sin.

And God's word is guaranteed to accomplish all He means by His word, right?

Isaiah 55:11

So, I see that God's word in us His children will succeed in keeping us from sinning and going to Hell. So, I do not believe someone can trust in Jesus and then keep sinning enough to go to Hell; or else God's word has not accomplished what He pleases. Also, I do not buy that ones who are children of God can die by surprise, during some sin; since God is in control of what happens to His own children, and on the overall He is succeeding in conforming us to the image of His Son > Romans 8:29 < this is not about how well we get ourselves to be committed in our human free wills, but this is about how God is committed to changing us in spite of ourselves so we become His way . . . like Jesus who can not sin.

So, what really works so we do not sin?

If I am not perfectly like Jesus in my nature, I can sin by letting my attention get away from how God would personally rule me with His own peace in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

If I have a relationship for one moment with a spirit of what is not God's peace, do you consider this to be grievous or to be expected?? Satan's spirit can get me into boredom or loneliness or anger or bitterness or unforgiveness. But why do I not stay there? I give God the credit for getting me back, no thanks to me.

When I fail in this, I am not theorizing that I will go to Heaven, anyway; I need to trust God to change my character so I can not fail to stay submissive to Him in His ruling of His own peace in us. And His correction is guaranteed to make us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness", I understand from Hebrews 12:4-14. This is guaranteed to all His children > Hebrews 12:8. So, I understand this is guaranteed, how God will succeed in us who have trusted in Jesus.

So, if this is what the Bible means, there is no theoretical whatever about what if someone keeps sinning. Plus, His correction does not only stop sinning, but God changes us to become like Jesus and He has us loving any and all people the way Jesus in us has us loving, including how we relate as His family with one another.

And we do have >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

This "has" been done. This is guaranteed. So, I don't think there is the possibility that a child of God can somehow die by surprise and go to Hell because of being in some moment of sin. God is the One who does real correction so this does not happen. So, I understand that trusting in Jesus includes trusting our Heavenly Father to so succeed in us.

So, I don't believe someone who has given oneself to Jesus is then going to stay able to sin and go to Hell. This would mean the person has not been perfected in God's love which makes us like Jesus "in this world".

Plus, if someone can sin to Hell, this would mean the person has kept one's human free will so the person can do that, when Jesus says to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily and follow Him > if I deny my self, doesn't this include denying my own human free will with my human ability to make choices? How can I keep that old human stuff and become a truly new creation in Jesus > 2 Corinthians 5:17?

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

If God has taken over in our wills, He is now in control. And if He is committed to finishing the job > Philippians 1:6 > He can make sure we don't give ourselves to Satan and die while sinning. And He is in control of if and when each of His children dies. And we have trusted Him to truly change us so we stay His way for all eternity.

He would have to choose to let go of me enough so I would give in to Satan. And if I could, this would mean He has not changed me into the image of Jesus.

But, in any case, what really works to keep us from sinning, if you wish to get into this?

 

[Foxfyre]

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW be there that find it.
So I must take this to mean that not all pastors are in the narrow few (Whereby they have the true authority from God to be obeyed). Yes, good advice is one thing, but being obligated to build a Pastor's ministry (i.e. submitting to him) whereby you do not agree with how that Pastor is living, or you do not agree with his teachings is nonsensical. We have to agree that they truly are an authority from God in order to submit to them in building their ministry.

Let's say for example the Pastor believes in nudity fellowship. I have a right to say... "No, that is not in the Bible and that is not descent," I have a right to no longer fellowship with him anymore and or submit to building his ministry. The same would be true for any other sin the Pastor may condone and think is okay. Why would submit to a spiritual leader that does not follow Jesus?

I agree but that still is not the point I intended to make.

A person who is not following his/her own advice can still give very good advice.
A person who breaks the law himself/herself can still clearly express what the law is.
A person who is mired in bad choices and decisions or actions can be in a good position of telling others what not to do.

The person who is sinning has no moral standing to accuse another of the same sin or pass sentence on that person. But he/she can still give sound advice on how to avoid the sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is very clear how we are told not to sin.

And God's word is guaranteed to accomplish all He means by His word, right?

Isaiah 55:11

So, I see that God's word in us His children will succeed in keeping us from sinning and going to Hell. So, I do not believe someone can trust in Jesus and then keep sinning enough to go to Hell; or else God's word has not accomplished what He pleases. Also, I do not buy that ones who are children of God can die by surprise, during some sin; since God is in control of what happens to His own children, and on the overall He is succeeding in conforming us to the image of His Son > Romans 8:29 < this is not about how well we get ourselves to be committed in our human free wills, but this is about how God is committed to changing us in spite of ourselves so we become His way . . . like Jesus who can not sin.

So, what really works so we do not sin?

If I am not perfectly like Jesus in my nature, I can sin by letting my attention get away from how God would personally rule me with His own peace in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

If I have a relationship for one moment with a spirit of what is not God's peace, do you consider this to be grievous or to be expected?? Satan's spirit can get me into boredom or loneliness or anger or bitterness or unforgiveness. But why do I not stay there? I give God the credit for getting me back, no thanks to me.

When I fail in this, I am not theorizing that I will go to Heaven, anyway; I need to trust God to change my character so I can not fail to stay submissive to Him in His ruling of His own peace in us. And His correction is guaranteed to make us "partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness", I understand from Hebrews 12:4-14. This is guaranteed to all His children > Hebrews 12:8. So, I understand this is guaranteed, how God will succeed in us who have trusted in Jesus.

So, if this is what the Bible means, there is no theoretical whatever about what if someone keeps sinning. Plus, His correction does not only stop sinning, but God changes us to become like Jesus and He has us loving any and all people the way Jesus in us has us loving, including how we relate as His family with one another.

And we do have >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

This "has" been done. This is guaranteed. So, I don't think there is the possibility that a child of God can somehow die by surprise and go to Hell because of being in some moment of sin. God is the One who does real correction so this does not happen. So, I understand that trusting in Jesus includes trusting our Heavenly Father to so succeed in us.

So, I don't believe someone who has given oneself to Jesus is then going to stay able to sin and go to Hell. This would mean the person has not been perfected in God's love which makes us like Jesus "in this world".

Plus, if someone can sin to Hell, this would mean the person has kept one's human free will so the person can do that, when Jesus says to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily and follow Him > if I deny my self, doesn't this include denying my own human free will with my human ability to make choices? How can I keep that old human stuff and become a truly new creation in Jesus > 2 Corinthians 5:17?

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

If God has taken over in our wills, He is now in control. And if He is committed to finishing the job > Philippians 1:6 > He can make sure we don't give ourselves to Satan and die while sinning. And He is in control of if and when each of His children dies. And we have trusted Him to truly change us so we stay His way for all eternity.

He would have to choose to let go of me enough so I would give in to Satan. And if I could, this would mean He has not changed me into the image of Jesus.

But, in any case, what really works to keep us from sinning, if you wish to get into this?

Well, I don't think we should be cavalier about sin and think God will not destroy us in the after life if we do sin and or if we do not plan to confess and or forsake such a sin (or sins).

The problem arises when somebody thinks they can commit grievous sin on occasion as a matter of fact the rest of their whole lives and still be right with God. In this case, they would not be working out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

As for moments where we do not have the peace of God as being a sin:
Well, there is no verse that says we have to have the peace of God 24/7. Sometimes we can have righteous anger against sin with us loving the sinner or sinners. So I am not sure we have to always be in a state of peace. But Hebrews 12:14 does say that we are to follow after making peace with all men, otherwise, we will not see the Lord. In other words, we need to pray for our enemies and love them and do good towards them and we should try to reconcile with those in whom we do not have peace with (if we can).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree but that still is not the point I intended to make.

A person who is not following his/her own advice can still give very good advice.
A person who breaks the law himself/herself can still clearly express what the law is.
A person who is mired in bad choices and decisions or actions can be in a good position of telling others what not to do.

The person who is sinning has no moral standing to accuse another of the same sin or pass sentence on that person. But he/she can still give sound advice on how to avoid the sin.

Yes, they can give advice that can be helpful, but their advice should be taken with a grain of salt (seeing they have not conquered that sin themselves). We also should not submit to their authority in spreading their ministry or feel obligated to do church activities within their particular church because they have lost the right to be a true authority from God unless of course they repent (confess of their sin), and they bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. We should strive to seek fellowship elsewhere with those who are truly following the Lord and they are not seeking to justify sin or to be hypocrital about it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God apparently thinks so:

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” -- Hebrews 12

The chastening implies that they will heed that correction or discipline. They will not stay down in the mud forever. If they are then there is no purpose of correction then. That would be a master who yells at his dog and smacks it on the nose while knowing he knows it has an uncontrollable pooping problem. Correction in that case does not help the poor animal because it cannot help but to release brown hot steamy piles of goodness upon his carpets. Only if the animal can be corrected, does chastening such an animal make sense because the intended goal or purpose is to get the animal to stop it's pooping parade within his home.

So when Hebrews 12 talks about how God loves those in whom He chastens, it is in view of the fact that God knows that this person will eventually heed that correction or discipline at some point whereby they will stop committing such a sin or sins.

If so, then why couldn't they think to themselves that they can live like that until they are ready to seek forgiveness with the Lord until they are on their deathbeds?

I don't know what that sentence means.

I am saying that a believer can justify doing a sin on some level (whether that be a sin they do on occasion over the course of their lives or whether they do this sin all the time) and they think that even while these sins may condemn them over the course of their lives, they might think they can confess their sins to Jesus to be forgiven of these sins (so as to be forgiven of these sins or saved again) at the last few moments of their life before they die. So there is no need to live for the Lord. While they may think doing certain sins can destroy their soul or indicate that they may not have been saved, they can just repent shortly before they die and think they will be okay with God. But what if life surprises them and die unexpectly with no time to repent? What then?

Can God agree with a person's thinking that they can sin and still be saved?

That has nothing to do with obedience to church leadership.

Scripture never gives us permission to be disobedient to authority, unless authority is commanding us to commit sin.

And this isn't even different from the military, in which authority is authority until it is replaced by higher authority.

Let's say, for instance, the president is blatantly committing "high crimes and misdemeanors" in financial matters.

The military cannot say, "The president is committing financial crimes, therefore we will not obey his orders."

The military is still obligated to obey his lawful orders until he is convicted by impeachment and removed from office by Congress and the Supreme Court.

This was just as true in the Old Testament. The lawful orders of the king were to be obeyed until God removed him from the throne, even if the king was involved in perfidy in some other area.

Obedience to the government must be obeyed (if those laws do not conflict with God's laws). We obey governments because they meet the qualification of being a real government and not a fake government. What you fail to understand is that believers who are leaders or examples to us to follow must also meet the qualifications in being a true believer so as to submit to their authority in spreading their ministry. If your pastor one day told you to spread the gospel unclothed, you would of course... say no. At least, I hope you would. But even if they told you to do something legit according to God's Word, you should obey based on God's Word and not in what they are not qualified. Do you go to a doctor who is not qualfied to be a true doctor? Of course not. Then why obey or follow a spiritual leader who is not qualified. For if you have a doctor, do you want a half serious doctor or a full committed doctor? Surely the Lord wants us to be fully committed and not half committed in being followers of His Kingdom.

 

[RDKirk]

The chastening implies that they will heed that correction or discipline. They will not stay down in the mud forever. If they are then there is no purpose of correction then. That would be a master who yells at his dog and smacks it on the nose while knowing he knows it has an uncontrollable pooping problem. Correction in that case does not help the poor animal because it cannot help but to release brown hot steamy piles of goodness upon his carpets. Only if the animal can be corrected, does chastening such an animal make sense because the intended goal or purpose is to get the animal to stop it's pooping parade within his home.

Okay, I pointed out that if there is a behavior problem with a pastor, scripture gives us specific instructions in how to deal with it.

But you ignored that. You are sticking to your argument for rebellion in the congregation rather than dealing directly with the problem as scripture instructions.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes, they can give advice that can be helpful, but their advice should be done with a grain of salt (seeing they have not conqured that sin themselves). We also should not submit to their authority in spreading their ministry or feel obligated to do church activities within their particular church because they have lost the right to be a true authority from God unless of course they repent (confess of their sin), and they bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. We should strive to seek fellowship elsewhere with those who are truly following the Lord and they are not seeking to justify sin or to be hypocrital about it.

I don't know about that. I look at the evidence of a Jesus who didn't meet people and see their sin as the most important thing about them. All have sinned and fallen short. Jesus saw people for who and what they were and saw their potential. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." "Then neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."

God has called the most unlikely people into his service. And he does move in mysterious ways. My job is to address and deal with my own sin. I may be called to help another with his or her sin, but not to judge the other. And even though we are sinners, we can be called into His service for whatever purpose.

As for that grain of salt, I apply it pretty liberally when it comes to religious zealots, politics, salesmen, and other areas where prejudice or bias or maybe self-serving interests are a factor.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, I pointed out that if there is a behavior problem with a pastor, scripture gives us specific instructions in how to deal with it.

But you ignored that. You are sticking to your argument for rebellion in the congregation rather than dealing directly with the problem as scripture instructions.

You did not offer a verse or passage that says that a spiritual leader can disobey God and still act as if he is a part of the body of fellowship to give advice. 1 Corinthians 5 told us to kick out that brother who was committing fornication within the church body. We were told not to eat or have fellowship with that brother who was committing fornication. This brother needed to be restored only via by repentance (seeking forgiveness) over their sin. So to say that we are to obey a fellow spiritual leader who lets say "commits fornication" would not be possible because they should be kicked out of the body. Look at the qualifications of even a bishop and they are very high qualifications that need to be met. Just being a a regular brother there needs to be qualifications so as to fellowship. That is what you do not understand. You think Christians can walk in sin and be forgiven by Jesus by having a belief on Jesus. It doesn't work like that. They have to live holy on some bare minimum level to be a part of the body. The qualifications to being a spiritual leader is even higher than your regular average believer who is having fellowship with them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't know about that. I look at the evidence of a Jesus who didn't meet people and see their sin as the most important thing about them. All have sinned and fallen short. Jesus saw people for who and what they were and saw their potential. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." "Then neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."

Jesus did not see that their sin was the most important thing about them. Jesus is God, and He cannot agree with sin. If he thought sin was important He would be in agreement with sin and that is not possible. Jesus can forgive sin but that is only if they are seeking forgiveness and they are seeking to forsake such a sin. A belief alone on Jesus with them thinking they can continue to sin is not going to work. They would not truly be sorry over their sin, and they would think they can serve God and their sin. Jesus could not agree with that line of thinking because He is holy and righteous.

God has called the most unlikely people into his service. And he does move in mysterious ways.

Only if they seek forgiveness of their sins with the Lord and forsake those sins.

My job is to address and deal with my own sin. I may be called to help another with his or her sin, but not to judge the other. And even though we are sinners, we can be called into His service for whatever purpose.

No. We are supposed to be sinners as a part of our old life and not within our present walk with God. There is no point to give advice for others to stop sinning or to give righteous instruction if we will all just sin. The purpose or righteous instruction is to stop sinning. If a so called spiritual leader tells Bob to stop sleeping around, and he is doing so himself, he would be a hypocrite according to Jesus. He would also be committing adultery and he would be abiding in spiritual death whereby he would need to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord in order to be forgiven of such a sin so as to be saved). A belief alone in Jesus just leads people to think they are can just sin and still be saved. Their advice in righteous instruction is but a sham or a joke if no real change comes about in any of their lives. It would be like saying you are okay with hypocrisy if you let men (who have not overcome a certain sin) tell other men to not do that sin they are doing. It's not right. There would be no standard of morality.

Think.

If a whole church were to die in a state of them all committing various rotten sins and they were to enter Heaven in the sinful state that they were in, they would not be all too comfortable around a holy God, and holy angels, and other holy saints. They would feel like they are out of place. Such a holy place would repulse them.

As for that grain of salt, I apply it pretty liberally when it comes to religious zealots, politics, salesmen, and other areas where prejudice or bias or maybe self-serving interests are a factor.

In my view, one should leave a church if they are acting hypocritical because Jesus mentioned how can the Pharisees escape the judgment of hell fire in relation to their hypocrisy in Matthew 23. Jesus did not say, "Oh, it's okay for you to be a hypocrite as long as you believe in me as your Savior." No. That's not what happened. Please read Matthew 23. 7 times the word "hypocrite" is mentioned, and one time the word "hypocrisy" is mentioned, all in relation to the damnation of hell. So no. Your leaders in church cannot be hypocrites. For if Jesus was physically there in their presence, He would have condemned them to hell. Jesus condemned men for being hypocrites. Sorry. It is just what the Bible says.

 

[Foxfyre]

Jesus did not see that their sin was the most important thing about them. Jesus is God, and He cannot agree with sin. If he thought sin was important He would be in agreement with sin and that is not possible. Jesus can forgive sin but that is only if they are seeking forgiveness and they are seeking to forsake such a sin. A belief alone on Jesus with them thinking they can continue to sin is not going to work. They would not truly be sorry over their sin, and they would think they can serve God and their sin. Jesus could not agree with that line of thinking because He is holy and righteous.



Only if they seek forgiveness of their sins with the Lord and forsake those sins.



No. We are supposed to be sinners as a part of our old life and not within our present walk with God. There is no point to give advice for others to stop sinning or to give righteous instruction if we will all just sin. The purpose or righteous instruction is to stop sinning. If a so called spiritual leader tells Bob to stop sleeping around, and he is doing so himself, he would be a hypocrite according to Jesus. He would also be committing adultery and he would be abiding in spiritual death whereby he would need to repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord in order to be forgiven of such a sin so as to be saved). A belief alone in Jesus just leads people to think they are can just sin and still be saved. Their advice in righteous instruction is but a sham or a joke if no real change comes about in any of their lives. It would be like saying you are okay with hypocrisy if you let men (who have not overcome a certain sin) tell other men to not do that sin they are doing. It's not right. There would be no standard of morality.

Think.

If a whole church were to die in a state of them all committing various rotten sins and they were to enter Heaven in the sinful state that they were in, they would not be all too comfortable around a holy God, and holy angels, and other holy saints. They would feel like they are out of place. Such a holy place would repulse them.



In my view, one should leave a church if they are acting hypocritical because Jesus mentioned how can the Pharisees escape the judgment of hell fire in relation to their hypocrisy in Matthew 23. Jesus did not say, "Oh, it's okay for you to be a hypocrite as long as you believe in me as your Savior." No. That's not what happened. Please read Matthew 23. 7 times the word "hypocrite" is mentioned, and one time the word "hypocrisy" is mentioned, all in relation to the damnation of hell. So no. Your leaders in church cannot be hypocrites. For if Jesus was physically there in their presence, He would have condemned them to hell. Jesus condemned men for being hypocrites. Sorry. It is just what the Bible says.

Repentance and asking forgiveness are separate things. One is an apology and asking to not be held accountable for an offense. The other is a decision to not sin and live differently. I think Jesus honors both.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Repentance and asking forgiveness are separate things. One is an apology and asking to not be held accountable for an offense. The other is a decision to not sin and live differently. I think Jesus honors both.

Sorry, I just do not see repentance described in this way according to the Bible. Here is...

My Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sorry, I just do not see repentance described in this way according to the Bible. Here is...

My Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

We don't have to make it complicated.

Asking God's forgiveness is to acknowledge that we are a sinner and in need of God's grace.

To repent is to turn away from our sin and give our life to God to amend our life and help us achieve abstinence from sin.

Two different things. And in my opinion both are necessary in order to have the fullest relationship with the Living Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We don't have to make it complicated.

Well, I am not making complicated. It's actually rather simple. Popular Pastors or Theologians have actually confused this topic or issue to serve their own ends. My study on this topic came not in the wisdom of men, but in simply studying God's Word alone on it.

Asking God's forgiveness is to acknowledge that we are a sinner and in need of God's grace.

No. It is not only acknowledging one's sins (i.e. them being a sinner), but it is in seeking the Lord's mercy. It involves a Godly sorrow and not a worldly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10). For example: If a husband was sorry that he cheated on his wife, he would not just acknowledge his sin to her alone and then act like there was nothing wrong. He would actually say that he is "sorry." He would have to be broken up about his transgression and he would be begging for forgiveness. If not, then he is just paying empty lip service that does not mean anything. He would just be acknowledging his own evil without any real care or concern that touches his heart. We must do the same with God.

To repent is to turn away from our sin and give our life to God to amend our life and help us achieve abstinence from sin.

No. It's not. Forsaking of sin is the "FRUITS of repentance."
Why on Earth does John the Baptist say "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance" if the fruit is the same thing as the tree? What is the tree? The tree is repentance; And the fruit of the tree (are deeds). Two separate things (although they are related). In Acts it talks about bringing forth deeds befitting of repentance. So fruits are deeds or it can also include forsaking sin.

Plus, how can "repent" exclusively mean "forsake sin"?

Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

Two different things. And in my opinion both are necessary in order to have the fullest relationship with the Living Christ.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sins shall have mercy.
1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7 confirms this truth among other verses.

Side Note:

You also did not address my points in Scripture about repentance in how it is not the case. If you disagree, please go back and explain what you think they are really saying using the context and or cross references.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well, I am not making complicated. It's actually rather simple. Popular Pastors or Theologians have actually confused this topic or issue to serve their own ends. My study on this topic came not in the wisdom of men, but in simply studying God's Word alone on it.



No. It is not only acknowledging one's sins (i.e. them being a sinner), but it is in seeking the Lord's mercy. It involves a Godly sorrow and not a worldly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10). For example: If a husband was sorry that he cheated on his wife, he would not just acknowledge his sin to her alone and then act like there was nothing wrong. He would actually say that he is "sorry." He would have to be broken up about his transgression and he would be begging for forgiveness. If not, then he is just paying empty lip service that does not mean anything. He would just be acknowledging his own evil without any real care or concern that touches his heart. We must do the same with God.



No. It's not. Forsaking of sin is the "FRUITS of repentance."
Why on Earth does John the Baptist say "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance" if the fruit is the same thing as the tree? What is the tree? The tree is repentance; And the fruit of the tree (are deeds). Two separate things (although they are related). In Acts it talks about bringing forth deeds befitting of repentance. So fruits are deeds or it can also include forsaking sin.

Plus, how can "repent" exclusively mean "forsake sin"?

Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?



Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sins shall have mercy.
1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7 confirms this truth among other verses.

Side Note:

You also did not address my points in Scripture about repentance in how it is not the case. If you disagree, please go back and explain what you think they are really saying using the context and or cross references.

I didn't address each of your points in Scripture as I didn't think that would be helpful to the discussion. I did comment that in my opinion we didn't have to make it that complicated. You and I probably won't agree on that. Neither of us is necessarily wrong. And it is okay to disagree.

For me all the law and scriptures are fulfilled in loving the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and mind. and loving/treating others as I want to be loved/treated. The scriptures inform me in various ways for various issues, situations, and problems I encounter. But I will stand by my simple definitions of repentance, forgiveness, and grace because they have proved to be accurate in my life experience.

So I will agree to disagree and wish you peace and grace and happiness as we both obey the Lord as the Spirit leads.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Can Pastors tell others what to do if they are not obeying their own instruction?

Even a Pastor is to follow Matthew 18:15-18 instructions. They are not a dictator. It is the Elders of the Church along with the Whole Church that makes those decisions. Such should not be done in front of new Christians.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Also, the OP did not give enough details. If for example, the person is a drug dealer or practicing sexual sin. The Pastor can contact the Police on one and bring it to the Elders on the other. Follow Matthew 18:15-18.