Can non-Orthodox make it to Heaven? Non-Christians?

[Jackson Cooper]

I think you are thinking of salvation in terms of a legal standing before God. That protestant idea is alien to the gospel.

I grew up heavily in Baptist stuff. What is the Orthodox idea? To Baptists, it's either Heaven or Hell.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I still don't understand.
Are you saying that there is no salvation outside the church, but people can join the church after death?

yes, I am saying the final role call of the Church is Judgment Day, and God uses whatever He can to save as many souls as possible.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Didn't the early Fathers state that there was NO salvation outside of the church?

Not to mention, the ECFs weren't talking about Baptists, etc.

 

[YCGP]

I have to meditate on this but I am glad to hear that it is possible to be saved after death.

Members of my immediate family are non-believers. One of them may very well be rich soon, as her husband has a very lucrative job. Needless to say, this worries me. I feel guilty when I think that I may never be a forceful man as they are in heaven and do all I can to make my family adopt the Faith.

I will pray to God that they do good works, as I do not feel comfortable praying for them to find Jesus. Can anyone relate?

 

[Hermit76]

I grew up heavily in Baptist stuff. What is the Orthodox idea? To Baptists, it's either Heaven or Hell.

Well, we don't believe that sin separates us from the love of God the way that Baptists do. We are not fallen in the sense that we are separated from God and cannot be recipients of His love outside of the Church. The Church is God's chosen ark of salvation. However, God is still God. He loves all mankind and deals with people as He wishes.
Baptists would say it is heretical to think that God grants anything to anyone outside of an evangelical salvation experience. Orthodox understand the wholeness of salvation. Christ came to bring life and in that life He brings salvation. We know that salvation definitely exists in the Church, but God is also at work drawing people to the church. They are on a path and God is in control of their eternity. What others have said comes down to this... If God chooses to grant salvation to anyone either before or after death, it does not diminish the teaching that salvation exists in the Orthodox Church. Subsequently, those who He may grant salvation is, in truth, being brought into Him and thus into the Church. So in that sense, yes, people can come to the Church after death.
Salvation is not a checklist that changes our status somehow. It is the result of the graces of God. We cooperate with those graces to the best of our ability and trust in God's Mercy.
This is indeed very different than the protestant misunderstanding of salvation.

If I have misspoke, would one of the more seasoned Orthodox please correct me?

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Not to mention, the ECFs weren't talking about Baptists, etc.

Would you say that Matthew 25, which is about Jesus allowing people into Heaven based on whether or not they were charitable, shows that one can get into Heaven without attending the Eastern Orthodox church?
Does the word 'salvation' in "There is no salvation outside of the church" mean security?

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Well, we don't believe that sin separates us from the love of God the way that Baptists do. We are not fallen in the sense that we are separated from God and cannot be recipients of His love outside of the Church. The Church is God's chosen ark of salvation. However, God is still God. He loves all mankind and deals with people as He wishes.
Baptists would say it is heretical to think that God grants anything to anyone outside of an evangelical salvation experience. Orthodox understand the wholeness of salvation. Christ came to bring life and in that life He brings salvation. We know that salvation definitely exists in the Church, but God is also at work drawing people to the church. They are on a path and God is in control of their eternity. What others have said comes down to this... If God chooses to grant salvation to anyone either before or after death, it does not diminish the teaching that salvation exists in the Orthodox Church. Subsequently, those who He may grant salvation is, in truth, being brought into Him and thus into the Church. So in that sense, yes, people can come to the Church after death.
Salvation is not a checklist that changes our status somehow. It is the result of the graces of God. We cooperate with those graces to the best of our ability and trust in God's Mercy.
This is indeed very different than the protestant misunderstanding of salvation.

If I have misspoke, would one of the more seasoned Orthodox please correct me?

Yes, I just spoke with my priest on this. Baptists believe there is a bare-minimum 'tripwire' you cross where you all of a sudden become saved. I find the Eastern Orthodox interpretation of the gospels to be much more logically consistent.
Even if there is such a tripwire to cross, it is good that God doesn't tell us for our own sake.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Would you say that Matthew 25, which is about Jesus allowing people into Heaven based on whether or not they were charitable, shows that one can get into Heaven without attending the Eastern Orthodox church?
Does the word 'salvation' in "There is no salvation outside of the church" mean security?

Do you mean only the ones who did for others (or didn't) or also the 10 virgins and the talents?

It doesn't really matter. Jesus wasn't talking about a Church. Jesus was talking about what we do, what kind if people we become, who we are. Whether we have love for him and others - or not. And so on.

BECAUSE Jesus wasn't talking about the Church you could extrapolate that He is not connecting salvation to Church membership but ... basically I think using that chapter to say anything other than what Jesus actually IS saying (it matters who we are and what we do) is a misuse of the passage.

No, I don't think it's right to say "there is no security outside the Orthodox Church" ... because there is no security just by being in it either. It's possible to get baptized, Chrismated, cone to Liturgy regularly, receive the Eucharist, and so on ... and just be "going through the motions" with no real change, no real heart for God, no love toward anyone. Such a person has no "security" just because "they went to the right Church".

God wants to save everyone. But we must cooperate with Him in order to be saved. The best and surest way to do that is within the Orthodox Church. Within her is all of the fullness of the faith, all of the tools to help work out our salvation, and so on. But God desires all to be saved. And He is not limited by the physical boundaries of the Church, especially since she is not in all places or available to all people, and there are various reasons people may be prevented from the Church but who still love God. We do not say that He will abandon them for those reasons. We also do not say God will overlook lack of a true faith in someone just because they do belong to the Church and save them anyway.

We must always remember - always - God can do what He wants. And He WANTS to save people.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, I just spoke with my priest on this. Baptists believe there is a bare-minimum 'tripwire' you cross where you all of a sudden become saved. I find the Eastern Orthodox interpretation of the gospels to be much more logically consistent.
Even if there is such a tripwire to cross, it is good that God doesn't tell us for our own sake.

Usually Baptists expect that you must (1) believe and (2) "invite Jesus into your life", usually by means of a "sinner's prayer" ... which often includes acknowledgement of being sinful, needing salvation, accepting Christ's sacrifice as atonement, and a request for Him to save them.

These are all fine things. But after that, the water gets muddied. Baptists have varying theologies. Some think that no matter what you do, even if you go off and spend your life murdering folks, you will be saved because you're already forgiven. Some others might say such a person was never really saved. Most see no need for living a life of repentance and may even view that as a lack of faith that one is "already saved". Most agree that we act somewhat better, but see that as nothing, instead believing that God intentionally overlooks any sin in us and chooses to see Christ in our place. There are many other variations besides - there are so many Baptist denominations.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Do you mean only the ones who did for others (or didn't) or also the 10 virgins and the talents?

It doesn't really matter. Jesus wasn't talking about a Church. Jesus was talking about what we do, what kind if people we become, who we are. Whether we have love for him and others - or not. And so on.

BECAUSE Jesus wasn't talking about the Church you could extrapolate that He is not connecting salvation to Church membership but ... basically I think using that chapter to say anything other than what Jesus actually IS saying (it matters who we are and what we do) is a misuse of the passage.

No, I don't think it's right to say "there is no security outside the Orthodox Church" ... because there is no security just by being in it either. It's possible to get baptized, Chrismated, cone to Liturgy regularly, receive the Eucharist, and so on ... and just be "going through the motions" with no real change, no real heart for God, no love toward anyone. Such a person has no "security" just because "they went to the right Church".

God wants to save everyone. But we must cooperate with Him in order to be saved. The best and surest way to do that is within the Orthodox Church. Within her is all of the fullness of the faith, all of the tools to help work out our salvation, and so on. But God desires all to be saved. And He is not limited by the physical boundaries of the Church, especially since she is not in all places or available to all people, and there are various reasons people may be prevented from the Church but who still love God. We do not say that He will abandon them for those reasons. We also do not say God will overlook lack of a true faith in someone just because they do belong to the Church and save them anyway.

We must always remember - always - God can do what He wants. And He WANTS to save people.

What do you think the saying "There is no salvation outside the church" means then?

 

[~Anastasia~]

What do you think the saying "There is no salvation outside the church" means then?

I think that if you want to fully understand it, you need the context.

For example

Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): “[The Church] is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers… We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come… Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.” (Against Heresies , Book III)

Origen (died A.D. 254): “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved.”

Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): “He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.’ Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ.” (Unity of the Catholic Church )

(Much as I'm not a fan of quoting Origen, his is the most direct. And this came from a Catholic site, but these are very early quotes, centuries pre-schism.)

What do you think Origen meant, when he said that very thing in the third century? Was he saying that Baptists, and Lutherans, and Methodists couldn't be saved? There would be none of those for well over 1000 years.

The was only "the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" just as we say in the Creed today. And most of the bishops never left. We are still in communion with those very same Churches mentioned in the Scriptures who still exist today.

So we know where God has promised help. We know what God established. We have the teachings of the ECFs, the desert fathers and mothers, centuries and centuries of the experiences of Saints who lived lives that made them vehicles for God's grace, even continuing as a legacy. We have the Eucharist. We have the clergy, in an unbroken line from the Lord's own Apostles. We know how God has promised His help, what He has given us. We know where God is.



Much has happened in the many centuries since then. The particular persons who rejected the Church, God knows their hearts and reasons, and their end. Only He can judge them. But in schisms upon schisms since then, you have fellowships generations removed through schism from Orthodoxy. People brought up in these fellowships who maybe never heard of Orthodoxy, but who love God and seek Him the best way they know, many of them no doubt with hearts much more fervent than mine! God knows them. God will judge them. If nothing else, they perhaps some of them achieve His grace even without the tools we have been given. So much the better they have done.

As for us, I am reminded that "to whom much has been given, much is required". We are responsible for the greater help we have received, to do more with it, perhaps.


It seems to me (maybe I'm wrong) that you're looking for a simple answer regarding that quote. There isn't one. The Church has not ruled on our relationship to the non-Orthodox, except we do know that they are often received by Chrismation alone if they were already baptized so ... that tells you a little. If they were baptized by pagans, it wouldn't be accepted - just as we don't accept the baptisms of some, like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, because of their errors about Christ.

But there is not a simple straight line answer dividing "who's in" from "who's out" because that is ultimately God's business, not ours.

I am sure I know Orthodox Christians who will be saved. I believe I also know Christians of other kinds who will be saved.

I fear there are Orthodox who are lost. I fear there are those who belong to other groups who are lost. Perhaps God will save even them before it's all over. Only He knows.

It's a messy answer, but that's what there is. Only God judges. We try to presume neither way for anyone. The best we can know is if we are truly working out our own salvation right now, or not.

Forgive me if this isn't what you want.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

I think that if you want to fully understand it, you need the context.

For example

Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): “[The Church] is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers… We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come… Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.” (Against Heresies , Book III)

Origen (died A.D. 254): “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved.”

Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): “He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.’ Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ.” (Unity of the Catholic Church )

(Much as I'm not a fan of quoting Origen, his is the most direct. And this came from a Catholic site, but these are very early quotes, centuries pre-schism.)

What do you think Origen meant, when he said that very thing in the third century? Was he saying that Baptists, and Lutherans, and Methodists couldn't be saved? There would be none of those for well over 1000 years.

The was only "the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" just as we say in the Creed today. And most of the bishops never left. We are still in communion with those very same Churches mentioned in the Scriptures who still exist today.

So we know where God has promised help. We know what God established. We have the teachings of the ECFs, the desert fathers and mothers, centuries and centuries of the experiences of Saints who lived lives that made them vehicles for God's grace, even continuing as a legacy. We have the Eucharist. We have the clergy, in an unbroken line from the Lord's own Apostles. We know how God has promised His help, what He has given us. We know where God is.



Much has happened in the many centuries since then. The particular persons who rejected the Church, God knows their hearts and reasons, and their end. Only He can judge them. But in schisms upon schisms since then, you have fellowships generations removed through schism from Orthodoxy. People brought up in these fellowships who maybe never heard of Orthodoxy, but who love God and seek Him the best way they know, many of them no doubt with hearts much more fervent than mine! God knows them. God will judge them. If nothing else, they perhaps some of them achieve His grace even without the tools we have been given. So much the better they have done.

As for us, I am reminded that "to whom much has been given, much is required". We are responsible for the greater help we have received, to do more with it, perhaps.


It seems to me (maybe I'm wrong) that you're looking for a simple answer regarding that quote. There isn't one. The Church has not ruled on our relationship to the non-Orthodox, except we do know that they are often received by Chrismation alone if they were already baptized so ... that tells you a little. If they were baptized by pagans, it wouldn't be accepted - just as we don't accept the baptisms of some, like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, because of their errors about Christ.

But there is not a simple straight line answer dividing "who's in" from "who's out" because that is ultimately God's business, not ours.

I am sure I know Orthodox Christians who will be saved. I believe I also know Christians of other kinds who will be saved.

I fear there are Orthodox who are lost. I fear there are those who belong to other groups who are lost. Perhaps God will save even them before it's all over. Only He knows.

It's a messy answer, but that's what there is. Only God judges. We try to presume neither way for anyone. The best we can know is if we are truly working out our own salvation right now, or not.

Forgive me if this isn't what you want.

Good answer. From reading the Gospels, Jesus doesn't seem like He would say "You went to wrong church, therefore depart from me." That sounds so... legalistic.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Do you mean only the ones who did for others (or didn't) or also the 10 virgins and the talents?

It doesn't really matter. Jesus wasn't talking about a Church. Jesus was talking about what we do, what kind if people we become, who we are. Whether we have love for him and others - or not. And so on.

BECAUSE Jesus wasn't talking about the Church you could extrapolate that He is not connecting salvation to Church membership but ... basically I think using that chapter to say anything other than what Jesus actually IS saying (it matters who we are and what we do) is a misuse of the passage.

No, I don't think it's right to say "there is no security outside the Orthodox Church" ... because there is no security just by being in it either. It's possible to get baptized, Chrismated, cone to Liturgy regularly, receive the Eucharist, and so on ... and just be "going through the motions" with no real change, no real heart for God, no love toward anyone. Such a person has no "security" just because "they went to the right Church".

God wants to save everyone. But we must cooperate with Him in order to be saved. The best and surest way to do that is within the Orthodox Church. Within her is all of the fullness of the faith, all of the tools to help work out our salvation, and so on. But God desires all to be saved. And He is not limited by the physical boundaries of the Church, especially since she is not in all places or available to all people, and there are various reasons people may be prevented from the Church but who still love God. We do not say that He will abandon them for those reasons. We also do not say God will overlook lack of a true faith in someone just because they do belong to the Church and save them anyway.

We must always remember - always - God can do what He wants. And He WANTS to save people.

By 'security' I meant more security, not total security.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By 'security' I meant more security, not total security.

Ok so "is there more security in the Church?"

My answer would be that I don't like the word "security" used this way. It is too easily misunderstood. Maybe you mean something different than I'm guessing?

I'm thinking of three possible conditions to compare in answering your question.

(1) We have a full set of tools in the Orthodox Church. We have the Holy Scriptures. We have the teaching of all the Saints through the centuries. We have the promise of God's grace via the Sacraments. We have His command "do it this way" so that we know we are being obedient. God loves us, wants to save us, and gives us all that we need for salvation.

(2) Outside the Church and in the world, we have a God that we know desires to save men and who doesn't need anyone's permission to carry it out in any way He sees fit. He can draw a heathen or whoever to Himself if He chooses, someone who is without access to any of the things I just listed.

(3) And then in between, we have all sorts of denominations. They all have the Holy Scriptures (or most of them), though many reject the interpretation that came along with them. But the Scriptures are very valuable and contain what men need to know - it's just that some don't read this passage or that one correctly, with various degrees of setting themselves apart from Apostolic teaching as a result. What else do they have from the list above? It depends on who you're looking at, but all of the rest is rejected in varying degrees by some of them. Some reject all the rest. Even those that embrace it along with us don't embrace quite all of it or change it somehow. But we still have a God that desires to save people and can do whatever He wants.

I absolutely can't judge the salvation of anyone in any of these three groups. My guess is that there are those who pursue God, and those who don't, in each group.

But given a fully informed choice, which would you choose to be a part of? And why?

Personally I am of the mind that I want all the help I can get, so I would rather have access to everything the Orthodox Church can offer. I'm still hesitant to call that "security" but I think it is true that we are SAFER in the Orthodox Church.

In my lifetime I've probably encountered every heresy there is. And some of them were delivered by people who were very easy to believe, who seemed very godly. And often they were very skilled at using Scripture to "prove" whatever they were teaching. I had no real defense. But now I can know with confidence and know WHY I know what is true and what isn't. That's safer, in my mind. And it's safer to know that I'm receiving from those things that Christ commanded, and that He said were necessary for life and salvation.

Anyway. Very long answer, sorry!

 

[prodromos]

But given a fully informed choice, which would you choose to be a part of? And why?

One of the earlier members of TAW (Iacobus) put it like this;

Why would I ride in a box of spare parts when I can ride shotgun with the Sheriff?

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Ok so "is there more security in the Church?"

My answer would be that I don't like the word "security" used this way. It is too easily misunderstood. Maybe you mean something different than I'm guessing?

I'm thinking of three possible conditions to compare in answering your question.

(1) We have a full set of tools in the Orthodox Church. We have the Holy Scriptures. We have the teaching of all the Saints through the centuries. We have the promise of God's grace via the Sacraments. We have His command "do it this way" so that we know we are being obedient. God loves us, wants to save us, and gives us all that we need for salvation.

(2) Outside the Church and in the world, we have a God that we know desires to save men and who doesn't need anyone's permission to carry it out in any way He sees fit. He can draw a heathen or whoever to Himself if He chooses, someone who is without access to any of the things I just listed.

(3) And then in between, we have all sorts of denominations. They all have the Holy Scriptures (or most of them), though many reject the interpretation that came along with them. But the Scriptures are very valuable and contain what men need to know - it's just that some don't read this passage or that one correctly, with various degrees of setting themselves apart from Apostolic teaching as a result. What else do they have from the list above? It depends on who you're looking at, but all of the rest is rejected in varying degrees by some of them. Some reject all the rest. Even those that embrace it along with us don't embrace quite all of it or change it somehow. But we still have a God that desires to save people and can do whatever He wants.

I absolutely can't judge the salvation of anyone in any of these three groups. My guess is that there are those who pursue God, and those who don't, in each group.

But given a fully informed choice, which would you choose to be a part of? And why?

Personally I am of the mind that I want all the help I can get, so I would rather have access to everything the Orthodox Church can offer. I'm still hesitant to call that "security" but I think it is true that we are SAFER in the Orthodox Church.

In my lifetime I've probably encountered every heresy there is. And some of them were delivered by people who were very easy to believe, who seemed very godly. And often they were very skilled at using Scripture to "prove" whatever they were teaching. I had no real defense. But now I can know with confidence and know WHY I know what is true and what isn't. That's safer, in my mind. And it's safer to know that I'm receiving from those things that Christ commanded, and that He said were necessary for life and salvation.

Anyway. Very long answer, sorry!

Do you think Matthew 25, which shows Jesus allowing people into Heaven based on whether or not they were charitable, is an indication that anyone outside the church could be saved? Those ECF quotes seem pretty clear that at least all pagans would be going to Hell at a rate of 100%.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do you think Matthew 25, which shows Jesus allowing people into Heaven based on whether or not they were charitable, is an indication that anyone outside the church could be saved? Those ECF quotes seem pretty clear that at least all pagans would be going to Hell at a rate of 100%.

You have to take those quotes in context. They were generally speaking of those who abandoned the Church, and therefore rejected the Gospel, having already received it.

The Church has always understood Scripture, such as Romans 2, to speak of the deeds of people outside to be their own judgement - either accusing or excusing them.

St. Matthew's writing is more about the heart revealed through actions, rather than being a way for pagans to find salvation. It is a warning that we must actually BE Christians, rather than just say we are, and further that it is through our love that we and others can know whose we are. But it does reveal that same principle found in Romans 2 - that the kind of people we actually ARE matters.

 

[ArmyMatt]

remember too Christ says those who know the Master's will and don't do it, get a harsher beating than those who don't. God never condemns people because of their own ignorance, even though their Judgment Day might be rough.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

remember too Christ says those who know the Master's will and don't do it, get a harsher beating than those who don't. God never condemns people because of their own ignorance, even though their Judgment Day might be rough.

Where did Jesus say that?

 

[Jackson Cooper]

You have to take those quotes in context. They were generally speaking of those who abandoned the Church, and therefore rejected the Gospel, having already received it.

The Church has always understood Scripture, such as Romans 2, to speak of the deeds of people outside to be their own judgement - either accusing or excusing them.

St. Matthew's writing is more about the heart revealed through actions, rather than being a way for pagans to find salvation. It is a warning that we must actually BE Christians, rather than just say we are, and further that it is through our love that we and others can know whose we are. But it does reveal that same principle found in Romans 2 - that the kind of people we actually ARE matters.

And most protestants never abandoned the Church, since they are schisms from other schisms?