Can I ask a question about Fornication?

[Khalliqa]

The easiest solution to me, is to first be in a relationship for a while to determine how compatible you are personality wise, and once it is determined that you are compatible in terms of personality and would like the relationship to hopefully go somewhere, to try physical intimacy.

For some people, physical intimacy can be painful (some men and women are unfortunate and have that response to sex in general), but unless it is a chronic issue with one or both partners, I see no reason that it could never be reconciled, or even that it need to be a relationship ender. My fiance and I haven't had much luck in terms of sexual intimacy, for reasons I will not get into, but even if we never end up having sex, I can't imagine spending my life with anyone else.

Here's the thing and something that perplexes me about this issue. I will admit that I grew up thinking that being equally yoked and committed would cure or be things that assist with any reasonable loving couple overcoming differences but I've met far too many people for whom that simply is not the case. I'm ruling out personality, loyalty and determination because those are not indicators for sexual fulfillment or compatibility. I don't have a study though I'm going purely based off my experience as a pseudo counselor of women. The stories were too frequent to ignore. We even developed a phrase called "obligation sex" where you love your partner dearly but you have just accepted that you won't ever have pleasure physically. At the time it was not a big deal but as I age the question did come back.. Why are we accepting of this? Why is that okay? And if it's not okay are we saying that we need to explore before marriage? And if we say that what are the consequences? Or is there an alternative way of looking at this?

Here is what I know that pain and discomfort are not uncommon complaints by women which they and their SO try to work on.. they of course go through counseling and try aids to assist but pain and discomfort remain on some level. and it's weird because WHY? lol I'm sorry to laugh but it's kind of sad and ridiculous that this is OK that our only solution is to just go try out different men.. that can't be it..

Plus some sex counselors are perverted.. :-/ and then the biggest hurdle is $$$$ who has extra coins to go figure this out.. and that's the best of us.. the worst of us just cheat and the saddest of us just accept being unfulfilled.

HEre's another twist in college there were many women who were proudly active.. when I attend reunions they are almost all married and ashamed of their past.. all of the hubris and ego hid STDs .. emotional scars.. lies they told themselves about not being attached etc.. and general emotional scarring from minor to severe..

I feel I'm back at square one.. :-/

I do believe that there are a percentage of people who WILL work through whatever problems they face sexual or otherwise because they are well matched..

wait..

maybe my question is really why our society does not consider these things and address compatibility and all its facets.. hmmm kk lemme think on it some more

 

[Rebecca12]

OK, I was young when the sexual revolution was at its height. Before HIV/Aids. I know many people who had sex before marriage with a number of partners. They ended up married. The people I know aren't ashamed of their past. I am not. My husband is not. I do not think every decision I made was a good one, but I don't expect every decision I make to be good. There is no shame in imperfection.

Sexual compatibility is important. Some people like a lot of sex. Some do not. Some are more adventurous than others. Some have physical problems. Some have problems with monogamy. Some can't imagine any other way. Some are considerate of their partner's needs. Others are not. Some can talk about sex, others can barely mention it. You don't really know if you are compatible until you know. If you have compatibility issues you either work them out, live with it, or split. Whether you are married or not married. And time changes things. People develop health issues or other issues, which can lead to having sex problems many years into a relationship. If there is love and respect and you can talk about sex it can help take you through those difficulties. People can have trouble working through sex issues because we have trouble talking about sex. Maybe if we were more matter of fact about sex we would have less problems.

 

[Rebecca12]

I don't have a study though I'm going purely based off my experience as a pseudo counselor of women.

What is a pseudo counselor of women?

 

[Khalliqa]

What is a pseudo counselor of women?

I was a go-to person for listening to married women's problems years ago in my community. I did not have any training and was simply advising based on my sensibilities. Some of those women could have benefited from professional counseling but couldn't afford it and I did not know where to send them. Had I been a real professional I'm sure I would have known more and been able to competently make recommendations. Hence my self-described pseudo-counselor title.

 

[Khalliqa]

OK, I was young when the sexual revolution was at its height. Before HIV/Aids. I know many people who had sex before marriage with a number of partners. They ended up married. The people I know aren't ashamed of their past. I am not. My husband is not. I do not think every decision I made was a good one, but I don't expect every decision I make to be good. There is no shame in imperfection.

Sexual compatibility is important. Some people like a lot of sex. Some do not. Some are more adventurous than others. Some have physical problems. Some have problems with monogamy. Some can't imagine any other way. Some are considerate of their partner's needs. Others are not. Some can talk about sex, others can barely mention it. You don't really know if you are compatible until you know. If you have compatibility issues you either work them out, live with it, or split. Whether you are married or not married. And time changes things. People develop health issues or other issues, which can lead to having sex problems many years into a relationship. If there is love and respect and you can talk about sex it can help take you through those difficulties. People can have trouble working through sex issues because we have trouble talking about sex. Maybe if we were more matter of fact about sex we would have less problems.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I definitely think just being able to talk about sex in a way that's not constricted is important. I do think that's part of the problem. But talking about it to someone who is best suited to guide you through decisions snd talking with your SO is not a part of this culture.

So we wing it and some come out unscathed and others not so much. I have more experience with the latter than the former.

Similar to choosing a mate our relationships define us shape us among other things and I would like to get closer to refining the process rather than accepting the status quo.

Many people form their values and expectations about sex from family ,peers, media, and religious communities ... the latter being the body which judges and the former being the bodies which influence. Religious communities tend to place emphasis on abstinence as the best and only choice to make before marriage and shame if we have sex before marriage in order to help us make better choices.

I don't think either of those choices are best for many of the reasons given already.

I don't think perfection will exist but I'd like to get closer to better matches. While you seem decently adjusted many are not. The key to that is not just giving the options but determining where our adjustments break down.

I'm motivated by my experiences and I empathize with women who are scathed by their choices. They are fully functioning otherwise but retain internal scars.

in some societies rigid and controlled sexual exploration is encouraged and in others rigid abstinence is practiced. All other communal characteristics are NOT the same so a comparison can't be made but observation of the outcome can at least be evaluated for what it is -potential benefits and pitfalls. That's what I'm looking at now

 

[little1]

The tragedy of our sex-saturated culture is that it says too little about sex, not too much. What it does say is often twisted because it cheapens and undervalues the body and sex. This belittling of God’s gift is concealed behind the façade of immodesty, inappropriate contentography, public nudity and promiscuousness.
The negative, repressive approach to human sexuality (that could be what you are describing in the church??) led to an inadequate “don’t do it” or “how far can I go” legalism that led many Christians to jettison the traditional Christian teaching on sex.

so the late pope John Paul the 2nd wrote a book. its kind of to difficult to understand but you can get versions for teens that are better in my opinion unless you are an academic?

The human body, according to John Paul II, innately contains a nuptial (marital, spousal) meaning. He teaches that the sexual differences between males and females express a complimentary call to union and communion in life-giving, self-donating love. In this relationship the hidden mystery of God’s inner life is revealed, namely, the eternal loving self-giving of the Persons of the Trinity. This idea is already revealed in the Old Testament.
In the Old Testament God describes his love for his people as the love of a husband for his wife. Infidelity is called adultery (Jer 3:8; 9:2; 23:10; Ezek 23:37; Hos 7:4). In the New Testament Jesus assumes human nature as a male because he is the heavenly bridegroom (Jn 3:24) fulfilling the spousal analogy of the Old Testament as he lays down his life for his bride (Eph 5:25).

Faithfully living the marriage analogy is vital to human destiny. Men are called to become a faithful bridegroom who makes the gift of his fidelity to his bride by his willingness to lay down his life for her. Women are called to accept this gift into herself and to reciprocate with the gift of herself in surrendering love. These complimentary roles are not a question of assertiveness on the one hand, and passivity on the other, but one of giving and receiving in reciprocal love. In the very giving of the gift to his wife a husband simultaneously receives her gift. In the receiving of the gift of the bridegroom, the bride returns the gift of herself.
God is the initiator of this self-giving because he is the creator. He freely gives us His life and love. In our relationship to God, both men and women assume the role of the bride as we receive His gift and are called to surrender ourselves to Him.

umm obviously I copied and pasted that. I just think its important to remember that sex is deeply spiritual. you give part of yourself away

but I do hear w the OP is trying to figger out. luckily I didn't know enough about sex before I was married so I never worried about such things. I only just found out then that sometimes it doesn't work? my partner and I are friends first so it wouldn't matter but still that's awful I'm glad I never new

 

[~Anastasia~]

:-( I hope all goes well and you bounce back and recover well..

Thank you. I'm home now, and trying to deal with everything.

I actually have a lot of thoughts on some aspects of this topic, and agree with several things said here. I do think that we don't talk enough about it in ways that are actually helpful. Between my own issues, and those of others that I've been made aware of and talked with them, and decades of thinking through it from a Christian perspective, I've managed to learn some, but I still question what is beyond my experience.

I think we have a very unhealthy view of sexual activity in the US (and many similar) cultures. I think if we approached it as more of a pure and blessed thing, to be protected, giving to one another and considering one another, and less concerned with selfish desire for physical pleasure .... I think as a result it would be possible to experience much more physical pleasure and far less emotional problems at the same time.

But I'm not willing to openly discuss the details of my own or reveal those of anyone else in a public forum. I know of no open and detailed discussions that would help. There is teaching of our Tradition on marriage and intimacy that has been helpful (and not just any historic figure can be trusted in this as some had their own issues in being very anti-sex even in marriage, which is not healthy, IMO).

But I honestly believe all of the physical "testing" that is supposed to lead people to discover compatibility and things about themselves actually risks introducing other problems at the same time. Especially where lack of trust and putting the other first come into play, this can damage both physical ability to enjoy sexual activity as well as emotional aspects.

I think we would be better off to be more open with discussion and information, and more reserved with physical experimentation. I think this would pay off in the end in every aspect under consideration.

 

[Sketcher]

Big Minus of abstinence before marriage:

1. Personality, skies and emotional compatibility does not guarantee physical compatibility. If there is an incompatibility you're stuck with this physically incompatible person for the rest of your life. What if size causes pain? What if counseling etc don't work?
Do you settle for an orgasmles, painful or Very seldom having an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] for the rest of your life? You will only know for sure if you have intercourse.

Physical challenges such as the ones you are mentioning seem to be treatable through therapy (we are talking about making things more comfortable for an elastic organ that stretches to birth a baby, after all). There is also lube available if needed.

 

[Sketcher]

The problem of otherwise happy couples having sexual problems exists. I'm not seeking to help any one couple. I'm questioning society's guidance regarding our sexual behavior.

It seems to me that sexual activity outside of marriage creates most if not all of those problems. When you get married to someone, you only have to get used to that other person, and what that other person likes. If you picked up a taste for sexual activity that is distasteful to them before you married them, you gave yourself that problem when you were out sowing your wild oats.

Is it wise to tell a young girl to "fornicate" to find out about her needs and wants and sentence her potentially to a life of sexual frivolity and lack of sexual discipline?

I can't say that it is wise, because she is more likely to put her in situations where she is more vulnerable to rape. Unfortunately, that happened to a relative of my sister in law. She was encouraged by her parents to get out there and discover herself sexually while dating. That has been her practice, and one night she unfortunately experienced date rape. It can happen to anybody, but the more risks you take, the more likely a problem is to occur.

Is it wise to tell men to look for chaste women thereby shunning women who are not but may be better suited for him? And possibly creating an unfair caste system?

I'm not sure what you mean by "unfair caste system." I for one don't believe that it's OK for men to have sex outside of marriage, but not for women. I believe both should keep sex within marriage. That's what I would prefer to see taught.

Is it wise to tell men that a woman who doesn't put out is not worth your time and is immature?

Nope.

Is it wise to tell a married couple that are probably better as friends than lovers to just keep sticking through it for the rest of their lives?

I'd prefer to emphasize talking about important issues before marriage combined with realistic self-assessment. And after marriage, an emphasis on working things out, whether they be physical or otherwise.

Is it wise to encourage open relationships? Why or why not? What are the risks? benefits? likelihoods etc..

I don't believe open relationships should be pushed on anybody, people are more likely to get hurt that way.

 

[Khalliqa]

Thank you. I'm home now, and trying to deal with everything.

I actually have a lot of thoughts on some aspects of this topic, and agree with several things said here. I do think that we don't talk enough about it in ways that are actually helpful. Between my own issues, and those of others that I've been made aware of and talked with them, and decades of thinking through it from a Christian perspective, I've managed to learn some, but I still question what is beyond my experience.

I think we have a very unhealthy view of sexual activity in the US (and many similar) cultures. I think if we approached it as more of a pure and blessed thing, to be protected, giving to one another and considering one another, and less concerned with selfish desire for physical pleasure .... I think as a result it would be possible to experience much more physical pleasure and far less emotional problems at the same time.

But I'm not willing to openly discuss the details of my own or reveal those of anyone else in a public forum. I know of no open and detailed discussions that would help. There is teaching of our Tradition on marriage and intimacy that has been helpful (and not just any historic figure can be trusted in this as some had their own issues in being very anti-sex even in marriage, which is not healthy, IMO).

But I honestly believe all of the physical "testing" that is supposed to lead people to discover compatibility and things about themselves actually risks introducing other problems at the same time. Especially where lack of trust and putting the other first come into play, this can damage both physical ability to enjoy sexual activity as well as emotional aspects.

I think we would be better off to be more open with discussion and information, and more reserved with physical experimentation. I think this would pay off in the end in every aspect under consideration.

I did not assume anyone would nor request anyone to reveal their personal business..
I think each road has risks and consequences.. as well as benefits..

 

[Khalliqa]

Physical challenges such as the ones you are mentioning seem to be treatable through therapy (we are talking about making things more comfortable for an elastic organ that stretches to birth a baby, after all). There is also lube available if needed.

The problem with therapy.. is that even with a loving and willing couple it is not financially or sometimes geographically accessible to many people and there is just as much trial and error involved with finding a good therapist... who fits the goals and comfort level of the couple

 

[Khalliqa]

It seems to me that sexual activity outside of marriage creates most if not all of those problems. When you get married to someone, you only have to get used to that other person, and what that other person likes. If you picked up a taste for sexual activity that is distasteful to them before you married them, you gave yourself that problem when you were out sowing your wild oats.


I can't say that it is wise, because she is more likely to put her in situations where she is more vulnerable to rape. Unfortunately, that happened to a relative of my sister in law. She was encouraged by her parents to get out there and discover herself sexually while dating. That has been her practice, and one night she unfortunately experienced date rape. It can happen to anybody, but the more risks you take, the more likely a problem is to occur.


I'm not sure what you mean by "unfair caste system." I for one don't believe that it's OK for men to have sex outside of marriage, but not for women. I believe both should keep sex within marriage. That's what I would prefer to see taught.


Nope.


I'd prefer to emphasize talking about important issues before marriage combined with realistic self-assessment. And after marriage, an emphasis on working things out, whether they be physical or otherwise.


I don't believe open relationships should be pushed on anybody, people are more likely to get hurt that way.

Unfortunately, my experience - in reality- has not matched the commonly held views you are espousing.

There is an unwritten caste system that a woman who has never had sex is more virtuous or moral than one who is not.. but that tends to be held by certain mindsets and is not the norm.. unfortunately the norm is equally unfortunate in that a woman who has not had sexual experience is not worth the time to teach etc.. and would not make a compatible mate.. I've heard both passionately asserted and both set up a ranking of worth regarding women in the minds of these men

 

[~Anastasia~]

"Not worth the time to teach" ...

Most would think those were REALLY skewed values. I know the way others think do have an effect on us, but IMO it's much healthier to have a certain opinion of yourself and value that.

Whatever the question may be, there will usually be some who see it differently. It seems better to me to place no value on the opinions of anyone who would view you (generally you, not personally you) as worthless.

Every person is valuable.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I did not assume anyone would nor request anyone to reveal their personal business..
I think each road has risks and consequences.. as well as benefits..

No, I didn't mean that you had asked anyone to. I simply meant that discussion is necessarily on a surface level as a result. And gave my opinions, based on my experiences and that of others. Also as a Christian, I have the understanding that the basic instructions for how life should be lived set forth by God are for our benefit, which I realize not everyone will consider. But we do have theology within our Tradition that explores these aspects rather deeply.

 

[Sketcher]

The problem with therapy.. is that even with a loving and willing couple it is not financially or sometimes geographically accessible to many people and there is just as much trial and error involved with finding a good therapist... who fits the goals and comfort level of the couple

You're thinking of small towns in remote areas, right? If you are, the alternative seems to be people sleeping around until they've found their match. I don't think it's good to have a small town where not only everybody knows everybody, but everybody in a generation has slept together at one point or another.

Unfortunately, my experience - in reality- has not matched the commonly held views you are espousing.

There is an unwritten caste system that a woman who has never had sex is more virtuous or moral than one who is not.. but that tends to be held by certain mindsets and is not the norm.. unfortunately the norm is equally unfortunate in that a woman who has not had sexual experience is not worth the time to teach etc.. and would not make a compatible mate.. I've heard both passionately asserted and both set up a ranking of worth regarding women in the minds of these men

Two bad choices don't have to be what the culture chooses as THE choice.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Unfortunately, my experience - in reality- has not matched the commonly held views you are espousing.

There is an unwritten caste system that a woman who has never had sex is more virtuous or moral than one who is not.. but that tends to be held by certain mindsets and is not the norm.. unfortunately the norm is equally unfortunate in that a woman who has not had sexual experience is not worth the time to teach etc.. and would not make a compatible mate.. I've heard both passionately asserted and both set up a ranking of worth regarding women in the minds of these men

Wow. Those are some screwy minded men ...

 

[Khalliqa]

Wow. Those are some screwy minded men ...

Once a person reaches a point of hmmm "wisdom" in a certain area.. society will reveal itself to be screwy in general...

 

[Dave-W]

It seems to me that sexual activity outside of marriage creates most if not all of those problems.

Have you read any of the blogs and articles of people who were raised and followed scrupulously the "Purity Culture" as described by Joshua Harris in "I Kissed Dating Goodbye?"

It made more problems than it solved IMO.

"I love you; but I wish sex would just go away."

"I went 10 years with nothing [sexual] before we got married, and I can go another 10 years starting right now."

When you get married to someone, you only have to get used to that other person, and what that other person likes.

And if that person "likes" no sex at all?

If you picked up a taste for sexual activity that is distasteful to them before you married them, you gave yourself that problem when you were out sowing your wild oats.

With this sex-saturated society you can read about or hear of all kinds of sexual activities without ever having experienced it. News stories. Movie trailers. Magazine headlines on a news stand.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Once a person reaches a point of hmmm "wisdom" in a certain area.. society will reveal itself to be screwy in general...

Yeah....it's just that the idea of a double-sexual standard among men (something I learned about when I took my "Sexuality in American History" class at the university) seems strange to me, and was not something I picked up from the Bible when I was first introduced to it.

If anything, my impression from the New Testament ethic was that I, as a man, should find one woman and stick with her through thick and thin as best I can. In fact, the New Testament notion is phrased as, "lay down your life for her."

To me, it doesn't sound like the 'double standard' originated with Jesus' wisdom, but came from some other kind of ... "wisdom."

 

[Khalliqa]

Yeah....it's just that the idea of a double-sexual standard among men (something I learned about when I took my "Sexuality in American History" class at the university) seems strange to me, and was not something I picked up from the Bible when I was first introduced to it.

If anything, my impression from the New Testament ethic was that I, as a man, should find one woman and stick with her through thick and thin as best I can. In fact, the New Testament notion is phrased as, "lay down your life for her."

To me, it doesn't sound like the 'double standard' originated with Jesus' wisdom, but came from some other kind of ... "wisdom."

I see. Is the bible the only exposure you've had regarding monogamy and marriage?

By wisdom.. I was taking your specific statement about men and essentially saying that when a person matures in any area you'll find those who have not matured in a certain area to seem "off" or "screwy" this is true for both genders and not just in the area of intimacy.

I see/think in fundamental principles so, occasionally, my mind tends to drift on how a principle can have multiple applications.