Calvinists...supported by this or hurt?

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

If I take it up with God, does that mean that I can count on your silence....

oh wait, was i supposed to laugh. Well even if i was it wasnt funny.but hey, if you wanna take it up with him, you wont win. Ill tell you that much.

 

[orthotomeo]

Ken,

Thank you for pointing out that J.I. Packer is not dead; if he is still alive then I heard wrong. I retract that statement.

Is there any way at all a non-elect person can ever be saved?

Elect in Christ (and for no other reason),

o.

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Ken,

Thank you for pointing out that J.I. Packer is not dead; if he is still alive then I heard wrong. I retract that statement.

Is there any way at all a non-elect person can ever be saved?

Elect in Christ (and for no other reason),

o.

If God has chosen a man for salvation, he will be savd before he dies. Whoever has and is rejecting/ed Christ was obviously not chosen. Its said in Jn. 10 That Christ has other sheep that are not of his pen, he must (and will) draw them also. I think you would benifit alot from reading Jude 4 Ortho, and make a judgement based on that. Let me know if you need greater expostion.

 

[lands21]

Some thoughts on these verses:

2Th 2:13 -

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you; - "Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." The following important things are affirmed or implied here:

(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.

(2) that this was from "the beginning" ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see Joh_1:1 ; Eph_1:4; 3:9-11. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.

(3) that this was the choice of the persons to whom Paul referred. The doctrine of personal election is, therefore, true.

(4) that this is a reason for thanksgiving. Why should it not be? Can there be any higher ground of praise or gratitude than that God has chosen us to be eternally holy and happy, and that he has from eternity designed that we should be so? Whatever, therefore, may be the feelings with which those who are not chosen to salvation, regard this doctrine, it is clear that those who have evidence that they are chosen should make it a subject of grateful praise. They can have no more exalted source of gratitude than that they are chosen to eternal life.

Through sanctification of the Spirit - Being made holy by the Divine Spirit. It is not without respect to character, but it is a choice to holiness and then to salvation. No one can have evidence that he is chosen to salvation except as he has evidence that he is sanctified by the Spirit; see Eph_1:4.

And belief of the truth - In connection with believing the truth. No one who is not a believer in the truth can have evidence that God has chosen him.

 

[rnmomof7]

Ken,

Thank you for pointing out that J.I. Packer is not dead; if he is still alive then I heard wrong. I retract that statement.

Is there any way at all a non-elect person can ever be saved?

Elect in Christ (and for no other reason),

o.

Orthomeo,

The non elect will never want to be saved. He seeks those things that are important to him, but he will never seek after the God of the Bible . Men always will choose what they will to choose....and the non elect will not want God because it is against his nature

Remember Romans?

Rom 3
10***As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11***There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12***They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Orthomeo,

The non elect will never want to be saved. He seeks those things that are important to him, but he will never seek after the God of the Bible . Men always will choose what they will to choose....and the non elect will not want God because it is against his nature

very well put rnmom. I am beginning to understand now how the nonelect act torward Gods word. I have realised that the ones God has chosen are more open to the gospel. Just have to witness, and rely on God, and not myself to bring them to God. Thanks RN. Is it ok by you that i use the saying of yours, " The non elect will never want to be saved. He seeks those things that are important to him, but he will never seek after the God of the Bible . Men always will choose what they will to choose....and the non elect will not want God because it is against his nature." to write an article? i have been trying to find a way to word it, and this is perfect. Is it ok by you?

 

[Ken]

Sorry about that, pray for me, as I have not yet learned to love a God of election. I realize that I am probably placing my salvation at risk if I am wrong. I am afraid.

I preach that God is light, and in him is no darkness. Election is a darkness that I cannot accept. A God that would create in his image, beings for the sole purpose of eternal torment without ever giving them the opportunity to escape; predestined before they were even created to be subject to eternal torture; is a God that I have not yet learned to call God.

We frown upon men for torturing a helpless cat, but you praise a God that for his own pleasure: Creates beings with feelings: Beings that were fearfully and wonderfully made, he created them just to torture them.

What would you think of this God, if you looked out your back door and there he was; torturing a helpless cat just because he is God. What would your first reaction be? Would you recognize him as God, or upon seeing what he was doing, would you require further identification. Perhaps a drivers license and a major credit card with picture ID. Prayerfully I hope that he regenerated you better than to praise him for it.

Please my friend, this is not hate, it is the inevitable consequences of reformed theology. I never said that you believed them, "or" embraced then. Nevertheless they are there. Why do you not want to see them? Even tho you deny them, the effect on what you believe is there whither you want to see them or not. Placing your head in the sand will not make them go away. Accusing me of hate because I love enough to expose them will not make them go away.

Perhaps you would consider the possibility that God has appointed me a watchman, and this is my watch. If I see the enemy and do not warn, your blood will be on my hands. I am not strong enough to carry that burden. If I allow you to silence me, should I not ought to obey God?

Not hate my friend; I love enough to continue to warn in spite of all obstacles. I am not perfect, but I am called. Knowing that, I find solace in knowing that God will not allow you to be harmed by my imperfections.

I will gladly back off, if in the annals of all of eternity past, you can show me where these poor helpless souls had the opportunity to come to God, but refused. Is that too much to ask? That is not what you teach, you teach that they were created for hell, and then you turn around and want to blame them for it. Did God consult with them concerning the state of their creation?

These are not concerns of hate. I love the ones that you are so willing to burn. Perhaps I am their spokesman. Perhaps God has called me to be an apostle to those that are lost. When you say that they deserve hell, I hurt for them, I don't know why; but I do.

Pray that my pain at their suffering goes away. I cannot embrace my salvation while I can hear their cries. I so hope that God will have mercy upon me for loving them. He did say that he came to seek and to save those that are lost. Why do you consider me a hate mongerer because I love them?

Have you ever considered that they might consider you to be a hate mongerer also; and all that I believe that you are trying to do is praise God: But to them it is a God that hates them? Does that make God a hate mongerer also?

I do not hate any man; But in order to love them, I have to hate your theology, perhaps that is why you call me hateful. You try to hate the same things that God hates, and God hates them... So it is easy for you to discard the, I do not believe that God hates them, therefore I can love them. For me, they are as easy to love as you are. Do you despise me for that?

Chappie, you and I have discussed these issues far too often and far too long for me to think that any good will come of discussing them again.

Be well

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Chappie, it is something i as well struggled with as well. But God has brought me to know that what he says is the final authority, and He says he has chosen some and not others. If you would like i will be more than happy to help. Just let me know either way. Good luck to you my friend.

 

[Ken]

O, I have a retraction of my own to make. I should NOT have said you lied in re to Packer, you were simply misinformed, my apologies.

I would be happy though, to try and answer your question ,as soon as I see that you have gone back and dealt a little more with my post to you. I am not going to spend that much time looking closely at your post and responding to it, just to have you ignore 90% of what was written, only to to ask me a question, without answering any yourself. We just cannot converse like that. You are every bit as responsible to answer questions as I am.

 

[rnmomof7]

very well put rnmom. I am beginning to understand now how the nonelect act torward Gods word. I have realised that the ones God has chosen are more open to the gospel. Just have to witness, and rely on God, and not myself to bring them to God. Thanks RN. Is it ok by you that i use the saying of yours, " The non elect will never want to be saved. He seeks those things that are important to him, but he will never seek after the God of the Bible . Men always will choose what they will to choose....and the non elect will not want God because it is against his nature." to write an article? i have been trying to find a way to word it, and this is perfect. Is it ok by you?

Sure just one thing. The elect are open to the gospel because of the work of Gods grace preceding it.

As Romans says NO Man seeks God.
It is the grace of God that brings us life to hear and desire to come to Christ .

God does not choose us based on what we do..He chooses us, as Ephesians says, because of his good pleasure.

God takes nothing away from the non elect , His hand does not restrain man from coming to Him . He adds to the elect a desire for God that was not present in our fallen state..

 

[Chappie]

oh wait, was i supposed to laugh. Well even if i was it wasnt funny.but hey, if you wanna take it up with him, you wont win. Ill tell you that much.

All theology, no joy!!!

But I will say that whenever I take anything to the Lord in prayer, whither I'm right or wrong; I never lose.

 

[Chappie]

Chappie, you and I have discussed these issues far too often and far too long for me to think that any good will come of discussing them again.

Be well

If you believe that the only possible good that can come from them is for me to believe as you do, then you have surmized correctly. Nothing Good will come out of them.

Do we have a history in another place? I believe that you know who I am, but i am not sure of who you are....

Be well, be blessed.

 

[Chappie]

Chappie, it is something i as well struggled with as well. But God has brought me to know that what he says is the final authority, and He says he has chosen some and not others. If you would like i will be more than happy to help. Just let me know either way. Good luck to you my friend.

Thank you, and I do count you as a friend. But if you want me to accept God as the final authourity, then he said, she said is not Good enough. I have to get as close to the source as humanly possible. That means that what you say God said is not Good enough. Christ is the only one mentioned in the bible by name as elect of God. Everyone else comes by grace through faith.

God never said that he has chosen some and not others. If he did you would turn to the passage and show it to me. But you will not, because you cannot. If God had said that he did, I would not struggle with it. I would trust his infinite wisdom with that as I do so many other things. But he did not say it, not in the bible that I read.

If you are ever really open to exegesis that is not mandated by reformed theology, theology that is totally dependent on scripture rather than the other way around. I will also help you.

Be well, be blessed...

 

[orthotomeo]

Concentrating on your main points:

Some thoughts on these verses:

2Th 2:13 -

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you; - "Because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." The following important things are affirmed or implied here:

(1) That God had chosen or elected them (εἵλετο heileto) to salvation. The doctrine of election, therefore, is true.

No one disputes the fact that election is true. But:

a. this is not the Greek word usually translated "election."

b. it is by no means clear that the the salvation spoken of here MUST be "soul salvation." The context suggest otherwise (tho the presuppositions of Reformed/Covenant theology force Calvinists to dismiss it).

(2) that this was from "the beginning" ἀπ ̓ ἀρχῆς ap' archēs; that is, from eternity; see Joh_1:1 ; Eph_1:4; 3:9-11. The doctrine of eternal election is, therefore, true.

Agreed. There is an eternal aspect to election.

(3) that this was the choice of the persons to whom Paul referred. The doctrine of personal election is, therefore, true.

How election impacts the individual believers is, of course, one aspect of the overall doctrine of election. However, Christ was elect first (Isa 42:1) and we become elect in Him.

No one can have evidence that he is chosen to salvation except as he has evidence that he is sanctified by the Spirit; see Eph_1:4.

Such "evidence" is too subjective and cannot prove a person's prior election. Many people believe (wrongly) that they are saved and sanctified by the Holy Spirit, including many devout Calvinists who, in the end, failed to perservere.

And belief of the truth - In connection with believing the truth.

Reprobates, theoretically, can believe they've believed the Truth when God didn't enable them to do so. That's where the "P" comes in. So again, mere belief is no proof one has been elected to believe.

No one who is not a believer in the truth can have evidence that God has chosen him.

Phrased more correctly, NO ONE can know in this life if he is a true believer, since none can know (a) that he was elected to salvation, nor (b) if he'll perservere unto death, thus proving he was elect all along.

o.

 

[Ken]

If you believe that the only possible good that can come from them is for me to believe as you do, then you have surmized correctly. Nothing Good will come out of them.

Do we have a history in another place? I believe that you know who I am, but i am not sure of who you are.... Be well, be blessed.

no Chappie, I do not believe that the only good that could come out of our discussion would be for you to believe as I do. I am perfectly happy to let you go on believing as you do, and I will continue to believe as I do. After our numerous and lengthy discussions on the various issues surrounding Calvinism in particular, and effectual calling in particular, nothing good has been accomplished. What I mean then, by "good", is that the conversations have just turned too heated for my taste, and I end up getting defensive and saying things I would rather not say, and as you have earlier stated elsewhere, you attempt to provoke Calvinists.

Unless I am mistaken, and I never am (just joking, couldn't resist quoting Prince Humperdink from The Princess Bride! LOL!) you are Rev Leonard, and I, of course, am Ken, from theologyforums.com. If there are 2 people that have exactly the same signature line as you and Rev Leonard had, well that would be quite the coincidence.

 

[Ken]

P_S Chappie, the kind of discourse I have in mind is the kind of things you say (about my beliefs) in your post of 18th February 2004, 02:36 PM ....... and for my part, I sincerely wish that you had not seen my initial knee jerk reaction to reading your posts throughout this thread, and for that, I apologize. I should have NEVER said that, please forgive me. But that is a perfect example of why it is best not to discuss these issues with you, I end up saying things I regret.

Blessings

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

All theology, no joy!!!

Excuse me, I have total joy in Christ. God has given me things to make me happy. I was just asking you if it was supposed to be funny, because i didnt laugh. whos to say that a person is not joyful??? I think you need to get to know me better before you say im not happy in my faith.

 

[Believes Gods Sovereignity]

Thank you, and I do count you as a friend. But if you want me to accept God as the final authourity, then he said, she said is not Good enough. I have to get as close to the source as humanly possible. That means that what you say God said is not Good enough. Christ is the only one mentioned in the bible by name as elect of God. Everyone else comes by grace through faith.

God never said that he has chosen some and not others. If he did you would turn to the passage and show it to me.

Eph 4:1-11

[QOUTE=CHAPPIE]But you will not, because you cannot. If God had said that he did, I would not struggle with it. I would trust his infinite wisdom with that as I do so many other things. But he did not say it, not in the bible that I read.[/Quote] Jeremiah Chapter 1. What about the 7000 that did not bow to Ba'al, did he not CHOOSE THEM from the world? Has he not chosen the 144,000 out of the 12 tribes of Israel??? Look at the beginning of alot of pauls letters, "Paul, a servant of Christ by the will of God," Did even paul not mention that it was all GOD that enabled him to come to Christ. You tell me where free will is involved in the conversion of paul and i will openly deny predestination. Who came to who is what im asking. So how bout that open debate? Using nothing but scripture.

 

[Chappie]

no Chappie, I do not believe that the only good that could come out of our discussion would be for you to believe as I do. I am perfectly happy to let you go on believing as you do, and I will continue to believe as I do. After our numerous and lengthy discussions on the various issues surrounding Calvinism in particular, and effectual calling in particular, nothing good has been accomplished. What I mean then, by "good", is that the conversations have just turned too heated for my taste, and I end up getting defensive and saying things I would rather not say, and as you have earlier stated elsewhere, you attempt to provoke Calvinists.

Unless I am mistaken, and I never am (just joking, couldn't resist quoting Prince Humperdink from The Princess Bride! LOL!) you are Rev Leonard, and I, of course, am Ken, from theologyforums.com. If there are 2 people that have exactly the same signature line as you and Rev Leonard had, well that would be quite the coincidence.

Why hello you ole rascal you. Great to hear from you, everytime I saw the name I was reminded of you. My prayer is that all is well with you.

Ken, I just want you to know that I love you and I respect you; and one of the saddest points in my life is that I cannot extend that same love and respect to reformed theology.

That you think that I am hateful in my posts causes me much discomfort. Still, the fact that election might prove offensive to those that do not embrace it is a fact that should not escape you. I do not even love preaching it, and if I were not a preacher I would never even bring it up or respond to it.

It is out of respect to you that i no longer post at theoforums. So would you please attribute that to me as my one redeeming quality.

 

[Chappie]

Eph 4:1-11

But you will not, because you cannot. If God had said that he did, I would not struggle with it. I would trust his infinite wisdom with that as I do so many other things. But he did not say it, not in the bible that I read.

BGS Said:
Jeremiah Chapter 1. What about the 7000 that did not bow to Ba'al, did he not CHOOSE THEM from the world? Has he not chosen the 144,000 out of the 12 tribes of Israel??? Look at the beginning of alot of pauls letters, "Paul, a servant of Christ by the will of God," Did even paul not mention that it was all GOD that enabled him to come to Christ. You tell me where free will is involved in the conversion of paul and i will openly deny predestination. Who came to who is what im asking. So how bout that open debate? Using nothing but scripture.

My understanding is that he chose them using specific criteria. He chose then because they had not bowed the knee to Ba'al. It does not say that he choose them not to bow to Ba'al. Here God uses criteria in making his choice. The quality that originated in his own person is that he was seeking those that had not bowed to Ba'al. That quality he found in the seven thousand. It does not say that he chose the seven thousand and then placed that quality in them. (to the exclusion of all the rest)

What quality of his own choosing did he find in The Elect that was absent in all the rest that caused him to choose the elect.

So as you should be able to see, the mechanics in choosing the 7,000 is so radically different from the mechanics of election that it cannot reasonably be used as a precedent for election.

Same with the 144,000, they were chosen as tribulation priests, this choice in no way substitutes for predestined to be saved...

Your illustrations fail miserably as a represenative or type of salvational election....