can a person be a christian and believe paul preached a false message?

[stuart lawrence]

I've been chatting to someone who correctly states Christs words are all we need to be saved. But the person also believes Paul preached a false message.
Can the Holy Spirit dwell in someone( for if he does not you cannot be a christian) who believes half the books of the NT were written by someone who preached a false message

 

[timewerx]

I've been chatting to someone who correctly states Christs words are all we need to be saved. But the person also believes Paul preached a false message.
Can the Holy Spirit dwell in someone( for if he does not you cannot be a christian) who believes half the books of the NT were written by someone who preached a false message

There are lots of teachings of Paul that appear (only in appearance, I'm not saying it's a fact) contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

Furthermore, Christ gave us warning of a false teacher in Matthew 24 where circumstances closely matches that of Paul.

I'm telling you these things so you would understand why Christians would believe such things.

It's actually *easy* to believe such things for people who were never Christians because the "dots actually connect"....

So please exercise understanding and compassion to such Christians.

 

[FireDragon76]

I know from a Lutheran perspective, the answer is a flat no.

Paul and Jesus don't contradict each other. Paul is dealing with pastoral applications of the Gospel, primarily speaking to gentiles. Jesus is talking to a Jewish audience in the prophetic tradition, using parables to teach his people about the kingdom of God.

 

[dysert]

To answer the question in the OP, the Holy Spirit can indeed dwell in someone who is wrong about some doctrinal matters. Just look around CF!

And for the record I don't think there are any contradictions between Jesus' teachings and Paul's.

 

[EmSw]

I know from a Lutheran perspective, the answer is a flat no.

Paul and Jesus don't contradict each other. Paul is dealing with pastoral applications of the Gospel, primarily speaking to gentiles. Jesus is talking to a Jewish audience in the prophetic tradition, using parables to teach his people about the kingdom of God.

He is speaking of me. I was born in the Lutheran faith. We were never told Jesus' words could not save a man, Jew or Gentile. Many Gentiles were saved by the message of Jesus alone. The earliest church only had the words of Jesus; they knew nothing of Paul. Many, many were saved by the Gospel of Jesus.

We have many today who say you can't be saved by Jesus' words alone; they are keeping many from the kingdom of God. Many want to say the Savior Himself can't save by His words, that God changes His mind and chooses another way for man to be saved.

Maybe you can tell me why Jesus' words can't save a man. I've asked stuart to provide the words of Jesus which mention salvation and he just won't do it. Maybe you can use the words of Jesus alone and tell us what He said about salvation.

 

[St_Worm2]

Since the Lord returned here and pressed St. Paul (His "chosen instrument .. to bear His name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel" .. v15) into service personally (Acts 9:1-19), and he was sent on his missionary journeys by the direct command of the Holy Spirit Himself (Acts 13:1-3), and he was highly regarded and beloved by the other Apostles (Acts 15:25), and his Epistles were referred to as "Scripture" by St. Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), it seems to me that St. Paul and his Epistles are both the genuine article

Never mind though, because NOTHING you say will convince most people who hold such negative beliefs about St. Paul and his Epistles that they may be wrong

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[EmSw]

Since the Lord returned here and pressed St. Paul (His "chosen instrument .. to bear His name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel" .. v15) into service personally (Acts 9:1-19), and he was sent on his missionary journeys by the direct command of the Holy Spirit Himself (Acts 13:1-3), and he was highly regarded and beloved by the other Apostles (Acts 15:25), and his Epistles were referred to as "Scripture" by St. Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), it seems to me that St. Paul and his Epistles are both the genuine article

Never mind though, because NOTHING you say will convince most people who hold such beliefs about St. Paul and his Epistles that they may be wrong

Yours in Christ,
David

Can the words of Jesus alone save? Or, do you think it is Jesus plus something else?

 

[timewerx]

Since the Lord returned here and pressed St. Paul (His "chosen instrument .. to bear His name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel" .. v15) into service personally (Acts 9:1-19), and he was sent on his missionary journeys by the direct command of the Holy Spirit Himself (Acts 13:1-3), and he was highly regarded and beloved by the other Apostles (Acts 15:25), and his Epistles were referred to as "Scripture" by St. Peter (2 Peter 3:15-16), it seems to me that St. Paul and his Epistles are both the genuine article

Never mind though, because NOTHING you say will convince most people who hold such beliefs about St. Paul and his Epistles that they may be wrong

Yours in Christ,
David

Those are apostolic writings. Jesus did not prophesy that another rather huge and substantial saint would be added to their ranks.... But Jesus gave them plenty of warnings against false teachers.

Jesus in the post resurrection may have implied that Peter is yet going to make another huge mistake. John 21 I think. Jesus asked Peter the same question "do you love me" three times! Remember Peter denied Jesus three times as well!

And indeed Peter made at least one huge mistake and we read it in the Bible when Peter let James take the lead in the Council of Jerusalem (against Christ's intention for Peter) regarding the treatment of Gentiles and James also made a mistake there by not consulting the Spirit first but depending on his own judgement instead.

And then there's one instance Paul did not forgive a brother.

They made mistakes when Jesus was with them.....And they still made mistakes after....

@EmSw does have a point. I'm simply trying to be objective... I don't share his faith but he does have a point in this case. The apostolic teachings (epistles) may be unreliable and redundant....Jesus did not promised us the Bible Canon anyways but the Spirit of Truth. It means the Truth trumps over anything, even if it is the Bible... The reliability of the Bible proving to be questionable doesn't undermine Christianity because it's all about the Spirit, not a book!

 

[Greg J.]

Salvation comes from having a heart condition of trusting the living Jesus, not from anyone's words. God can work in our hearts through words, but he can use anyone's words. As others have said or implied, Jesus and Paul are in no way contradictory to each other. If it seems that way, it just means you have more to learn (or more precisely, more revealed internally to you by God, which you can help bring about through obedience).

 

[FireDragon76]

With the exception of a minority of liberal Christians, I have never heard of any Christian placing Paul's writings outside the canon of Sacred Scriptures. Paul is the instrument by which the Roman empire became Christian. It would not have happened otherwise. That is why his epistles were collected by the early Church.

Maybe you need to delve into the history of Christianity and some philosophy. If we discredit Paul, we have to also discredit the idea that we can know much of anything about Jesus's message, because it was through Paul that we received the Gospel (Paul's writings are actually the earliest in the New Testament, the Gospels were written later, circulated to communities that had already heard or read Paul's message). It was a process of handing down what was received (tradition). By rejecting that traditioning process, we would be left with no sure basis for our beliefs. In short, we cannot have Christianity as we have known it without Paul.

 

[~Anastasia~]

With the exception of a minority of liberal Christians, I have never heard of any Christian placing Paul's writings outside the canon of Sacred Scriptures. Paul is the instrument by which the Roman empire became Christian. It would not have happened otherwise. That is why his epistles were collected by the early Church.

Maybe you need to delve into the history of Christianity and some philosophy. If we discredit Paul, we have to also discredit the idea that we can know much of anything about Jesus's message, because it was through Paul that we received the Gospel (Paul's writings are actually the earliest in the New Testament, the Gospels were written later, circulated to communities that had already heard or read Paul's message). It was a process of handing down what was received (tradition). By rejecting that traditioning process, we would be left with no sure basis for our beliefs. In short, we cannot have Christianity as we have known it without Paul.

I think you get very close to the heart of what I would say.

To rely on the Scriptures, but NOT on Paul's writings, is a logical inconsistency. If Paul's writings are not trustworthy, then how can we trust that the Councils and ekklesia that did recognize them as true were right about the rest of Scripture? How do we know the Gospel of Luke or the Gospel of John is worthy to be commended to us, rather the Gospel of Thomas and the Apocalypse of Peter?

If we use Scripture as authority, we are making no sense.

If we use the Holy Spirit within us as an authority, then we are rather pridefully assuming that the message of the Holy Spirit to US is more accurate than He was to thousands of Christians who were taught directly by the Apostles, as well as those men who led and established the very Church that collected, preserved, and passed down the Scriptures to us today, all while living under constant threat of martyrdom to do so. And that level of pride is an open floodgate for delusion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Furthermore, Christ gave us warning of a false teacher in Matthew 24 where circumstances closely matches that of Paul.

Please note that they ask Him about the end times or end of days.

Since Paul lived almost 2,000 years ago, we can safely exclude Paul from being part of this prophecy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There are lots of teachings of Paul that appear (only in appearance, I'm not saying it's a fact) contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

Furthermore, Christ gave us warning of a false teacher in Matthew 24 where circumstances closely matches that of Paul.

I'm telling you these things so you would understand why Christians would believe such things.

It's actually *easy* to believe such things for people who were never Christians because the "dots actually connect"....

So please exercise understanding and compassion to such Christians.

I think one of the difficulties with understanding Paul's teaching is he was a Pharisee and then the apostle to the gentiles. You have to have a decent understanding of the Old Testament to see where he talks about what was former, ie Law (Moses) and what is the New Testament/Covenant. I think some people really miss that aspect. Hebrews is a great book to see how the Old Covenant compares or contrasts the New Covenant.

I also think people do not study it. They go out and get a book from some anti-Paul author and are like "PAUL IS A FALSE PROPHET"! But don't read the Bible when Paul wrote half almost of the New Testament.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There are lots of teachings of Paul that appear (only in appearance, I'm not saying it's a fact) contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

Furthermore, Christ gave us warning of a false teacher in Matthew 24 where circumstances closely matches that of Paul.

I'm telling you these things so you would understand why Christians would believe such things.

It's actually *easy* to believe such things for people who were never Christians because the "dots actually connect"....

So please exercise understanding and compassion to such Christians.

Most people have no idea which books Paul even wrote unless it says "Paul" in the text. Nor do they know where and which of the three missionary journey's he visited which towns and started churches. Or even which books he probably wrote and what is the order. Nor what was the religious climate was like there, for instance which town or cities were very educated or philosophers rather than believers in a religion at all (maybe Jewish ppl that became Jewish Christians for example.)

The lack of understanding about Paul is due to bad Bible teaching.

 

[timewerx]

The lack of understanding about Paul is due to bad Bible teaching.

Many of the people who thinks Paul is a false teacher have been Christians for a long time. Many were formerly denominational or even Orthodox and have full trust of Paul before they came to such belief.

Quite many of the stated reasons what changed their mind is when they studied the Bible by themselves.

Ironically, the Bible doesn't teach against studying the scriptures by yourself (1 John 2:27).

 

[EmSw]

Please note that they ask Him about the end times or end of days.

Since Paul lived almost 2,000 years ago, we can safely exclude Paul from being part of this prophecy.

Jesus wasn't speaking about the end times here -

John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

[Soyeong]

I've been chatting to someone who correctly states Christs words are all we need to be saved. But the person also believes Paul preached a false message.
Can the Holy Spirit dwell in someone( for if he does not you cannot be a christian) who believes half the books of the NT were written by someone who preached a false message

The Bible directly states that Paul is difficult to understand, but I think when he is correctly understood that he was in full agreement with Jesus. I also think Paul adds much clarity to Christianity, so it would be much to our detriment to discard his writings, but when it comes down to it, Jesus does not need Paul's help to save us. However, if it were true that Paul was a false teacher, can the Spirit dwell in those who believe his writings to be true?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Many of the people who thinks Paul is a false teacher have been Christians for a long time. Many were formerly denominational or even Orthodox and have full trust of Paul before they came to such belief.

Quite many of the stated reasons what changed their mind is when they studied the Bible by themselves.

Ironically, the Bible doesn't teach against studying the scriptures by yourself (1 John 2:27).

What Christian church teaches Paul is a false apostle? I've never come across such a thing AND I've never heard a rock solid argument, using scripture that makes sense, so NO they do not know scripture better. They know scripture less.

You come up with your best argument against Paul and I will respond to each and every point. That's a challenge.

Really there has been a force calling Paul a false apostle only rather recently, I'd say in the last 10-15 years. I think satan figured out if he can discredit Paul then that would throw out half of the New Testament. The Paul hater;s are just better known now on the internet. Seems like a whole bunch, but probably is less than 6%, I'd even say 5%.

So it's more barking, IMHO than truth.

 

[redleghunter]

I've been chatting to someone who correctly states Christs words are all we need to be saved. But the person also believes Paul preached a false message.
Can the Holy Spirit dwell in someone( for if he does not you cannot be a christian) who believes half the books of the NT were written by someone who preached a false message

Could be more a false teaching following than the person not filled with the Holy Spirit.

We are not perfect and sometimes fall (hopefully temporarily) for "fake theology."

However it is egregious error to promote the notion the apostle Paul is a false teacher. If we do so we end up indicting the 12 apostles in Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles. They extended Paul the right hand of friendship. The apostle Peter and James even defended Paul's claims at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

So it's a serious charge to indicate, allude or state the apostle Paul is a false teacher or contradicted Jesus Christ. The NT testimony does not support this at all.

Jesus said in Luke 24:

Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Big bold red letters for the "red letter only" adherents.

Paul's epistles teach the same. So do the epistles of Peter and John.

For example, see 1 Corinthians 15. Then take another look at Luke 24.

Paul is preaching the same Gospel message Jesus taught His disciples right after His bodily Resurrection.

So I won't comment on whether someone is or is not filled with the Holy Spirit if they reject the teachings of the apostles. Waaaaay above my paygrade.

However, believing Paul or any of the other apostles were false teachers is frankly error. Error which will lead to more error.

 

[redleghunter]

There are lots of teachings of Paul that appear (only in appearance, I'm not saying it's a fact) contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

Show me.