Can I come out as an atheist to my family?

[Chinchilla]

It's not that I disagree with God's morals that made me lose faith. I just don't see convincing evidence that Christianity is true, at least not in the way I used to believe.

You don't even know what the gospel is you weren't one to begin with. You just grow up in community practicing Christianity like peope grow up in community practicing Hinduism for example .

When I asked you what does according to Scriptures mean you could not answer .

 

[holo]

You don't even know what the gospel is you weren't one to begin with. You just grow up in community practicing Christianity like peope grow up in community practicing Hinduism for example .

When I asked you what does according to Scriptures mean you could not answer .

Well again, I obviously can't prove to you that I was a true Christian. But like I said, I experienced God pretty much every day, until I began realizing I didn't have good enough reasons to think my experienced were actually supernatural.

I guess "according to scripture" means just that - that something is according to scripture. Like if I say that Jesus rose from the dead, that would be according to scripture, because that's what the bible says. What's your point?

 

[holo]

You don't even know what the gospel is

I see that Christians often disagree on exactly what the gospel is. But the way I understand it, it's that God dealt with sin once and for all on the cross, and that everyone is free to accept his grace by faith. That Christ was crucified for the sins of mankind and that he rose from the dead and is the son of God and that there is salvation in no other. (There was a period when I believed we would also have to do certain things in addition to faith, in order to be saved, but I changed my mind on that during my time as a believer.)

Is that basically in line with what you think the gospel is?

 

[Chinchilla]

I guess "according to scripture" means just that - that something is according to scripture. Like if I say that Jesus rose from the dead, that would be according to scripture, because that's what the bible says. What's your point?

The point is the true Jesus said many will come in his name / his authority / use his name to deceive many , there are folks who preach different gospel and different Jesus or even calling themselves a Jesus / prophet .

I'm not sure if you were lied to and followed the different Jesus or simply did not believe at all but grown up in Christian community so you did like people around you , likewise would do muslim growing in community of muslims .

The real Jesus came to fulfill Scriptures , meaning fulfill the prophecy of him spoken by 30-40 prophets over 4000 years prior to his comming , validating not only himself but also God and the rest of Scriptures which prophets said , if he did not come at such appointed time exactly then they told he would come he would be simply imaginary story guy from some book which we wouldn't even be able to tell if he was even real or if the story was made up ages after .

You can't fake being born in certain city or during certain time , can't bribe your father to be born at appointed time in such matching things.


It might be you were never told the reason.
One could deny the OT as having prophecy to get rid of such argument , do you deny that God cannot have foreknowledge if he exist ?

 

[Chinchilla]

I see that Christians often disagree on exactly what the gospel is. But the way I understand it, it's that God dealt with sin once and for all on the cross, and that everyone is free to accept his grace by faith. That Christ was crucified for the sins of mankind and that he rose from the dead and is the son of God and that there is salvation in no other. (There was a period when I believed we would also have to do certain things in addition to faith, in order to be saved, but I changed my mind on that during my time as a believer.)

Is that basically in line with what you think the gospel is?

Yea , well if you believed it once you are still Christian . It could be actually a good experiment to see if you come back to faith or not .
Come back to forums in 5-10 years and tell us if you are still agnostic .
My bet is you will .

 

[holo]

The point is the true Jesus said many will come in his name / his authority / use his name to deceive many , there are folks who preach different gospel and different Jesus or even calling themselves a Jesus / prophet .

Well he was certainly right about that part

I'm not sure if you were lied to and followed the different Jesus or simply did not believe at all but grown up in Christian community so you did like people around you , likewise would do muslim growing in community of muslims .

Of course it's possible that I never had a true experience of God, and you did. And that if I had had your experience, it would be impossible for me to lose faith. In that case I have no idea what it would be like to actually believe.

It might be you were never told the reason.
One could deny the OT as having prophecy to get rid of such argument , do you deny that God cannot have foreknowledge if he exist ?

I assume that God would have foreknowledge if he exists, I'm just not convinced the bible is true and trustworthy in what it says about God. To me it seems more plausible that it was written by ordinary people, just like the countless other religious scriptures.

 

[holo]

Yea , well if you believed it once you are still Christian . It could be actually a good experiment to see if you come back to faith or not .
Come back to forums in 5-10 years and tell us if you are still agnostic .
My bet is you will .

Yes, I see that some Christians believe in once saved, always saved, and others believe you can lose salvation. I'm not sure which position is most in line with the bible.

I hope I'll believe again one day.

 

[akaDaScribe]

Yes, I would very much like to know the truth.

Well, maybe I don't. If the truth is that God hates us all and is going to torture us forever because we don't keep the sabbath or something crazy like that, I'm not sure I would want to know. But I assume that what you believe is true is good news
So tell me about your path!

Hi Holo,

Your response was very important. Be ready for the truth regardless of what it is. Be willing to accept the truth even if you don’t like it. Understand that this is the risk you take to relentlessly seek the truth.

For me, it was the only way to not hold back. If my family was wrong, my family was wrong. If everything I had been told was a lie, everything I had been told was a lie. It’s ok to fear the truth, but be willing to put those fears to the side. I am pointing this out because I was hungry enough for the truth to go all out and I’m not sure to what degree it had an impact on the results.

The process I went through was not complicated, but it was not easy. It requires will and resolve. Still up for it?

I wrote a poem/lyrics regarding this:

Are you looking for the truth?
Or just answers that work for you?
When you find it, what ya gonna do?
Then you can't claim you never knew.

 

[AnnaDeborah]

I believe it's mostly coincidence or some sort of cold reading (perhaps unconscious). I hear about these things all the time. I know from experience that we tend to exaggerate and see meaning in coincidences.

But it's not like I can hear some story and be the judge of whether or not it was God. I just don't know.

I think you have a greater faith than I do! If someone hears a voice directing them to a particular spot, where they will find a specific person waiting for them, and then they go and find a person matching that exact description who has been told to wait there for someone matching their exact description, I think it's amazing, but God can do anything. I'd have to have much more faith that two total strangers could 'by coincidence' have matching dreams that end up with the same result!

 

[Neostarwcc]

I don't think they'd be able to help me get my faith back. I don't think they're at all prepared to answer the questions and doubts I have. They'll probably think I haven't actually lost faith, but rather that I'm revolting against God and not wanting to believe because it carries a cost. They're very much in the the-end-is-near and many-will-lose-their-faith camp. I'm sure they'll see this whole thing as a matter of the devil trying to trick me, rather than a matter of me simply not being convinced anymore.

I see your point. I mean I could tell you until I'm blue in the face that it is the devil trying to trick you but let's not go there. Instead I just hope you someday will find your faith again. Especially when you said it made you so happy. Like I said I've been praying for you. Hopefully something will come from those prayers! You can never underestimate the power of prayer. I've seen prayer do miraculous things.

 

[akaDaScribe]

I hate that I have had to say that, makes me cringe Oh what a mess we have!

Luke 5:37-39 says it perfectly.

Please explain.
If Jesus says He is the truth, how can salvation be more important than the truth?

 

[Serving Zion]

Please explain.
If Jesus says He is the truth, how can salvation be more important than the truth?

Those who trust in Jesus although not knowing Him, have not ever seen His form or recognised His voice. This is because their belief system has prevented their ability to open their eyes and ears to Him, that they would turn to Him and be healed.

Yet their faith is absolute, they will die before they renounce Jesus Christ. The only thing that keeps them fixed in faith is their ignorance of the truth, that is most likely the result of bad education.

It is written that a man shall die once and face judgement, so then they see Jesus for who He is and are judged for the things they did while in body. It is by faith we are saved, and Jesus said it is better that we not cause a little one to stumble.

Paul said similarly that the weaker brother who sees the stronger brother eating in an idols temple would be emboldened to do likewise, despite it being sin. Then, the weaker brother is destroyed by the stronger brother's knowledge.

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up, and the reason for saying this is that love is holy spirit serving each others need, whereas knowledge is a selfish desire to see another grow. A person who shakes a brother's faith because he knows that his brother is blind, may be guilty for causing doubt to the eventual detriment of that one's salvation where in absence of the selfish teacher, the weaker brother would have safely been delivered to salvation in a state of faith according to God's plan.

This is why we are warned by James 3:1 and Matthew 12:36.

 

[akaDaScribe]

Those who trust in Jesus although not knowing Him, have not ever seen His form or recognised His voice. This is because their belief system has prevented their ability to open their eyes and ears to Him, that they would turn to Him and be healed.

Yet their faith is absolute, they will die before they renounce Jesus Christ. The only thing that keeps them fixed in faith is their ignorance of the truth, that is most likely the result of bad education.

It is written that a man shall die once and face judgement, so then they see Jesus for who He is and are judged for the things they did while in body. It is by faith we are saved, and Jesus said it is better that we not cause a little one to stumble.

Paul said similarly that the weaker brother who sees the stronger brother eating in an idols temple would be emboldened to do likewise, despite it being sin. Then, the weaker brother is destroyed by the stronger brother's knowledge.

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up, and the reason for saying this is that love is holy spirit serving each others need, whereas knowledge is a selfish desire to see another grow. A person who shakes a brother's faith because he knows that his brother is blind, may be guilty for causing doubt to the eventual detriment of that one's salvation where in absence of the selfish teacher, the weaker brother would have safely been delivered to salvation in a state of faith according to God's plan.

This is why we are warned by James 3:1 and Matthew 12:36.

When I went back and looked at the earlier post, I just realized you were referring to Holo telling his parent the truth about his beliefs. I thought you were talking about the truth differently.

 

[Dirk1540]

Of course it's possible that I never had a true experience of God, and you did. And that if I had had your experience, it would be impossible for me to lose faith.

In my experience the funny thing about having God experiences, and going in & out of faith a bunch of times, was that when you’re in the God experience it all makes complete sense you, and you actually say to yourself “How did I possibly forget this undeniable feeling?”

Then when the experience is behind you you easily rationalize the experience away...then you regain faith sometime later and you’re in the God experience once again and think “Was I an idiot to forget how convincing this feeling was??”...and the cycle repeats about 1,000 times lol. This to me confirms the concept of mysticism, a belief that the spiritual apprehension of ‘Knowledge’ is actually beyond the intellect.

(Although I’m not writing off the intellectual part, but I definitely see it as a combination of both)

 

[Serving Zion]

When I went back and looked at the earlier post, I just realized you were referring to Holo telling his parent the truth about his beliefs. I thought you were talking about the truth differently.

Thanks for suggesting the clarification! .. Yes, I am not suggesting that all who have a faith in Jesus also have salvation, but that some who have saving faith are also innocently deceived.

The defining factor is whether Jesus judges that they are innocent in having believed an error. This is evident in a person's spiritual state of sanctity.

Either way though, one who is deceived has not received sufficient truth to be set free, they are still slaves to sin. Jesus said a slave doesn't abide in the house forever, and if the son makes him free, he will indeed be free.

 

[holo]

The process I went through was not complicated, but it was not easy. It requires will and resolve. Still up for it?

Haha, enough with the disclaimers! Show me!

 

[holo]

I think you have a greater faith than I do! If someone hears a voice directing them to a particular spot, where they will find a specific person waiting for them, and then they go and find a person matching that exact description who has been told to wait there for someone matching their exact description, I think it's amazing, but God can do anything. I'd have to have much more faith that two total strangers could 'by coincidence' have matching dreams that end up with the same result!

I know, but Christianity isn't the only worldview with seemingly inexplicable things happening. I can't build a faith on what others claim to have seen or experienced.

 

[holo]

I see your point. I mean I could tell you until I'm blue in the face that it is the devil trying to trick you but let's not go there. Instead I just hope you someday will find your faith again. Especially when you said it made you so happy. Like I said I've been praying for you. Hopefully something will come from those prayers! You can never underestimate the power of prayer. I've seen prayer do miraculous things.

One good thing about losing faith is that I think I've become more aware of what's really important: love. I know it's a cliche, but it's true. And I think Christians often forget that. I know used to.

1 Corinthians 13:2-3
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

I think that's a pretty radical thing to say, and if anything in the bible is literally true, it's this. I've often prayed, and still do sometimes, to have this love he's talking about. Faith comes second, but that's what I tend to get caught up in. I could figure God all out and get all the doctrine right, but what good is it if I ignore the poor and starving?

 

[akaDaScribe]

Haha, enough with the disclaimers! Show me!

Hi Holo,

When I decided to find out whether or not God is real, I realized that to do that I would have to find Him. I also realized that I would not be the first person who tried to find God. Many have tried and failed. I already knew that I could not find God from science because no one has been able to prove or disprove God by science and I didn’t think that I was such a brilliant scientist that I could prove what has never been proven. It became clear to me that the only way I could know God is real is if God reveals himself to me.

I was determined to go through all religions if necessary searching for God or whatever truth there was and if I reached the end of the road, then I would know there is nothing.

I decided to start with Christianity because it made sense to me to start there since it was what prompted me to seek the truth in the first place. Understanding that the only way I could know God is real is if He revealed Himself to me, I did the only thing I could do. I asked him to reveal Himself to me. I told him that I understood that blessed are those who have not seen and believed, but I guess I’m not blessed because I need to see. The thing is, I did not ask like God owed me something or like I deserved it. It was more like, I don’t know what else to do and you know my heart, and if you don’t reveal yourself, I know I can’t blame you or anything, but I guess I won’t make it. So it wasn’t a threat or anything, but more like just presenting the situation.

I was also determined to give honest pursuit and push hard enough that I would know I really did all I could do. I had taken that week off already and so I had plenty of time. I don’t remember which things happened when, but they were all around the same time. I spent a lot of time just being still and waiting to hear from God. At the same time, I began to read the Bible.

But when I read the Bible, I read it differently than I ever did before. I read the Bible like I had found some ancient book that I had never heard of. I wiped out/ laid to the side, everything I had been taught and just read it for what it says. I did not consider all of the theology I had been taught. It was just me and the book and I allowed myself to simply read it and draw my own conclusions based on what it said. At the same time I made no effort to draw conclusions but just took in what it said and let it just be what it is.

I don’t want to discuss what happened with you too much yet because I don’t want to tarnish your own first impressions, but I will say that at one point during the reading (and I did a lot of reading over a short period of time) something clicked and it was like oh sh—this guy is real! Not long after that crazy things started to happen. But again, we’ll talk about that later. lol

I’m not sure if this is making sense to you or not, but this was the beginning of my journey. It’s very hard to express my state of mind, but I hope I explained it well enough to be clear. So it was 3 things really. Making a sincere plea, being willing to be a fool waiting around expecting to hear from God, and reading with an open mind. But the depth and disposition of my heart and mind cannot be emphasized enough.

I hope you try it and I hope you keep me posted how it is going as you progress. One thing though. Don’t ask people questions about what you are reading or look for outside opinions. Not forever, but during this process. This is between you and God and no one else.

 

[AnnaDeborah]

I could figure God all out and get all the doctrine right, but what good is it if I ignore the poor and starving?

That's why Matthew 25 talks about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison...not because we do these things to be saved, but because they are what we will do if we are the Lord's.