Calvinists...supported by this or hurt?

[XVII]

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

does this mean we are chosen from the beginning we are to be saved...or that we have the choice to be saved...and if we have the choice...can one be a full backslidden christian and still go to heaven?

 

[humble_soul]

I will attempt to answer your questions from a Calvinistic perspective, as a follower of Christ fully commited to reformed theology.

This verse supports election.

Calvinists believe that God chooses (elects) people before the foundation of the world and those people WILL come to faith in Christ.

They believe a person's will is bound by sin, and therefore a person can not choose God without God first choosing (electing) that person. At some point in the elected person's life, God regenerates their heart and makes the choice of Christ possible.

Most would say that there is no such thing as a "full backslidden christian". They believe that this act of regeneration keeps a person in faith until the end. They believe that without this act of regeneration, faith in Christ is impossible.

thanks,
hs

 

[JohnStevenson]

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
does this mean we are chosen from the beginning we are to be saved...or that we have the choice to be saved...

Let's read the passage again. Does it say that we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because you exercised your choice to be saved? No, my Bible doesn't say that. It says that God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation. I don't see any other way to read this or to explain it away. It plainly says that God chose those whom Paul is addressing to salvation.

But that is not all it says. It also says that God chose HOW they were to be saved. They were to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Thus predestination not only speaks of WHO shall be saved but also it speaks of the MEANS by which they shall be saved.

 

[XVII]

will there be anyone opposed to this belief?

 

[orthotomeo]

Does not support.

1. The word for "chosen" here (aihreomai) is not the usual word elsewhere used for election. Rather, it is a word which simply means "to take unto yourself" or "to receive unto yourself." This is very important to the context of this passage...

2. The salvation spoken of in this passage, going by the context, is physical salvation from the Tribulation period (which someone had spooked the Thessalonians into believing they'd suffer). There are many different "salvations" in the Bible -- PHYSICAL as well as spiritual. Spiritual salvation from sin and Hell isn't the point of this passage, though this safety from the Tribulation is a result of it (namely, a result of being a member of the Body of Christ).


Eternally safe in Him,

o.

 

[Chappie]

2 Thessalonians 2

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Does this mean we are chosen from the beginning we are to be saved...or that we have the choice to be saved...and if we have the choice...can one be a full backslidden christian and still go to heaven?

The passage does nothing to support salvational predestination. The passage can be hijacked to support election if one is predisposed to doing so. Still the passage is specific in stating that they were chosen through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth.

Calvinist claim that they were saved in eternity past, even before they believed. Essentially that means that they were saved even before they heard the truth. Faith is a condition of salvation, not election.

 

[KayDee]

Hi Rev

Good to see you. I see you are still at it ... have to give you an A for effort!

Calvinist claim that they were saved in eternity past, even before they believed. Essentially that means that they were saved even before they heard the truth. Faith is a condition of salvation, not election.

Sumbunny been fibbin' to you, Rev. We are predestined unto salvation before creation but we are not saved until God changes our hearts and we believe! Ain't no other way!! Makes me feel like dancin' - oops, I can't do that - I'm a Baptist. lol - these smilies are fun.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

 

[orthotomeo]

Sumbunny been fibbin' to you, Rev. We are predestined unto salvation before creation but we are not saved until God changes our hearts and we believe!

Chapter and verse, please? Thanks,

o.

 

[Chappie]

Hi Rev

Good to see you. I see you are still at it ... have to give you an A for effort!



Sumbunny been fibbin' to you, Rev. We are predestined unto salvation before creation but we are not saved until God changes our hearts and we believe! Ain't no other way!! Makes me feel like dancin' - oops, I can't do that - I'm a Baptist. lol - these smilies are fun.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

Helloooooooooo!
How are ya doin.
In this instance, changing the heart is secondary to predestination, it is predestination that seals ones fate. Can the one that is not predestined ever be saved? Can the one predestined ever be lost? Your predestination takes the place of grace. Changing the heart does not save, it prepares the way for that personal relationship that God desires with those that are saved..

Anyway, keep smiling and dancing, baptist or not...

May God Bless...

 

[Chappie]

Chapter and verse, please? Thanks,

o.

Make that, what bible, what chapter and what verse.......

 

[KayDee]

NO, no, no - I'm not going to take the bait - I've been in these debates before - they get no where - no one really wants to learn - just prove themselves right.

I'm sure you know exactly where the verses are you are requesting. The important thing is we all (Christians) love the Lord with all our souls, hearts, and minds. We believe the gospel and He is the Lord of our lives. Isn't that absolutely amazing? The only difference is you believe you had the final say and I believe God did - He caused me to believe. To Him goes all the glory.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

 

[Chappie]

NO, no, no - I'm not going to take the bait - I've been in these debates before - they get no where - no one really wants to learn - just prove themselves right.

Perhaps you could change that by first being willing to learn yourself. What's the difference between you and I? Are you not trying to prove predestination?

I'm sure you know exactly where the verses are you are requesting. The important thing is we all (Christians) love the Lord with all our souls, hearts, and minds.

If you really believe that, then why don't you drop all this predestination nonsense.

We believe the gospel and He is the Lord of our lives. Isn't that absolutely amazing? The only difference is you believe you had the final say and I believe God did - He caused me to believe. To Him goes all the glory.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

Somebody been fibbin to you Kay Dee, Personally, I believe no such thing. I accept responsibility before God for my actions, and throw myself on his mercy, you have him saving you and burning everybody else. If I go to hell, it is because i rejected God's plan of salvation, you have God rejecting everybody but you, (and your click) whoom he miraciously chose before the foundations of the world were laid...

You have God hating a majority of mankind, why does God hate them so? Do you know what agape love is?

 

[KayDee]

Well, Rev, I see nothing has changed. The second post I made was actually to O. in response to his asking for chapter and verse. We must have been on at the same time because your responses to me were not there when I started writing. Anyway, no, I'm not trying to prove predestination to you or anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. We had a very long debate going at one time and it was actually on that occasion when I made up my mind to never debate it again. As the Scripture says my God is an all loving God and a just God. Anything He does is in accord with these characteristics. Because this is true, I can trust Him that absolutely nothing He does will be outside of His love (and that would be agape, Rev) and justice. I don't have to completely understand it for it to be true. I just rest in that love, knowing He has everything under control.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

 

[orthotomeo]

As the Scripture says my God is an all loving God and a just God. Anything He does is in accord with these characteristics.

KayDee,

I mean you no disrespect, but you have not thought through what you're saying. To do as Calvinism says, God HAS have to violate what the Bible says is His nature! You are clearly intelligent - surely you can see at least that much?

I challenge any Calvinist to start a new thread addressing the following from Scripture:

a. Calvinism says God "pre-damns" or "pre-saves" individuals in eternity past; His decree took no reckoning of the personal choices of people who didn't yet exist.

b. The Bible says God rewards or condemns individuals SPECIFICALLY on the basis of how they choose to respond to His revealed will (today, that would be believing/disbelieving the Gospel of grace).

*How can both (a) and (b) be true when they are contradictory and mutually exclusive?

*Would a perfectly righteous, just and loving God condemn people on the basis of their choices, when HE KNOWS He didn't give them the power of choice?

*If you are a Calvinist who defends Calvinism, are you defending the honor and reputation of the God of the Bible, or are you defending (not to mention worshipping) Calvin's/Augustine's *concept* of God? Did you even know there's a difference? There is...a BIG one!


If Calvinism's view of God, man, and salvation are as obvious and self-evident as Calvinists say, then addressing the above from Scripture should be a breeze.

Again, KayDee, I mean you no disrespect. But one of us is slandering God.

o.

 

[Sybille]

I hope I am not interfering... But I am a french speaker and I wonder "what means "calvinism"? I never heard that before.

They believe a person's will is bound by sin, and therefore a person can not choose God without God first choosing (electing) that person. At some point in the elected person's life, God regenerates their heart and makes the choice of Christ possible.

Then why God didn't "chose" everyone? I read in the bible that God wants everyone to be saved. Sorry if my question is silly, coming from the fact that I don't have a clue what 'calvinism' is....

And does that mean that if I (for exemple) love God and believe in Jesus (and I do love Him and believe in Him) does that mean to you that perhaps I am not "saved" because I wasn't elected first.... or are you saying that ppl who doesn't believe in Christ aren't elected?

S

 

[orthotomeo]

I hope I am not interfering...

Absolutely not!

But I am a french speaker and I wonder "what means "calvinism"? I never heard that before.

Calvinism is a system of doctrine which is supposed to have been formed by John Calvin, a Roman Catholic from some centuries ago. The truth is, Calvin's views were influenced by Augustine, who in turn had been influenced by pagan Greek philosophy. In short, Calvinism is a system of interpretation largely based on assumptions borrowed from pagan Greeks; that means much of Calvinistic theology is antibiblical.

If you'd like to learn more on the Greek influences in Calvinism, visit www.biblicalanswers.com.

Then why God didn't "chose" everyone? I read in the bible that God wants everyone to be saved. Sorry if my question is silly, coming from the fact that I don't have a clue what 'calvinism' is....

Your question is not silly, it's exactly the right one to ask! The Bible DOES say God would like for everyone to be saved. But He doesn't choose individuals for salvation; Jesus Christ is God's elect One, and anyone who believes the Gospel is placed into Christ and thereby becomes elect in Him. Election does not focus on us - it's mainly about Christ.

And does that mean that if I (for exemple) love God and believe in Jesus (and I do love Him and believe in Him) does that mean to you that perhaps I am not "saved" because I wasn't elected first....

Calvinists have to admit to this possibility. Their theology demands it.

Calvinism teaches that while the Bible says God would like for ALL to be saved, what God REALLY means is He wants only those He elected to be saved. Scripture has to be denied and twisted for Calvinism to be true!

And by the way, there is NOTHING anyone can do to change God's elective choice...if He chose to save you, you WILL be saved sooner or later. If He didn't, you WON'T be saved because He's already made up His mind to burn you.

So, only those individuals God elected to salvation will TRULY believe and be TRULY saved. Anyone else will have a FALSE faith, no matter how much they love Christ. The non-elect can hear, understand, and believe the Gospel, thus APPEARING to be saved. Yet those folks, when they die, are in for a rude awakening...Calvinists say their faith was not genuine because it didn't come from God (because God didn't elect them to salvation). Of course ANYONE is truly saved if he or she trusts in Christ's sacrifice for their sin. But Calvinism denies that blessed fact.

Also: because God didn't give us a list of the individuals He choose to save, it's impossible to know who is and isn't elect. That means NO BELIEVER - not even a Calvinist! - can know in this life if he or she is really saved.

This is why no Calvinist can truly say with an honest heart that he KNOWS he is on his way to heaven; there's still the chance he may not be one of the elect after all. He has to wait and see if he perserveres in the faith without falling away from Christ...he has to wait until he dies to know if he made it or not. Sad but true, and only the most honest Calvinists admit it.

or are you saying that ppl who don't believe in Christ aren't elected?

Again, it depends on whether the person is elect or not. If he is elect, but is today a drunken, blasphemous, child molesting atheist, he WILL hear the Gospel eventually and God will MAKE him believe it.

And if the same guy is NOT elect, then even if he hears the Gospel and believes it, he isn't really saved because his saving faith didn't come from God.

Either way, the guy won't KNOW he's saved until he stands before God.

I think Calvinism is a false Gospel because one's faith isn't really in Christ, but in their (hoped for) election, which they say comes before faith in Christ.

Hope this helps,

o.

 

[KayDee]

Orthotemeo

This is exactly why I won't discuss the Doctrines of Grace with a "Freewiller". You have this false idea in your head of what God's amazing grace is all about. You've mixed a spattering of truth within your packet of lies. Before you "debate Calvinism" with anyone it might be a good idea to learn what it teaches. Just because a web site says something is true, doesn't make it true.

Sybille

Sweetie, if you love God with all your heart and are not pretending to believe the good news of Christ, you can be assured that you are saved. If you didn't have the Holy Spirit within you, you wouldn't have any interest in God or be able to love Him. There is nothing man can do to save himself - it is all of God's grace. The Holy Spirit witnesses to your spirit that you are a child of God. And, He'll never let you go. Isn't our God wonderful? If you have any more questions, send me an e-mail. My address is in my profile. Don't get upset or listen to these arguments online. A lot of untruths are said (on both sides). The most important things you can do is pray and study (not just read) your Bible.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

 

[Chappie]

Orthotemeo

This is exactly why I won't discuss the Doctrines of Grace with a "Freewiller". You have this false idea in your head of what God's amazing grace is all about. You've mixed a spattering of truth within your packet of lies. Before you "debate Calvinism" with anyone it might be a good idea to learn what it teaches. Just because a web site says something is true, doesn't make it true.

KayDee:
This is exactly why I won't discuss the Doctrines of Grace with a "Calvinists". You have this false idea in your head of what God's amazing grace is all about. You've mixed a spattering of truth within your packet of lies. Before you "debate The concept of Freewill" with anyone it might be a good idea to learn what it teaches. Just because a web site says something is true, doesn't make it true.

Funny how that ugly face that we see in others often turns up in the mirror when we stand in front of it, huh?

Sweetie, if you love God with all your heart and are not pretending to believe the good news of Christ, you can be assured that you are saved.

In order to know that, one would need a heart meter from heaven. Just how many acts of disobedience are allowed to those that love God with all their heart. Bible says, if you love me, obey my commandments. Have you ceased from sin?

If you didn't have the Holy Spirit within you, you wouldn't have any interest in God or be able to love Him.

Does Osama Bin Laden have the Holy Spirt within him, he claims to more feverently than most Christians. Perhaps he is just as deluded as Reformers are. I believe that God would not touch election with my hands, let alone his. You believe that he would. Does your believing, or my believing make it true? Is truth dependent on how feverently one believes? The bible says that many have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

There is nothing man can do to save himself - it is all of God's grace. The Holy Spirit witnesses to your spirit that you are a child of God.

And false knowledge will result in a false wittness. Ask Jim Jones and David Koresh...

And, He'll never let you go. Isn't our God wonderful? If you have any more questions, send me an e-mail. My address is in my profile.

"Isn't our God wonderful", if he elected you, then your answer could be yes. Now that's if you do not have any love or concerns for those that are not elected.

Concerning that email thing, you could do that. But it sounds to me like Kaydees doctrine is afraid of scrutinty. Reminds me of Jehovas wittnesses, you can get kicked out of the Kingdom Hall for listening to others...

Don't get upset or listen to these arguments online. A lot of untruths are said (on both sides). The most important things you can do is pray and study (not just read) your Bible.

Do you mean, don't listen to anyone, or don't listen to anyone but you. I would have to see you feed 2,000 with a few fish and two loves of bread, and then walk on water before I could take you up on that... Can you do that cross thing and get up after three days?

 

[Chappie]

Well, Rev, I see nothing has changed. The second post I made was actually to O. in response to his asking for chapter and verse. We must have been on at the same time because your responses to me were not there when I started writing. Anyway, no, I'm not trying to prove predestination to you or anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. We had a very long debate going at one time and it was actually on that occasion when I made up my mind to never debate it again. As the Scripture says my God is an all loving God and a just God. Anything He does is in accord with these characteristics. Because this is true, I can trust Him that absolutely nothing He does will be outside of His love (and that would be agape, Rev) and justice. I don't have to completely understand it for it to be true. I just rest in that love, knowing He has everything under control.

Forever In His Grace
KayDee

If you cannot understand, perhaps you should deferr to someone that does. Anyway, how can you make a statement that you do not understand, and then ask others to believe simply because you said it.

God has defined good and evil for us in scripture. Still you would accuse God of what he has defined as evil, but stipulate that if God does it, then it has to be good. God said that the day would come when men would call evil good, and good evil. It appears that Reformed Theology has fulfilled that prophesy.

God has defined for us what is good, and what is evil; and God does not cross the line simply because he is God. What you are really saying is that because he is God, you are willing to excuse him for the evil that he does rather than admit that he did what he told us was evil.

Perhaps when God does evil, he should bring a note from Kaydee, then we can call it good...

 

[KayDee]

Rev

Still you would accuse God of what he has defined as evil

where?

Perhaps when God does evil, he should bring a note from Kaydee, then we can call it good

I have to wonder how much glory a sarcastic statement like this brings to the Father?

I won't respond to post #18...because it left me speechless. God commands me to love my fellow brothers and sisters and anything I say right now may not be very loving.


Forever In His Grace
KayDee