If you go to The Bible Broadcasting Network and take there courses on Basic bible doctrine. You’ll understand the truth .
So show me all the examples in scripture of people who have committed this "specific" sin?Well, this is simply not what the text says. Jesus did not say, "Do not worry, my friends." "The only ones who have committed this sin has passed." "For it was committed just recently and will not happen again."
Yes, whosoever and the Pharisees are the only example spelled out in Scripture of committing what is "specifically" referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." Will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come does not mean in the world to come people will be running around committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but they will not be forgiven either in this world or the world to come.However, this is not the words Jesus used. Jesus did refer to the Pharisees but he said very clearly that this sin can happen again because He said, I quote,
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).
So ANYONE who purposely attributes the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil, in the presence of Jesus will not be forgiven today? Interesting. Has Jesus risen or not?Above in this verse, Jesus is clearly speaking in the present tense and not the past tense here. He also said, "WHOSOEVER" meaning ANYONE.
For the Dictionary says:
Who`so`ev´er
1. Whatsoever person; any person whatever that; whoever.
Whosoever will, let him take . . . freely.
- Rev. xxii. 17.
Source:
Whosoever | Definition of Whosoever by Webster's Online Dictionary
In other words, Matthew 12:32 is saying whosever speaks against the Holy Ghost (and not just the Pharisees he was referring to), it will not be forgiven of them. Now, if that is not enough for you, Jesus says that the "WHOSEVER" (ANY PERSON) commits this sin it will not be forgiven for those who commit this sin in:
(a) This world (and):
So during the Millennium, who will be committing this sin?(b) The world to come (i.e. the Millennium).
How could this sin be duplicated today since Jesus Christ is not still walking around on earth, but has risen? He is seated at the right hand of the Father. No one can personally witness Jesus performing a miracle today and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Holy Spirit.No. It's called you are not reading Scripture plainly. Matthew 12:32 is clear that anyone can commit this sin today. If verse 32 (and related parallel cross references) did not exist, then you may be onto something, but they do exist and thus your reasoning here does not make a lick of sense. For why say to us that WHOSEVER speaks against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven if it only applied to them? Did Jesus say it only applied to them? No. On the contrary, Jesus spoke to us as if this can happen for us today very clearly.
Actually, none of those verses refutes OSAS, but this is what happens when DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture get mixed up with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture and Justification gets confused with ongoing Sanctification. Sorry to burst your bubble. I know how much you love that doctrine. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.The Scriptures actually teach against Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). Click on the following spoiler button for the many Scripture verses that refute OSAS.
Long List of Verses Refuting Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):
- Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.
- Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.
- Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.
- Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.
- Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.
- Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.
- Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
- Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.
- Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also seeMatthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)
- Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).
- Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?
- Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.
- John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).
- John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.
- John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.
- John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?
- Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.
- Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
- Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.
- Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.
- Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.
- Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.
- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.
- 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.
- 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
- Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.
- Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
- Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
- Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.
- Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.
- Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
… so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.
- Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.
- Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
- Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.
- 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.
- 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.
- 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).
- 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.
- Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.
- Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?
- Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
- Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.
- Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
- Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).
- Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
- Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
- Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.
- Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
- Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
- Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
- Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.
- James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.
- 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.
- 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.
- 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.
- 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
- 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
- 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.
- 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.
- 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
- Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality
- Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.
- Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13 above).
- Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).
- Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.
- Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.
- Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
- Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.
- Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.
- Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
Source:
- Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS
If WHOSOEVER commits that same exact sin that is specifically referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," then yes, but in this case, we only have the Pharisees committing this specific sin mentioned in Scripture. Matthew 12:32 says that sin will not be forgiven in the world to come, not that it will necessarily be committed in the world to come. In order for this specific sin to be committed during the Millennium, we would have the same scenario happen all over again the same way it happened with the Pharisees, regardless of who committed it.The so called agenda you think I am promoting is simply the truth of the Scriptures that you do not want to hear. For if you were correct, then why have you not addressed the actual words in Matthew 12:32 that says "WHOSEVER" does not refer to meaning anyone as it is normally defined No dictionary I am aware of defines this word in such a way. What about the phrase of committing this sin in the world to come mean to you? How would you define committing this sin in the world to come? How does that make sense with what you said so far? In other words, you are not explaining what this verse is saying. You are just completely ignorig what Matthew 12:32 says and you are saying something else that is not there in Scripture.
So show me all the examples in scripture of people who have committed this "specific" sin?
You said:Yes, whosoever and the Pharisees are the only example spelled out in Scripture of committing what is "specifically" referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."
You said:Will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come does not mean in the world to come people will be running around committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but they will not be forgiven either in this world or the world to come.
So ANYONE who purposely attributes the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil, in the presence of Jesus will not be forgiven today? Interesting. Has Jesus risen or not?
So during the Millennium, who will be committing this sin?
How could this sin be duplicated today since Jesus Christ is not still walking around on earth, but has risen? He is seated at the right hand of the Father. No one can personally witness Jesus performing a miracle today and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Holy Spirit.
You said:Actually, none of those verses refutes OSAS, but this is what happens when DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture get mixed up with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture and Justification gets confused with ongoing Sanctification. Sorry to burst your bubble. I know how much you love that doctrine. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.
You said:If WHOSOEVER commits that same exact sin that is specifically referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," then yes, but in this case, we only have the Pharisees committing this specific sin mentioned in Scripture. Matthew 12:32 says that sin will not be forgiven in the world to come, not that it will necessarily be committed in the world to come. In order for this specific sin to be committed during the Millennium, we would have the same scenario happen all over again the same way it happened with the Pharisees, regardless of who committed it.
Of course inappropriate behavior with animals is evil and wrong and why would a genuine believer commit that sin? "Saved believer practicing inappropriate behavior with animals" or sin in general is an oxymoron (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9-10). That is a description of the unrighteous/unbelievers.Scripture is not written in such a neat way that we prefer. For example: Show me an example of inappropriate behavior with animals being wrong in the Bible (besides the commandment condemning it). Show me where it is condemned in the New Testament. The Old Testament (in several places) condemns inappropriate behavior with animals (by a commandment). However, we know that inappropriate behavior with animals is wrong even without an example given and even without a New Testament command. It is one of God's eternal moral laws given to man after the Fall. This would naturally fall under the category of sexual immorality within the New Testament. For common basic morality just tells us that this sin is evil and wrong.
But in your view: What if a believer does this sin in the New Testament? Do you believe they saved? I personally do not think they are, unless of course they repent of such a sin and forsake in doing such an evil thing.
I already agreed that the word "whosoever" means whosoever (anyone) who commits that sin, yet as I pointed out, the Pharisees are the only one's spelled out in Scripture of committing what is "specifically" referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." If anyone else other than the Pharisees would have done the same thing then what Jesus said about not being forgiven applies to them as well.But the word "whosoever" does not mean a specific group of people. The word "whosever" refers to anyone and not a select few. In other words, it's like you are trying to make the word "cat" mean "dog." Such is utter non sense. But you are free to change the facts of our English language if you wish. Just know, that such a method will not really work out too well for you if you are desiring to truly know what the Bible says plainly.
The Millennium is about peace, not the unforgivable sin and believers do not commit the unforgivable sin. The Pharisees who committed the unforgivable sin were not believers. I don't believe that I have ever met anyone who is as obsessed with the NOSAS doctrine as you.Only believers will exist during the Millennium. So only a believer will be able to commit the unforgivable sin in the Millennium.
I said the unforgivable sin will not be forgiven either in this world or the world to come. Why would the unforgivable sin be committed by believers in the world to come?As for your statement: "the world to come" does not mean "the world to come" (in reference to committing this sin) is just a denial of even more words within Matthew 12:32.
I have explained but it's like you don't even hear a word I say because you are blinded by your NOSAS obsession.There is no bubble to break on my end, my friend. You are the one who is not explaining anything of what these words mean at face value.
Here we go with the straw man arguments, which is nothing new with the Eternal IN-security belief. First off, notice that Paul said "work out" your salvation and not work for your salvation with fear and trembling. This is in regards to ongoing Sanctification and not salvation by works. There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)As for fear: Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Yet, no doubt you will see the word "fear" as not meaning "fear." Yet, even more Scripture does not mean what it says according to your beliefs. I mean, if it is not talking about fear then why all the trembling? It makes no sense. Then again, this is nothing new in the Eternal Security belief.
Says you. Jesus is talking about no forgiveness for the unforgivable sin in regards to "the world to come." Makes perfect sense, but go ahead and believe what you want to believe. You always do anyway. You also seem to really enjoy arguing.So Jesus is talking about a what if scenario in regards to the "the world to come"? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense (if that is what you believe). This is why Eternal Security is unbiblical.
More straw man arguments.Nothing of what you are pushing here can be found in Scripture. What you are saying is a direct violation of basic interpretation of how folks normally read something within the English language. So far, I get the impression that your belief is saying:
1. 'Whosoever" does not mean "whosoever."
2. "World to come" does not mean "world to come."
3. "Fear" does not mean "fear."
Of course inappropriate behavior with animals is evil and wrong and why would a genuine believer commit that sin? "Saved believer practicing inappropriate behavior with animals" or sin in general is an oxymoron (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9-10). That is a description of the unrighteous/unbelievers.
You said:I already agreed that the word "whosoever" means whosoever (anyone) who commits that sin, yet as I pointed out, the Pharisees are the only one's spelled out in Scripture of committing what is "specifically" referred to as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." If anyone else other than the Pharisees would have done the same thing then what Jesus said about not being forgiven applies to them as well.
You said:The Millennium is about peace, not the unforgivable sin and believers do not commit the unforgivable sin. The Pharisees who committed the unforgivable sin were not believers. I don't believe that I have ever met anyone who is as obsessed with the NOSAS doctrine as you.
I said the unforgivable sin will not be forgiven either in this world or the world to come. Why would the unforgivable sin be committed by believers in the world to come?
I have explained but it's like you don't even hear a word I say because you are blinded by your NOSAS obsession.
You said:Here we go with the straw man arguments, which is nothing new with the Eternal IN-security belief. First off, notice that Paul said "work out" your salvation and not work for your salvation with fear and trembling. This is in regards to ongoing Sanctification and not salvation by works. There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
You said:In regards to fear ad trembling, we are to fear God as fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2). Not fear God as if He is a tyrant who can't wait to punish us every time we mess up and send us to hell! The latter is an unhealthy fear and was the kind of fear of God that I experienced, prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago.
You said:Says you. Jesus is talking about no forgiveness for the unforgivable sin in regards to "the world to come." Makes perfect sense, but go ahead and believe what you want to believe. You always do anyway. You also seem to really enjoy arguing.
You said:More straw man arguments. There is just no getting through to you at all. The saints/believers are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) will not be lost or snatched out of the Lord's hand (John 6:37-39; 10:27-29) are justified and will be glorified (Romans 8:30) are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise (guaranteeing what is to come) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30) are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) etc..
You said:You will just have to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security without me.
Oh that's cool that you browse the forums a lot. Ive been a member here for like 3 years. Can I PM you about this? I think my psychiatrist should know what's going on so I think I'll tell her when I see her Tuesday. I mean If I keep saying "everything's fine" how can she help me? Maybe my meds need to be increased or maybe I just need to talk about it with someone besides God.
Oh, I'm so sorry, I hadn't seen this post. I've been away for a while, and then I thought that this thread had died down.
Sure, we can talk, feel free to contact me. I actually was going to PM you now, I just can't find the option.
Hope you're better.
The Pharisees in Matthew 12 were not even believers, so this passage of Scripture cannot be used to teach that genuine born again Christians commit this "specific" sin of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" and lose their salvation.
Okay so everyone knows what the unforgivable sin is and was in Jesus`s day. Many people say the unforgivable sin cannot be commited today because Jesus isn't walking on the Earth anymore. But I don't know. If the unforgivable sin could be commited today could a believer commit it? Say they have a mental illness and part of their mental illness is that they say really bad things about the holy spirit and Jesus could they be forgiven? I'm asking because I am the person with the mental illness and part of dealing with my illness everyday is dealing with thoughts that the holy spirit could be Satan. I mean Jesus says in John 6:37-6:40 that he will not lose a single believer so my salvation should be as secure as any other believers but I still cannot stop these thoughts from coming into my head no matter how many meds I take. I want Jesus to cure me so that I will never blasphemy him or any part of God anymore but he wont. Its almost as if Jesus hates me and doesn't understand how bad this is making me feel. So is it possible for a believer to commit the unforgivable sin? If not why? If yes we would eventually get the punishment we deserve for saying such things. But why would Jesus give us the holy spirit in the first place? And why would Jesus say he would not lose a single believer if believers could be lost? Wouldn't that make Jesus a liar? And wouldn't that mean that saying a believer could lose his salvation call Jesus a liar from his numerous statements in the bible that say that a believer cannot lose their salvation? I mean... I'm just as saved as any other believer right?
He (Satan) is getting desperate now, and he knows if he can elevate himself in the minds of the people to the level of an uncreated being, then, he's toast...Ok, I can't find the post, but the poster who is having a problem with thinking that the Holy Ghost (Spirit) could the Satan, the Devil...
Any real truth seeker is going to be confronted by thoughts of Jesus maybe being Satan, or the Holy Ghost, or even YHWH or the Father God, being Satan, that is because Satan is allowed to "suggest" these thoughts to truth seekers, and he desperately wants one of those positions. I've confronted them/him, on these and dealt with them...
One way I denyied and shot down these, is by saying back to the one making the suggestion, that Jesus is not a liar, and YHWH is not, and never has been a liar, and the Holy Spirit, is called, the Holy Spirit of "truth" and scripture says, is not a liar (and I said to him, "It is written") Anyway, it is written, Satan, and is true, that you are are a liar and manslayer, from the beginning, (that is: You were created that way) (he had a few things to try and say about this point as well) and the "truth" is not, never has been, and never will be "in you" or ever a part of you or ever will be in your nature... your very nature is always going to be against truth, and you try to present a false truth to many...
And, I used another scripture also, but can't recall it right now, as I forget what else he tried to say or suggest to me, and how I shot it/that/those down as well (with help of course), but, he is liar and is incapable of change, and he is, nor can, nor ever will be, even remotely associated with real truth...
So, he is not any member of the triune God of truth...
Satan is a liar, and always will be, for he was created that way and is incapable of change, and God is not, nor ever will be (a Liar like him)...
God Bless!
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