But the Qur'an only confirms the Gospel received by Jesus and the Torah received by Moses.“The Jews say: ‘The Christians are not on the right track,’ and the Christians say: "It is the Jews who are not on the right track," yet both read their Holy Books (Torah or Gospel)…” S. 2:113
Examples where Muslims get it wrong include that Jesus did not die on a cross and is not the Son of God which is clearly affirmed in scripture. For example this is what Gabriel said to Mary and this completely contradicts what Muslims believe he told Muhammad
Luke 1:26-28
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
Nonsense. The different schools make no difference whatsoever in a discussion like this. I follow no particular school and no particular person blindly either so you have to give up hoping if someone I trust says something ridiculous, I'll accept it and admit 'Islam is ridiculous'.Which school? Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali... ?
It's far easier to have discussions with people when you know which scholars and which schools they accept the teachings of in the first place..
if you notice this is a problem area this entire thread..
I mean, if you'll never accept a judgement by Ibn Taymiyyah it's easier to know upfront before they go through the trouble of quoting from him, on the other hand if you just love his teachings, it's a good thing for people to know.
Nonsense. The different schools make no difference whatsoever in a discussion like this. I follow no particular school and no particular person blindly either so you have to give up hoping if someone I trust says something ridiculous, I'll accept it and admit 'Islam is ridiculous'.
And? Did you notice I said 'I follow no particular school' ? Did you notice I didn't say 'I don't follow fiqh'?
Again, my evidence is in the Qur'an, even in these very verses that you refer to. They say nothing about and refer on no way to trinity. You just imagine it does because someone told you so. Also, there were Arabs at the time who did worship Mary as well.
They may have burned both but they definitely also burned verses. However, these are manuscripts written by random people. They were told to copy the Qur'an if they wish to copy it, from the original only. They disobeyed and copied from each other. Also these were people from other areas. Why would they be likely to have a copy more correct than those who of the Sahabah?
That's very silly. If someone writes the Bible from memory now and writes parts of it wrong and forgets others and uses the wrong dialect to other parts, would you order mankind to save that copy for eternity to preserve 'history' of the Bible?
I am not able to find sufficient information regarding this hadith to say much about it. It appears to have at least one unreliable narrator. However, the concensus is that there is no verse, not to mention a surah, left out of the Qur'an.
I am not interested in debating about who is right regarding Jesus. We will never get anywhere because I believe in the Qur'an, every word in it. So my position is what it is.
But the Qur'an only confirms the Gospel received by Jesus and the Torah received by Moses.
So what you quoted, for instance, is not the Gospel. And the crucifixion of Jesus is not part of the Gospel.
Yes. You make a claim about the Qur'an, I show you the Qur'an again so you can think it through.Your evidence is the Quran? What?
Exactly. That's what the Qur'an criticises. One interesting thing is that regardless of what the Qur'an would mention it's still correct. Whether the Christians did worship Jesus, Father and holy Spirit or Jesus, Mary and Father, the Qur'an would still be right.Who cares if there are people who worshiped Mary? There are people even nowadays that worship Mary.
That's when you're starting to lose an argument.I am starting to lose patience with you because you are lying and you know you are. You are either lying to me or you are lying to yourself. There is no other explanation.
That's still just three things mentioned, not the trinity.In the chapter 5 of the Quran the trinity is discussed.
Because...... You want it to? Try reading without prejudice and be honest to yourself.Clearly it's referring to the trinity.
Why, did you have someone in mind who would have known better?They didn't burn some copies made by some amateurs
lol.. there are no Muslims who don't follow fiqh and fiqh comes from the various schools.
The scholars which are respected may not be blindly followed, but it helps to give a starting point on ahadith and discussion UNLESS your planning on dismissing any ahadith or point of fiqh that you find problematic in the moment regardless of whether it's widely accepted or not.
which once again is disingenuous and deceptive. You either want to discuss your beliefs with those who are making the attempt to engage with you, or your entire goal is to put lipstick on Islam to make it seem like something it's not.
The Qur'an makes clear the Gospel is the revelation that was sent to Jesus. The gospel as a whole was never written down.The Qur'an never distinguishes the Gospel and Torah in use by Christians at the time with some mythical pure versions of these which have never existed. The evidence trail is very clear we have full versions of the bible from a variety of Christian traditions predating Muhammad. Later Muslims made up the existence of these other texts when they realised with some horror that Muhammad was giving his authority to texts that completely contradicted him.
The Qur'an makes clear the Gospel is the revelation that was sent to Jesus. The gospel as a whole was never written down.
Regarding the Torah it says 'we gave Musa the book'.
You are probably referring to the Gospels. But the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an does not refer to those.The gospel was written down by 4 people who were direct witnesses to Jesus or writing up the testimony of direct first hand witnesses. The direct witness to what Jesus actually revealed contradicts what Muhammad said. God would not be so careless as to lose the true text if it was that important. What is the point of a prophet if his revelation is never revealed?
What do you mean by fiqh? Our Muslim friend accepts hadiths that endorse hating black devil dogs and ardent antisemitism not to mention wife beating and a 90 foot tall Adam and blowing the devil out of your nose 3 times every morning. ( from the absurd hadiths thread). If these are regarded as authoritative ahadith then not sure it matters which school says what as they are all just different shades of crazy.
You are probably referring to the Gospels. But the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an does not refer to those.
This doesn't have to be a text. We know it never was one. It is the revelation given to Jesus.You are dodging the point as Muhammad never differentiated between the widely accepted accounts of Christ's life ( the Gospels,) and some mythical pure text for which there is no evidence at all.
3:48The Qur'an makes clear the Gospel is the revelation that was sent to Jesus. The gospel as a whole was never written down.
Regarding the Torah it says 'we gave Musa the book'.
This doesn't have to be a text. We know it never was one. It is the revelation given to Jesus.
There's many ways of looking at it. First of all, when I say it was never written I mean there has been no such proper book that would have been spread among the people (as far as history knows). But there's no doubt that there used to be more information about the revelation to Jesus. After all, Allah in the Qur'an urged the Christians as well as the Jews to follow their book. If there was literally nothing to follow, He wouldn't have said that. It is agreed that something of the Gospel as well as of the Torah is left in the current books - but so little! And from that little so little can anyone be certain of.I'm sorry, I have to point out the obvious here: if the injil was never a written book, then how on earth do Christians qualify as People of the Book, as the Islamic religion calls us?
Had the people after the 'crucifixion' of Jesus made a sincere effort to preserve the message it would still have been unlikely they would have succeeded if they had not prepared the text while Jesus was still with them or without having some other way of making sure they get it right.
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