Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

[Lord's Servant]

Not as dogma and not for their salvation. And mary as 'mother of god' occurs nowhere in scripture.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭CPDV‬‬
“And on the third day, a wedding was held in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.”
‭‭John‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭CPDV‬‬
The word is Jesus and He is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus who is God so Mary is the mother of God according to the flesh

 

[nondenom40]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭CPDV‬‬
“And on the third day, a wedding was held in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.”
‭‭John‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭CPDV‬‬
The word is Jesus and He is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus who is God so Mary is the mother of God according to the flesh

God can't be born or separated. If mary is the mother of God, then you'd have to include the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lord's Servant]

Then Jesus isn't God then ?

God can't be born or separated. If mary is the mother of God, then you'd have to include the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[nondenom40]

Then Jesus isn't God then ?

Of course He is. God pre-existed Mary didn't He? And can God be separated?

 

[Lord's Servant]

So Jesus when he was on earth cease to be God then?

 

[Albion]

God can't be born or separated. If mary is the mother of God, then you'd have to include the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Well, that's the "problem" with the term. The language can't be precise enough to preclude different ways of thinking about it. "Birthgiver of God" is the actual meaning, but even that can be seen as meaning "the one who originated God," which no one on any side believes. So she's the one who gave birth to the human, Jesus, who was God, but that has no implications for the Father and Holy Ghost who have not taken on a human nature.

 

[nondenom40]

So Jesus when he was on earth cease to be God then?

Asked and answered. Now care to answer my questions? Can God be separated? Can God be born?

 

[Albion]

I'm late in coming to this, Nondenom, but you asked if the birth of Jesus didn't necessarily involve the Father and Son, right? I just don't see any reason to think that it would. Although we all believe in the unity of God, we do believe in the persona of God and the Son is the only one who took on human flesh. HOW the three can be one and yet be three is, of course, a never-ending debate that cannot be resolved completely because this is above our comprehension level.

You also asked if God can be born, and I tried to address that in my last post. No, he cannot be originated (born), but we call it a birth when a woman produces a baby, and that's the event that the term Theotokos/Mother of God refers to.

 

[nondenom40]

I'm late in coming to this, Nondenom, but you asked if the birth of Jesus didn't necessarily involve the Father and Son, right? I just don't see any reason to think that it would. Although we all believe in the unity of God, we do believe in the persona of God and the Son is the only one who took on human flesh. HOW the three can be one and yet be three is, of course, a never-ending debate that cannot be resolved completely because this is above our comprehension level.

You also asked if God can be born, and I tried to address that in my last post. No, he cannot be originated (born), but we call it a birth when a woman produces a baby, and that's the event that the term Theotokos/Mother of God refers to.

Yes, Mary bore a son, a human being. Thats not to restrict His deity, He was, is and always will be God. But mary didn't provide Him with His deity.

We produce after our own kind right? Pigs can't procreate with turtles. For Mary to give birth to God then there are some things that have to be true of Mary for that to be literally true. Either Mary is more than a human being or the concept falls flat on its face. Theotokos is dogma of the rcc. It must be believed for salvation. That is no minor offense to some, including me.

Tim Staples has a recent book on this subject and why this one dogma might be THE most important of all and explains the dire consequences of rejecting such a doctrine. The term isn't used in scripture and was debated about and coined centuries post apostolic age. Personally i don't believe its as benign as people make it out to be (not saying that you are, just people ive talked with in general).

 

[Albion]

Yes, Mary bore a son, a human being. Thats not to restrict His deity, He was, is and always will be God. But mary didn't provide Him with His deity.

All true.

We produce after our own kind right? Pigs can't procreate with turtles. For Mary to give birth to God then there are some things that have to be true of Mary for that to be literally true. Either Mary is more than a human being or the concept falls flat on its face.

You're wrong there.

Theotokos is dogma of the rcc.

It's more the dogma of the Eastern Orthodox churches, but OK, it's Roman Catholic teaching, too. Either way, I agree that it is not something that ought to be dogmatized.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't think the EO's or Anglicans see mary as; perpetual virgin, mother of god, immaculately conceived, assumed into heaven. All of which are dogmas of the rcc and by definition necessary for your salvation. EO's and anglicans don't go nearly that far. Now some of the non-dogma titles and powers; co-mediatrix, co-redeemer, queen of heaven, omnipotent(ligouri), dispenser of all grace.....i could go on and on. No other religion has done this to mary who was a bond-slave of God, the mother of Jesus and an obedient jewish woman. 99% of what catholicism says about her is nowhere to be found in scripture.

Even the Lutheran Confessions confess her as ever virgin and Mother of God; certainly so do the EO.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Um actually Lutheran,Catholic,Anglican because Mary is the mother of God because Jesus is God and Eastern Orthodox believe in ever-virgin and and also in the assumption into heaven and Queen of heaven

Lutherans are free to accept the Assumption/Dormation of Mary as Adiaphora.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't know of any religion outside of catholicism that raises any of those marian teachings to dogma.

You have a very narrow view then.

 

[Lord's Servant]

Lutherans are free to accept the Assumption/Dormation of Mary as Adiaphora.

Wait what really? Wow I'm very surprised then

 

[nondenom40]

You have a very narrow view then.

Who else teaches that marys; assumption, immaculate conception, theotokos and pv are dogma? And since dogma, necessary for salvation? I thought that was just the rcc?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Regarding Dogma; I think I said "Adiaphora"; that is "things of indifference" that may be held as pious opinion. While our Confessions state that St. Mary's virginity remained inviolate after the birth of Jesus; neither it, nor the Bible say that one must believe such to be saved. Mother of God, Theotokos, is not spoken of in terms of an article of faith either, but like Semper Virago is clearly confessed in our confessions. The Assumption/Dormation is not. But while Scripture is silent there is some (rather questionable) anecdotal accounts that support this position, but that is more than is stated about her death and burial. Again, not dogma; adiaphor.

 

[nondenom40]

Regarding Dogma; I think I said "Adiaphora"; that is "things of indifference" that may be held as pious opinion. While our Confessions state that St. Mary's virginity remained inviolate after the birth of Jesus; neither it, nor the Bible say that one must believe such to be saved. Mother of God, Theotokos, is not spoken of in terms of an article of faith either, but like Semper Virago is clearly confessed in our confessions. The Assumption/Dormation is not. But while Scripture is silent there is some (rather questionable) anecdotal accounts that support this position, but that is more than is stated about her death and burial. Again, not dogma; adiaphor.

As it regards the rcc, not lutherans, anglicans or anyone else, those are dogmas of the roman catholic church as seen here
Catholic dogma is necessary to be believed for salvation, which includes papal infallibility and submission to the papacy....unam sanctum Boniface the 8th....

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As it regards the rcc, not lutherans, anglicans or anyone else, those are dogmas of the roman catholic church as seen here
Catholic dogma is necessary to be believed for salvation, which includes papal infallibility and submission to the papacy....unam sanctum Boniface the 8th....

Yes, you are correct; but the whole premise of this thread is not who is right and who is wrong, rather it is (according to the opening post):
Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

I'm officially a United Methodist but I raised Catholic. I'm interested if any Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans or any people from the High Church have any devotions to Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints. As for my devotions I use the Lutheran Rosary,the Pre-Trent Hail Mary,Angelus,Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God,Queen of Heaven prayer, and It is truly right to bless you prayer from a Eastern Orthodox hymn to Mary.What devotions do some Protestants use ,if any,towards Mary?

BTW, I too have a Rosary, it was a gift; I personally don't use it, but presently, it hangs beside an Icon in our dining room titled "The Nativity of the Most Holy Mother of God". Martin Luther was buried with his.

 

[prodromos]

Referring to Mary as the mother of God is a totally Christological statement. It is all about defending the dogma that Jesus is both man and God. It has never been about Mary except in the assumed knowledge that Mary is completely human like every one of us, no more, no less, otherwise the flesh that Jesus assumed on His incarnation would not have been our flesh, and if Jesus' flesh was not our flesh then His death and resurrection would have done nothing for our flesh and we would still be in the same miserable condition as before since only Mary's unique, not quite human flesh would have been redeemed.

Mothers give birth to persons, they don't simply give birth to natures, and Mary gave birth to the person Jesus who is God the Son. If we say that Mary only gave birth to Jesus humanity then we introduce heretical notions which have serious implications on salvation. Acknowledging that Mary is the mother of God is seriously important because it immediately prevents the development of a number of heresies.

 

[prodromos]

God can't be born or separated. If mary is the mother of God, then you'd have to include the Father and the Holy Spirit.

When we use expressions like, "God became man", or, "God's incarnation", no Christian I know of thinks either expression refers to the Father or the Holy Spirit, so why do some people suddenly have pond silt for brains when we use the expression, "mother of God"?