Can I ask a question about Fornication?

2PhiloVoid

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I see. Is the bible the only exposure you've had regarding monogamy and marriage?
Pretty much. Prior to my engagement with the Bible at age 17, I had acculturated to some aspects of Hefner's Playboy Philosophy. (Where were my parents? They were busy taking care of life's problems........I didn't learn much of anything about monogamy from them.)

By wisdom.. I was taking your specific statement about men and essentially saying that when a person matures in any area you'll find those who have not matured in a certain area to seem "off" or "screwy" this is true for both genders and not just in the area of intimacy.
Ok. I just don't think men are justified in having a 'double standard' in sexual practices. Women more often than not, are looking for relationships (which is a good thing). Guys many times, if given the moral latitude, will become autonomous amoral agents who are just looking for an ongoing progression of improvement in sexual stimulation; not only is one woman not enough, men are looking for a 'better' model to replace the one they've previuosly acquired. Sounds like a crappy deal for women in my estimation.

I see/think in fundamental principles so, occasionally, my mind tends to drift on how a principle can have multiple applications.
That's a good thing, Khalliqa. Me too.
 
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Khalliqa

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Pretty much. Prior to my engagement with the Bible at age 17, I had acculturated to some aspects of Hefner's Playboy Philosophy. (Where were my parents? They were busy taking care of life's problems........I didn't learn much of anything about monogamy from them.)

Ok. I just don't think men are justified in having a 'double standard' in sexual practices. Women more often than not, are looking for relationships (which is a good thing). Guys many times, if given the moral latitude, will become autonomous amoral agents who are just looking for an ongoing progression of improvement in sexual stimulation; not only is one woman not enough, men are looking for a 'better' model to replace the one they've previuosly acquired. Sounds like a crappy deal for women in my estimation.

That's a good thing, Khalliqa. Me too.

Re- your preadolescent playboy exposure and subsequent intro. to monogamy through bible- thank god? I'll let the fact that I said that soak in a sec.

Re: double standard- I think men -in general- are biologically oriented to procreate and women -in general- seek stability. But our sexual drives are not so consistent and relegated not are they always in harmony with social mores and values. both men and women will go through a period or periods of heightened sexuality and at varying times in their life. Couple that with the desires created by special chemistry within a pluralistic diverse secular society and you have a mix of everything. Going on both beneficial and harmful. I'm not interested in regulation I'm interested in honesty and communication with those that matter.

Here's something controversial there are times where I've seen healthy exploration especially when a woman has gone through trauma and was throwing herself at anything that loved as a result of low self esteem. Experience ending in love in different forms helped her develop trust and discover her sense of control. Would I advocate that for a young girl? Nope. Would I suggest that to all women who go through trauma? Nope. But it worked for her and she came out of it healthy. If it was with men she'd known and trusted and they all remain friends albeit with different partners.


In fact advocating this to a trauma victim who does not display certain traits would be damaging.

And yes size matters and not always in the good way. Watching women suffer leads me to believe that just saying be pure til marriage or be looked st as a white or less than can't be the answer not can the answer br to do every man that's available-mainly because *ouch*

Also society stigmatizes all of women's experiences. Too prudish too sexual without context without understanding what a woman's experiences do for her.


Then there are men who are raped and come out feeling like men and those that feel something was stolen from them and I mean raised by grown women

I'm less interested in the rates of occurrence than the fact that they occur and our experiences matter they shape us.

My point is the rigidity with which society judges our intimate lives is infantile and often narcissistic.

This was typed on a very small smart phone so please excuse errors
 
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Sketcher

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Have you read any of the blogs and articles of people who were raised and followed scrupulously the "Purity Culture" as described by Joshua Harris in "I Kissed Dating Goodbye?"

It made more problems than it solved IMO.

"I love you; but I wish sex would just go away."

"I went 10 years with nothing [sexual] before we got married, and I can go another 10 years starting right now."
"Kissing dating goodbye," whether in its entirety or in the "lite" form which has been much more popular, is an extreme reaction that I think the church should have rejected a long time ago. However, it is best to save sex for marriage. As I said earlier, talking about issues like sex combined with sober self-reflection is something that every couple that is considering marriage should do.

And if that person "likes" no sex at all?
Are you talking about something permanent, or a temporary phase that the person is having trouble getting out of?

With this sex-saturated society you can read about or hear of all kinds of sexual activities without ever having experienced it. News stories. Movie trailers. Magazine headlines on a news stand.
That only raises curiosity, that doesn't create a powerful experience with another person that you would miss later.
 
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Dave-W

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Are you talking about something permanent, or a temporary phase that the person is having trouble getting out of?
Permanent
 
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Dave-W

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It really is that easy to find happiness in marriage.
When you have had years of parents and congregation telling you how terrible and sinful it is?
 
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Owen GB5

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When you have had years of parents and congregation telling you how terrible and sinful it is?

We did believe that we shouldn't have sex before marriage but we seemed to have understood that it was an important part of God's plan for us even though we didn't know much about it.
We liked 'studying' any mention of sex in the Bible. We found the verses about 'conjugal rights' very exciting and both looked forward to not witholding them!
We didn't have the knowledge or skills to enjoy our wedding night but our love was enough to last a lifetime.
 
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Dave-W

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We did believe that we shouldn't have sex before marriage but we seemed to have understood that it was an important part of God's plan for us even though we didn't know much about it.
We liked 'studying' any mention of sex in the Bible. We found the verses about 'conjugal rights' very exciting and both looked forward to not witholding them!
We didn't have the knowledge or skills to enjoy our wedding night but our love was enough to last a lifetime.
That did not answer the question.

Is it really "that easy to find happiness" when every time you try to be sexual together one (or both) of you gets flooded with flashbacks of childhood abuse; and you keep hearing your parents and pastor and youthgroup leader telling you how sinful sex is?
 
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Owen GB5

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That did not answer the question.

Is it really "that easy to find happiness" when every time you try to be sexual together one (or both) of you gets flooded with flashbacks of childhood abuse; and you keep hearing your parents and pastor and youthgroup leader telling you how sinful sex is?

I am getting out of my depth here. However, I can empathasize with your abuse. I was genitally mutilated as an infant (without knowledge or consent of my parents) and we were never able to have normal intercourse. I have felt anger and frustration every day of my life.
I should not sound like I am preaching to anyone but our relationship was intimate and exclusive and love can overcome a lot even though life is far from ever being perfect.
 
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Dave RP

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Thank you.

Not sure how you get around it if you think that though.

My question:

Not sure whether -on average- it's best (not right or good) to abstain or indulge

Big Minus of abstinence before marriage:

1. Personality, skies and emotional compatibility does not guarantee physical compatibility. If there is an incompatibility you're stuck with this physically incompatible person for the rest of your life. What if size causes pain? What if counseling etc don't work?
Do you settle for an orgasmles, painful or Very seldom having an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] for the rest of your life? You will only know for sure if you have intercourse.


Big Minus of fornication:

1. physical intimacy -can and often does - cloud one's assessment of the more lasting sustaining compatible parts of the relationship

I've got an experience to share.

My current partner is a devout Christian, she is divorced as am I. We are physically intimate and we are not married. I don't see a problem personally but I know she has had doubts she is doing the right thing, and a couple of members of her church have asked questions, albeit unofficially. We are both beyond child bearing years, obviously were not virgins when we met as we both have grown up families. Her feeling is that physical intimacy is an important part of a relationship, and that she is doing nothing wrong. One day we may get married, although not in church as we are both divorced, but for now we are not married.
 
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Dave-W

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Khalliqa

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I've got an experience to share.

My current partner is a devout Christian, she is divorced as am I. We are physically intimate and we are not married. I don't see a problem personally but I know she has had doubts she is doing the right thing, and a couple of members of her church have asked questions, albeit unofficially. We are both beyond child bearing years, obviously were not virgins when we met as we both have grown up families. Her feeling is that physical intimacy is an important part of a relationship, and that she is doing nothing wrong. One day we may get married, although not in church as we are both divorced, but for now we are not married.

Thank you for sharing this. I think maybe when we're adults this might be a more moot question because most of us have had sexual experiences already. Unless, we are caught thinking that our dignity is tied to when we are intimate with our partner.

I'm going to start a thread about believers and unbelieving relationships since I'm in a relationship with a Christian man. In fact our two year anniversary is in a few days and he just called to get my info so he could take me on vacay.. :-D

Never thought in a million years I'd be with a Christian man so this is interesting to say the least.. but again.. a separate topic altogether. I'd be interested in your journey as well. If nothing more than to not feel like we're such an anomaly. Ironically, he's way more comfortable than I am with this lol.. But, I'm digressing again.
 
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Dave RP

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Thank you for sharing this. I think maybe when we're adults this might be a more moot question because most of us have had sexual experiences already. Unless, we are caught thinking that our dignity is tied to when we are intimate with our partner.

I'm going to start a thread about believers and unbelieving relationships since I'm in a relationship with a Christian man. In fact our two year anniversary is in a few days and he just called to get my info so he could take me on vacay.. :-D

Never thought in a million years I'd be with a Christian man so this is interesting to say the least.. but again.. a separate topic altogether. I'd be interested in your journey as well. If nothing more than to not feel like we're such an anomaly. Ironically, he's way more comfortable than I am with this lol.. But, I'm digressing again.

I also never thought I'd be dating a Christian - in fact I hardly ever met any, but I find as long as I show respect for her beliefs and we don't get bogged down on who believes what, or why we hold those beliefs (or not) then we get along brilliantly. Personally I feel that religious belief is a personal thing and if that's what she believes in her heart, then good luck to her.

She knows I don't share her beliefs, I sometimes go with her to Church on a Sunday, and I have no problem listening to the service, the people there are by and large very friendly and welcoming.

Have you started you thread yet, I'll be interested to see the responses.
 
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Dave-W

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In your opinion Dave, not everyone shares your opinion.
It is not just my opinion. The bible commands that sex be contained ONLY within the marriage covenant. She knows that. So she is knowingly doing wrong.
 
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Dave RP

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It is not just my opinion. The bible commands that sex be contained ONLY within the marriage covenant. She knows that. So she is knowingly doing wrong.
Dave, what is your definition of a "marriage" - could it be a committed and exclusive relationship between two consenting adults, acknowledged freely together? If so, our lives together are within a marriage environment and she is doing nothing wrong? There are people in the Church who have no issue with unmarried people dating or living together if they are in a loving and exclusive relationship, so therefore the opinion you express is not shared by all Christians or all Church communities. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that not every Christian agrees with you.
 
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Dave-W

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Dave, what is your definition of a "marriage" - could it be a committed and exclusive relationship between two consenting adults, acknowledged freely together?
It is a covenant. It includes what you say but also must be expressed before witnesses, and if you live in a jurisdiction that administers and proscribes such arrangements, you follow the laws and stipulations of that jurisdiction to establish that marriage.
 
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Dave RP

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It is a covenant. It includes what you say but also must be expressed before witnesses, and if you live in a jurisdiction that administers and proscribes such arrangements, you follow the laws and stipulations of that jurisdiction to establish that marriage.
Dave, we've drifted off topic, sorry about that. Cheers.
 
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