Can I ask a question about Fornication?

[Khalliqa]

This is not a Christian or even a theist v. atheist question. It's a moral value question that is held or not held by many irrespective of their belief in god.

But I don't know where to pose the question to talk about it.

It was sparked by a question in the Life Stages Forum. I thought about putting it there but it didn't seem appropriate because the person was seeking personal advice.

My question is something I've wrestled with and want to discuss as an ethical question.

But is this the forum?

Members? mods? Please advise.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You should be ok asking it as a question here, and there being a degree of debate, though promotion of certain activities might be against forum rules.

 

[Khalliqa]

Thank you.

Not sure how you get around it if you think that though.

My question:

Not sure whether -on average- it's best (not right or good) to abstain or indulge

Big Minus of abstinence before marriage:

1. Personality, skies and emotional compatibility does not guarantee physical compatibility. If there is an incompatibility you're stuck with this physically incompatible person for the rest of your life. What if size causes pain? What if counseling etc don't work?
Do you settle for an orgasmles, painful or Very seldom having an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] for the rest of your life? You will only know for sure if you have intercourse.


Big Minus of fornication:

1. physical intimacy -can and often does - cloud one's assessment of the more lasting sustaining compatible parts of the relationship

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah, I see.

Well, what comes to mind is that such "trials" regarding physical compatibility don't appear to be necessary in 99.9% of cases, historically. The way humans are made, physical compatibility is rarely a problem. I know of one case, but that involved an unusual individual. If people are simply aware of what is within normal range, they could often be reassured on that count. I suppose one's physician could be consulted, if one is unsure.

You are correct in listing the minus, but there are others, and probably ones we do not know of yet.

Physical intimacy affects us on a biological level. Increased numbers of partners are associated even with increased cancers developing. I suspect we don't know the real full impact from a biological point of view.

There are emotional issues too - comparing one person with another, jealousy issues, so much more.

And if you mean to exclude the idea of multiple partners - as in this is the one I intend to marry ... then why not follow the course of marrying first anyway? The only reason not to is to consider this as some sort of trial that will determine if one marries, which DOES bring the potential for other partners into the picture.

This is just the first thoughts I've had, based on your post. Others may be able to offer more.

 

[~Anastasia~]

TO ALL READING/POSTING:

I think you are fine in discussing reasons not to have premarital intercourse, but if it were to become a debate, that could easily move into promotion of premarital intercourse, which is against forum rules, so I ask future posters in this thread to keep that in mind.

 

[Khalliqa]

Ah I see so - you'll have to forgive me there are a lot of rules for the forums and within each forum. Is the rule essentially we can never express that we may be in favor of the idea of fornication on the board? I need to know because I'm wrestling with this question for many reasons and if the answer HAS to be never fornicate then my question wouldn't be the place to seek an objective opinion. I could care less either way but I don't want to go down a road where an option is removed that might be better.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah I see so - you'll have to forgive me there are a lot of rules for the forums and within each forum. Is the rule essentially we can never express that we may be in favor of the idea of fornication on the board? I need to know because I'm wrestling with this question for many reasons and if the answer HAS to be never fornicate then my question wouldn't be the place to seek an objective opinion. I could care less either way but I don't want to go down a road where an option is removed that might be better.

Let me do some checking, and I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[Larniavc]

Thank you.

Not sure how you get around it if you think that though.

My question:

Not sure whether -on average- it's best (not right or good) to abstain or indulge

Big Minus of abstinence before marriage:

1. Personality, skies and emotional compatibility does not guarantee physical compatibility. If there is an incompatibility you're stuck with this physically incompatible person for the rest of your life. What if size causes pain? What if counseling etc don't work?
Do you settle for an orgasmles, painful or Very seldom having an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] for the rest of your life? You will only know for sure if you have intercourse.


Big Minus of fornication:

1. physical intimacy -can and often does - cloud one's assessment of the more lasting sustaining compatible parts of the relationship

I think that as long as you're of a similar mindset to your partner on this issue you'll probably be alright.

Like many things, personal clashes will cause increasingly significant problem as time goes on.

 

[Khalliqa]

I think that as long as you're of a similar mindset to your partner on this issue you'll probably be alright.

Like many things, personal clashes will cause increasingly significant problem as time goes on.

That's the thing Being of similar mind means nothing if you're trying to solve the problem and have no answer.

You can both agree to counseling

Both agree to work through it

Both agree to seek medical help

Both agree to do a lot of things but if that's not producing results you have a real problem on your hands.

I'm not sure if this is an isolated rare thing nationally but I do not anecdotally through conversations with women the situation that occurs where two people who get along otherwise (equally yoked) can't find physical pleasure in one another is not uncommon. Women tend to chuck it up as their duty or try to find pleasure in other things accepting they will never be physically pleased. And acceptance does not mean peace or contentment it means tolerance which is painful.

That doesn't mean the solution is fornication nor does it mean it's not.
There was one person who offered that being measured as a couple may not be a bad thing I'm David of abstinence before marriage.

And on the flip side the idea of some variation of controlled/monitored/guided formication as practiced in some small tribes.

Neither one of those are appealing because ultimately you want to have pleasure with the one you truly love either way.
At any rate I'll wait on the mods to see how to handle the question

 

[~Anastasia~]

Without getting too into details, from a physiological standpoint .... I believe the average female size will accommodate a few inches more than the average male size. So unless one or both are far outside of the average, it should not be a physiological problem. Women also accommodate over time. Patience and gentleness can also be very helpful, as well as a few other considerations.

If your concern is truly that size will be a problem, a doctor could be consulted. If the woman is having gyno exams, the doctor should already know. There should be no need for measuring.

But the way in which things are approached can make a difference. There can be pain without size being a problem, if there is a lack of preparation or too much roughness. That probably has MUCH more bearing on the experience than size. And these things can be learned. In fact, they are probably better suited within marriage when the partners have a level of security with each other and committed concern, where this might be less likely in a less permanent relationship.

 

[evoeth]

Increased numbers of partners are associated even with increased cancers developing.

What?

 

[~Anastasia~]

What?

Yes, some cancers are correlated with higher numbers of sexual partners.


ETA a quick Google should turn it up. Particularly cervical cancer in women, and what I had not read (and had not verified) is that it seems there are suggestions that men are likewise at higher risk of prostate cancer for the same behavior?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah I see so - you'll have to forgive me there are a lot of rules for the forums and within each forum. Is the rule essentially we can never express that we may be in favor of the idea of fornication on the board? I need to know because I'm wrestling with this question for many reasons and if the answer HAS to be never fornicate then my question wouldn't be the place to seek an objective opinion. I could care less either way but I don't want to go down a road where an option is removed that might be better.

I don't know if this will help or not. It is not against the rules to discuss premarital sex. However, no one can actively encourage someone to participate in it.

I think discussing pros and cons is ok, based on that. But no one can come in and directly say "go do that."

I do wonder if your questions might not be better put to married persons, rather than as a matter of ethics, given your particular concerns, as I understand them? You could start additional thread(s) there.


We have a section for questions from singles about marriage - Questions From Singles About Marriage

 

[Larniavc]

That's the thing Being of similar mind means nothing if you're trying to solve the problem and have no answer.

But it does mean that you are less likely to be antagonistic towards each other, even if you have to split up.

I'm friends with many of my ex partners.

 

[Khalliqa]

I am not seeking therapy. I'm seeking to explore the idea of fornication before and after marriage but not with the goal of ensuring that abstinence is seen as the best answer. I'm seeking to critically analyze both abstinence and fornication and discuss the pitfalls for society.


The problem of otherwise happy couples having sexual problems exists. I'm not seeking to help any one couple. I'm questioning society's guidance regarding our sexual behavior.


When we tell real people to be abstinent what happens and what are the consequences both good and bad?


When we tell real people to explore their sexuality what happens and what are the consequences both good and bad?


What are the consequences to society regarding STDs … self esteem and the longevity and nature of relationships.


Why would I reduce my pool to only married people? The question involves single, married, looking, courting, dating and all in between because we are all affected? Also everyone's goal is not marriage. While I might personally want marriage I can't deny that there are people who are not who seem to have healthier relationships than those I know that are. While I prefer to be abstinent I can't help but notice problems with it and the positives for not being abstinent.



Also, I can't imagine where grown adults discussing this would tell someone personally to go fornicate (I really hate that word but for the purpose of this board I'll use it) unless they were directly asking for advice about whether they should. :-/


This is the ethics forum and this is where my question lies.


Is it wise to tell a young girl to be abstinent before marriage and sentence her potentially to a life of sexual unfulfillment if she is not sexually discerning about her wants and needs and who matches her well?


Is it wise to tell a young girl to "fornicate" to find out about her needs and wants and sentence her potentially to a life of sexual frivolity and lack of sexual discipline?


Is it wise to tell men to look for chaste women thereby shunning women who are not but may be better suited for him? And possibly creating an unfair caste system?


Is it wise to tell men that a woman who doesn't put out is not worth your time and is immature?


Is it wise to tell a married couple that are probably better as friends than lovers to just keep sticking through it for the rest of their lives?


Is it wise to encourage open relationships? Why or why not? What are the risks? benefits? likelihoods etc..


All of these things stem from our sexual mores, values and rules and need to be explored.

 

[evoeth]

Yes, some cancers are correlated with higher numbers of sexual partners.


ETA a quick Google should turn it up. Particularly cervical cancer in women, and what I had not read (and had not verified) is that it seems there are suggestions that men are likewise at higher risk of prostate cancer for the same behavior?

HPV is associated with a higher risk of cancer. And now there's a vaccine for most of the strains that cause cancer...

At best it's accurate to say sex can raise the risk of HPV which can cause cancer, but sex does not cause cancer.

This may seem like a pedantic point, but it speaks to your argument. You're coming up with non-religious reasons to avoid sex, so the causal nature of HPV--> Cancer is highly relevant in the context of a set of HPV vaccines that are getting better and better. Or put another way: If there were a vaccine against every STD, would you still believe having sex is wrong?

 

[~Anastasia~]

HPV is associated with a higher risk of cancer. And now there's a vaccine for most of the strains that cause cancer...

At best it's accurate to say sex can raise the risk of HPV which can cause cancer, but sex does not cause cancer.

This may seem like a pedantic point, but it speaks to your argument. You're coming up with non-religious reasons to avoid sex, so the causal nature of HPV--> Cancer is highly relevant in the context of a set of HPV vaccines that are getting better and better. Or put another way: If there were a vaccine against every STD, would you still believe having sex is wrong?

If you will notice - I never said "sex causes cancer". I pointed out the correlation that exists between higher numbers of sexual partners and increased incidence of some cancers.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am not seeking therapy. I'm seeking to explore the idea of fornication before and after marriage but not with the goal of ensuring that abstinence is seen as the best answer. I'm seeking to critically analyze both abstinence and fornication and discuss the pitfalls for society.


The problem of otherwise happy couples having sexual problems exists. I'm not seeking to help any one couple. I'm questioning society's guidance regarding our sexual behavior.


When we tell real people to be abstinent what happens and what are the consequences both good and bad?


When we tell real people to explore their sexuality what happens and what are the consequences both good and bad?


What are the consequences to society regarding STDs … self esteem and the longevity and nature of relationships.


Why would I reduce my pool to only married people? The question involves single, married, looking, courting, dating and all in between because we are all affected? Also everyone's goal is not marriage. While I might personally want marriage I can't deny that there are people who are not who seem to have healthier relationships than those I know that are. While I prefer to be abstinent I can't help but notice problems with it and the positives for not being abstinent.



Also, I can't imagine where grown adults discussing this would tell someone personally to go fornicate (I really hate that word but for the purpose of this board I'll use it) unless they were directly asking for advice about whether they should. :-/


This is the ethics forum and this is where my question lies.


Is it wise to tell a young girl to be abstinent before marriage and sentence her potentially to a life of sexual unfulfillment if she is not sexually discerning about her wants and needs and who matches her well?


Is it wise to tell a young girl to "fornicate" to find out about her needs and wants and sentence her potentially to a life of sexual frivolity and lack of sexual discipline?


Is it wise to tell men to look for chaste women thereby shunning women who are not but may be better suited for him? And possibly creating an unfair caste system?


Is it wise to tell men that a woman who doesn't put out is not worth your time and is immature?


Is it wise to tell a married couple that are probably better as friends than lovers to just keep sticking through it for the rest of their lives?


Is it wise to encourage open relationships? Why or why not? What are the risks? benefits? likelihoods etc..


All of these things stem from our sexual mores, values and rules and need to be explored.

I see better now the kind of discussion you are interested in. As far as I know, it looks as though you would fall within the purposes of this forum to have such a discussion.

I thought your interest was more on a personal level.

With that I will probably step out of the discussion. It's not that I have no interest, but I'm going to be admitted into hospital early tomorrow and at best probably won't be very coherent or critical in my thinking for some days. But you should be fine here, and I think your last post spelled out potential angles for discussion to get things going for you. I hope you find the answers you need.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Thank you.

Not sure how you get around it if you think that though.

My question:

Not sure whether -on average- it's best (not right or good) to abstain or indulge

Big Minus of abstinence before marriage:

1. Personality, skies and emotional compatibility does not guarantee physical compatibility. If there is an incompatibility you're stuck with this physically incompatible person for the rest of your life. What if size causes pain? What if counseling etc don't work?
Do you settle for an orgasmles, painful or Very seldom having an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] for the rest of your life? You will only know for sure if you have intercourse.


Big Minus of fornication:

1. physical intimacy -can and often does - cloud one's assessment of the more lasting sustaining compatible parts of the relationship

The easiest solution to me, is to first be in a relationship for a while to determine how compatible you are personality wise, and once it is determined that you are compatible in terms of personality and would like the relationship to hopefully go somewhere, to try physical intimacy.

For some people, physical intimacy can be painful (some men and women are unfortunate and have that response to sex in general), but unless it is a chronic issue with one or both partners, I see no reason that it could never be reconciled, or even that it need to be a relationship ender. My fiance and I haven't had much luck in terms of sexual intimacy, for reasons I will not get into, but even if we never end up having sex, I can't imagine spending my life with anyone else.

 

[Khalliqa]

With that I will probably step out of the discussion. It's not that I have no interest, but I'm going to be admitted into hospital early tomorrow and at best probably won't be very coherent or critical in my thinking for some days. But you should be fine here, and I think your last post spelled out potential angles for discussion to get things going for you. I hope you find the answers you need.

:-( I hope all goes well and you bounce back and recover well..