Can Christians lose there salvation?

[Ben johnson]

I thank God that I came back to Him and that I know now that what He did for me will save me because I have faith in the grace that saves me. I also believe if I lost that faith again that I would also lose the gift that grace gives.

Jay, we are very grateful to have you in our saved family! Praise God that you are here, and will walk with us in the Kingdom of Heaven! The Spirit has revealed to your spirit and heart what Scripture says. I would like to respond to some of the posts in this thread, but first a little background---perhaps I can clear some of your confusion.

We speak of "OSAS" (once saved always saved), and "OSNAS" (not-always-saved), as if they were only two views; there are, in reality, three separate and distinct viewpoints under the heading of, "OSAS".

1. Carnal Christian---the belief that one can be in saved-relationship with God, but outta fellowship. One need not worry about backsliding, or practicing sins such as drunkenness, or fornication---for salvation is RELATIONSHIP apart from FELLOWSHIP. The Prodigal Son was very much saved when he was in decadance in the far land---he never stopped being the son; and he eventually came home.

2. Predestined-Election---the belief that it is GOD who chooses (from the beginning) who is SAVED and who shall be reprobated. Passages such as Eph1 and Rom9, and some from Rom8 are used. The Cross was not effective, it was demonstrative---for the choice was already made, the Cross only fulfilled what God had already chosen. Those who are PREDESTINED, will be saved, irresistibly; those who are UNCHOSEN, are hopelessly unredeemable. (Thus called, "Irresistible Grace").

3. Eternal Security---this belief rejects "limited atonement" (part and parcel of "Irresistible Grace), understand that salvation is UNIVERSALLY OFFERED. That though man is depraved and sinful (against Pelagius), nevertheless God desires EVERY man to be saved, and He brings EVERY one to the point of conscious decision; but, once IN, there is no OUT. Either the person's heart is changed so that it is not POSSIBLE to ever disbelieve, OR God will dynamically interfere in that person's life to preclude true apostasy.

ALL THREE perspectives share the "ESCAPE CLAUSE"---that is, "if one is sinning willfully NOW, then he was never saved in the FIRST place!"

God doesn't want everyone to be saved

I started reading this thread gathering thoughts to respond---and then I see that Cougan has eloquently posted many things that I would have posted! Bravo, Cougan! There is that verse in 2Pet3:9; but it's a slight bit MORE CLEAR in 1Tim2:4: "God our Savior ...desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Predestination is refuted by all of the verses that say, "all who WILL believe may be saved". (Please see Rev22:17---"Let O THELOS whosoever WILL take of the water of life freely") Clearly presenting volition. John 10:9 says "ANYONE can come through the door and become His sheep"---anyone. It is refuted by the "UNIVERSAL AVAILABILITY of salvation"---that ALL who believe can be saved". Please read Rom5:17-18---those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness. Then an exact and equal comparison is made---SO THEN condemnation CAME to all men, EVEN SO justification CAME to all men. There is no way to (unavoidably) see "all men, PAS ANTHROPOS") condemned, but then to twist the SECOND "pas anthropos all men" to mean only SOME can be justified. (ALL will be justified, IF they believe...)

The "chosen before the foundation of the world" and "you did not choose Me but I chose you" is explained nicely by the parable of Matt22:2-14 (read VERSE 14!), and 2Thess2:13---we were chosen from the beginning THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH!

(2 Thessalonians 2:11)For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

Would God really send a delusion to those he wants to be saved?

I think this might come under the "SEMITIC VIEW"---where God is ascribed actions which He simply DID NOT DO! Please read Rom9:17-18, Paul writes: "Scritpure says to Pharaoh, 'For this reason I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you;'... so then He has mercy on whom He desires, and hardens whom He desires."

At first glance you are inclined to believe Pharaoh was a helpless PAWN in the machinations of God; yet, believing the Bible as a WHOLE is inspired, let's read Exodus 9:34-35: But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had ceased, he sinned again and HARDENED HIS (OWN) HEART, he and his servants; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go..." NOW---let's read the VERY NEXT VERSE: (10:1) "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart ...that I might perform these signs of Mine among them...' "

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? PHARAOH DID! Yet it was attributed to God---this under the "Semitic view". Really, Pharaoh did it---God only HONORED the heardening.

So I take the 2Thess2 verse to be similarly understood---that they DID it, and God honored their choice (the strong delusion CONSEQUENTIAL to their sinfulness!) IDENTICAL to Rom1:21-26: "They knew God, but did not honor Him; became futile in their speculations, worshipping the CREATURE rather than the CREATOR. God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity... For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions... Just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer (pure volition here---no predestination!), God gave them over to a base and depraved mind..." 2Thess2:12 says that they FIRST DISBELIEVED THE TRUTH, which CAUSED God to send the delusion---NOT VICE VERSA!

He is the author and finisher of our faith..

Careful---the text was written in Greek---so sometimes we hafta look up meanings in Greek, not English. "Author" is "archegos", leader, PRINCE; "Finisher" is "teleiotes", "perfecter BY EXAMPLE". So, He is the LEADER and EXAMPLE of faith---NOT the divine manipulator!

So as long as you get up and STILL "faith" that Jesus IS who he claimed to be...You have assurance...!

EXACTLY that! See Col1:23, Heb3:14, Luke 21:19, and MANY others...

We are SEALED until the day of redemption.

Julie, I know you get very angry with me---so please understand that I mean no slight against you; your quotation of the verse was accurate, your paraphrasing was not. The verse says, unTO, not unTIL. It is all founded on belief---as Jay eloquently said, we are saved---as long as we abide in belief (which is to say, as long as we abide in HIM)...

I'm gonna end this post, and then immediately post simply a list of verses that I do not believe can be explained in light of "OSAS".

 

[Ben johnson]

1. "Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus, in Jn15:4-6

(In case you think ABIDING IN HIM is not salvation, please read 1Jn4:15-16)

2. "Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 (See 1Jn5:12-13)

(In case you think "reward" can never mean "Heaven ITSELF", please see Col3:23-24: "Whatever you do, do heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men; knowing that from the Lord you will receive THE REWARD OF THE INHERITANCE". The INHERITANCE is HEAVEN {1Pet1:4})

3. "Therefore DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, YOU MAY RECEIVE THE PROMISE." Heb10:35-36 (Exactly what is "THE PROMISE"? Could it be, ETERNAL LIFE? 1Jn2:25!!!)
(our CONFIDENCE, according to Heb10:19 & 6:19-20, is JESUS! The verse says, "do not throw away JESUS!")

4. "How much severer punishment do you think he will receive, he who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb10:29

5. "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

6. "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, while it is still called "today", lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

7. "Although you were formerly alienated and hostile, doing evil deeds, yet now He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach---if indeed you continue firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel…" Col1:22-23
(The HOPE of the Gospel, is JESUS---1Tim1:1---"not moved away from JESUS!")

8. "For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11
(Do you believe that if we STUMBLE {Greek: "Ptaio", become WRETCHED}, and forget purification from former sins, that the GATE will still be PROVIDED? {I've heard some say, "YES! Not as ABUNDANTLY but will still BE PROVIDED!})

9. "Keep standing firm, and do not be SUBJECT AGAIN to a yoke of slavery. Every man who receives circumcision (towards justification), is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you who would be justified by law, you have FALLEN FROM GRACE." Gal5:1-4

10. "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

11. "He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, 10:22, Mk13:13.

12. "By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

13. "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

14. "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6:

15. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

17. "My brethren (Christians?), if any of YOU strays from the truth (falls from salvation?), and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul (Greek: "Psuche" {Rev20:4}) from DEATH (Greek: "Thanatos"---death-and-HELL), and covered a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
(Contrast this with James 2:26, "spirit" is "Pnuema", "death" is "nekros"…)

18. "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

19. "do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

20. "Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

21. "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

22. "Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1

23. "Beware your adversary the devil, who prowls the world like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1Pet5:8 To what group of people was that written??? (1Pet5:1)

24. “Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will save yourself and those who hear you.” 1Tim4:16

25: “For if, after having escaped the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the second state is worse than the first; far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than HAVING KNOWN, to TURN AWAY FROM the holy commandment handed to them. It has happened according to the proverb, the dog returns to its vomit, the sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.” It is not the FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS that escape here, for the FALSE are slaves to corruption, and never cease from sin (14, 19). The FALSE seek to entice the TRULY SAVED (18). Use the Greek here---“True Knowledge” is EPIGNOSIS, “known” is EPIGINOSKO, “escaped” is APOPHUEGO. THESE EXACT GREEK WORDS appear in ch1 to UNDENIABLY describe SAVED, same faith as Peter---how then can they describe NEVER-SAVED in ch2? The words can NOT! They were SAVED, they truly “epistrepho ek turned FROM salvation!”

 

[eldermike]

First let me say that I don't believe that knowing the process of salvation = salvation. I think you can have it all wrong and be just fine because it's not us, it's Jesus that saves.

Someone already said this in this thread but it's not about how we read scripture, it's what we know about the nature of God that gives us the answer to this question.

God knows me, He knows I have never done or ever will do one thing that leads to salvation. I work for God, almost full time but the price for me was too high, and besides, it's paid in full as I write this.

God's nature is the only place to look for the answer to this question. The Hebrew People knew the scriptures but they didn't know God, Jesus told them so in John 8.

God promised me that if I believe He will save me. What do I have to believe? That Jesus saves and I don't, that I was a slave to sin and the law and now I am free from it. That He did this because He wants to be with me (John 17, where abiding in Him is fully explained). That He will not change His mind. That Jesus is God and Holy and Worthy, and I am not. Any part I might claim in this process is just a boast on my part.
Jesus saves.

I have no problem with other opinions on this issue. What I see as instructions on living a Christian life they see as a required work of salvation. I believe we have lots of instructions on how to fulfill the purpose for which we are called but that none are connected to salvation. I call all who believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, brother and sister. So, I have no problem with others beliefs,
But this is my belief and my reason.

Your brother in Christ

 

[jayebrownlee]

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I have never said that you need to knwo scripture, I have sometimes given scripture to back up what I was saying but not saying that you had to know it to be saved.

I do believe though that you need to know you are saved, not neccesarily from scripture, but as you say, from knowing God, I think the two things are completely different. I still know very little about scripture, but I have known I have been saved for some time now.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

If I came accross hevily I apologise, it was not my intention.

 

[new2calvin]

Ben, do you understand the English language at all? When it says "God sends them a great delusion." What is the subject of the sentance? God is the subject. And the subject does what the verb says and in this case its send. So God sends the dellusion. If God wanted the Bible to say he honored the delusion that they accepted it would have said that. But God wanted it to say he sent it.

 

[Ben johnson]

I still know very little about Scripture, but I have known I have been saved for some time now.

I just started picking up the Bible and reading it---and have learned an amazing amount. It was written by ordinary men, intended to be understood by ordinary men and women.

Ben, do you understand the English language at all? When it says "God sends them a great delusion." What is the subject of the sentance? God is the subject. And the subject does what the verb says and in this case its send. So God sends the dellusion. If God wanted the Bible to say he honored the delusion that they accepted it would have said that. But God wanted it to say he sent it.

Wellll, techincally, it wasn't written in English, but in Greek. But behind the language, there are some subtleties. Did you see the post I made about "God hardening Pharaoh's heart"? In Exodus 9:34-35 Pharaoh clearly hardens his OWN heart---but the very next verse (10:1) assigns credit to God.

2THess2:10 plainly says that they FIRST did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved---before being sent the strong delusion. So you can make the argument that "God sent the delusion BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF", but you can't make the argument that "their unbelief is BECAUSE GOD SENT THE DELUSION..."

Very good post, Mike. "God knows me, He knows I have never done or ever will do one thing that leads to salvation. I work for God, almost full time but the price for me was too high, and besides, it's paid in full as I write this. It was paid in full from the Cross, received by us. Salvation is CHRIST IN US---as Philip2:12-13 says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling---for it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose..."

 

[new2calvin]

but with the thessalonians verse. I understand what it says before hand, but what happens if they wnated to become believers at a later time? They wouldn't be able to because they were sent a dillusion, so after that time they will never be able to believe because of the delusion. If God gave people the free will to choose whether to believe in him or not he wouldnt send them a dillusion to keep them from coming to faith.

 

[new2calvin]

Originally posted by Ben johnson  
Did you see the post I made about "God hardening Pharaoh's heart"? In Exodus 9:34-35 Pharaoh clearly hardens his OWN heart---but the very next verse (10:1) assigns credit to God.

so your saying the Bible has errors?  If it says that God did it, but you say he didn't.  You're implying the Bible is wrong.

 

[Ben johnson]

but what happens if they wnated to become believers at a later time? They wouldn't be able to because they were sent a dillusion, so after that time they will never be able to believe because of the delusion. If God gave people the free will to choose whether to believe in him or not he wouldnt send them a dillusion to keep them from coming to faith.

I don't completely understand what Paul meant here. But throughout the NT, the offer of salvation is universal, and it is effected through our own faith. 2Thess2:13 (along with the parable in Matt22:2-14) explain how "we were chosen from the beginning" fits in with "every person who's ever lived CAN believe" (being chosen is consequential to our own faith)...

If it says that God did it, but you say he didn't. You're implying the Bible is wrong.

The Bible is not wrong. There is just a deeper understanding.

Exodus says two things:

1. Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
2. God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

The two concepts are contradictory---either PHARAOH did it, OR God did it. NOT both. How shall you resolve the issue?

PHARAOH HARDENED HIS OWN HEART. Saying, "GOD DID IT" is simply reflecting the view of the time.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart---consequence of his unbelieving.

It is PRECISELY THE SAME to say their DELUSION was consequence of their UNBELIEF in 2Thess2.

2Thess2 is not isolated and separate from the rest of Scripture. Scripture says "salvation is offered universally, but some WILL not believe because they don't WANT to."

I posted 25 verses above that speak of "man's volition in remaining saved"---true warnings, admonitions, instruction towards maturity and fellowship with God. Understanding the 2Thess passage as "Semitic", that they did it to themselves harmonizes those 25 verses (and the rest). But understanding that God CAPRICOUSLY sent them delusion to PREVENT their believing, causes contradiction...

Clear as mud?

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Warrior FC
God did not make robots!

He created and formed man with a free will!

We all have a Free choice to accept Him and eternal life only through His Son Yeshua (Jesus), The truth is, many will not!

To believe that God has only picked favorites that He pre-destined to be His children and the others can all go to hell is ludacrist!

He desires ALL to be saved!

Reformationist....Awaken to the truth, and work out your salvation with fear and trembling...

I believe the enemy has decieved you into believing God has favorites that He picked long ago... That is a lie!



Eph writes...

Not only that...But IF it's true that everything is already "predestined out"...WHY then did Jesus command to "go ye into the whole world and preach the Gosple"...

If everything is "planned out ahead of time"...Why bother preahing the Gosple to anyone...God already has it all planned out...

THAT is the fatal flaw in that "doctrine"...It allows for no movement...no free thinking....no GRACE for planting seeds OR for their growth...!

They'll NEVER be another you...We all are unique..and God's wish is He wants us all to be saved....but SOME will reject that free gift...THAT alone speaks of "random choices" be made by people...!

REV 3:20..Jesus said he knocks..But only "" IF "" you answer and open the door will he come in...!

The knock is real...But the IF is the random thing..not predestined by God...!

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
I don't completely understand what Paul meant here. But throughout the NT, the offer of salvation is universal, and it is effected through our own faith. 2Thess2:13 (along with the parable in Matt22:2-14) explain how "we were chosen from the beginning" fits in with "every person who's ever lived CAN believe" (being chosen is consequential to our own faith)...

Eph replies....

Please see HEBREWS 12:2....Jesus is the what...?

God sent his son...His son gave his life....When you realise that it should strike a cord in your heart....!

Romans 2:4 says GOD leadeth thee to repentance...Not ourself doing it...OK

When you learn of what Christ did for you...that leads You repent...God got the whole process started by sending his son...HE started your faith IN him by sending his son..and then YOU hearing his word..

That's what Romans 10:17 is all about..!

God did it all...start to finish...!

 

[jayebrownlee]

Thankyou eph, I think you have just summed up what I have been trying to say all through this thread

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[Ben johnson]

Please see HEBREWS 12:2....Jesus is the what...?

God is the "ARCHEGOS" and "TELEIOTES" of our faith---the LEADER and PERFECTER BY EXAMPLE.

God did it all...start to finish...!

This is what Reformationist has argued---that if God DID IT ALL, start to FINISH, then we can NEVER become unsaved (for who can thwart God's will?).

Our salvation was accomplished on the Cross---Jesus did EVERY BIT OF IT THERE---but our salvation is received by our own will (Rom5:17}.

And because of our own will in RECEIVING the finished work of salvation, because of our OWN HEARTS (Rom10:9-10), salvation can be "abided-in", or "forsaken". HE will never forsake US, but WE can forsake HIM! 2Tim2:11-13

Just as you said, Jay...

 

[jayebrownlee]

in deed ben!!

 

[Julie]

Some people just do not understand God's Salvation Plan.



We are told in Romans 8:38-39 that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, and the Lord tells us in Hebrews 13:5 that He will NEVER leave us or forsake us. Eternal Life is a PRESENT POSSESSION for the Christian.

If you've received Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you HAVE eternal life.

You will not go to Hell, for you have been saved by believing on the record that God gave of His Son (I John 5:11-13, .).

If you have received Christ as your Savior, then you have received eternal life, because Jesus Christ IS eternal life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4; Rom. 6:23).

He placed His Spirit within you to keep you and to preserve you (John 14:16-17; II Cor. 1:22); so you should be REJOICING in Christ, not WORRYING about losing Him!

 

[FOMWatts<><]

I do not believe in OSAS, but I do believe in OTSAS. LOL, I just add truly to the ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED philosophy. I am not the person to judge whether someone is truly saved or not, but I can only look at their fruit, and they themselves can know if they are TRULY saved or not. As far as falling away...Paul talks about this in

Hebrews 6:4 -- It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[2] to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Just my opinion!

FOMWatts<><

 

[FOMWatts<><]

In a couple of the previous posts one may derive that the authors of the post believe that man chooses to accept salvation. Am I wrong?

I do not believe man has a choice in the matter...who can deny God? What man has postivie volition? I don't and I accepted Christ, but not because of my own goodness because of HIS GREATNESS! We do not choose God, HE chooses us.

Romans 5:17 and the other verses listed do mention receipt of God's gift. One who recieves is one who is chosen to be given to, not one who sees something and goers after it by the goodness of his own being.

I may be misunderstanding, but I just wanted to throw my interpretation out there. Much love and God's peace to you all!

Merry Christmas too!!! :-D

FOMWatts<><

 

[jayebrownlee]

I do in deed believe that man "chooses" his salvation as you put it, but I think abetter way to describle how I feel is this.

God, in His greatness (no arguments from me on that point) has made a way for us all to be saved, that is every human being on this whole planet can be saved, through God's grace. However, it is not just a case of God handing out this amazing gift and it falling upon us, we actually have to acknowedge receipt of that gift and believe in its power.

I know that there are many verses that say that the chosen will be saved, but is there really any reason why God wouldn't choose everyone, why on earth would he pick some and not others, none of us are worthy to be saved, so why would He pick some unworthy but leave the rest to perish?? I refuse to believe that my God (and I presume your God (no offense meant)), who is a God of love and mercy would start picking people to be saved if we all could be.

I am not saying for a second that everyone in the whole world will be saved, that would be niave, however any person who accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour, IMO, will be saved, no question, I cannot accept that a God of grace would turn away anyone who asked in Jesus' name, with a remorseful heart, for forgiveness of their sins.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[FOMWatts<><]

...why would God choose some and not others? HE is God and we are HIS...it isn't that He chose those that would not believe, but He did choose those that would fulfill His plan, I mean if He didn't choose why would He let bad things happen? TO fulfill His will. Romans 8:28. I believe in limited atonement, though I believe Christ's blood is great enough to save mankind, I believe God knew beforehand His children, and those are the Elect, or chosen one's. You are right that God would not turn away those that ask in His name, but my point is that He chose those that would ask. Pretty much what I am saying is that we can not choose on on own to follow and believe in God, sure we have to accept His offer, but it is HIS grace and Will that we do so. We do not have ANY good in us without Him giving it to us. I know what you are saying and I think what we are saying is similar but we are saying it differently, it was hard for me to understand limited atonement at first , but after readin TULIP, which is a scripturally backed book on Calvinism I understood and it makes sense.

FOMWatts<><

 

[jayebrownlee]

God can use every single person, He makes each of us with His plan in mind, and therefore He could and, IMO, would save each and every one of us, should we accept that gift. I have said before and will say it again now, I also believe that God saves the elect, however where I differ is that I believe we are all the elect.

As regards to bad things happening, He lets them happen because we choose for them to happen. Let me explain, I do not mean that we let bad thigns happen to ourselves, but instead that people choose to do bad things to other people, for example a person chooses to murder that person, or that mugger chooses to hurt that old lady. Now I do believe that God uses bad things to do good, I have experienced much suffering, or bad things, in my life, but only because other people chose to hurt me, however I believe that one day God will put me in such a place that I can use these "experiences" to help someone in the future.

I do not find the idea of limited atonement hard to understand, it is just that after prayer and discussion with other Christians I can only consider it to be wrong.

I am not trying to offend by differing with your belief and please accept my apologies if this is the case, it truly was not my intention

your sister in Christ

Jay