Calvinists...supported by this or hurt?

[frumanchu]

You two are going to have to give me some time. There is a lot here to answer and I'm very busy. I will respond as time allows.

 

[orthotomeo]

No problem. I would ask, if you respond to anything I said, make it the last question I asked...

o.

 

[orthotomeo]

To rephrase it:

Does anything in the history of the universe happen without God directly decreeing and causing it to happen? Or does He decree and cause only some things that happen, while other things He merely allows to happen?

 

[rnmomof7]

To rephrase it:

Does anything in the history of the universe happen without God directly decreeing and causing it to happen? Or does He decree and cause only some things that happen, while other things He merely allows to happen?

What do you see as the difference?
If God foreknows some future event and allows it to stand, he has by his inaction predestined the event to occur .

 

[Chappie]

What do you see as the difference?
If God foreknows some future event and allows it to stand, he has by his inaction predestined the event to occur .

Predestination is a proactive act, it is not the result of inaction. Any attempt to combine the two is like trying to stretch a ticks butt over a 55 gallon rain barrel...

Here you do much harn to the credibility of your reformed theology..

 

[rnmomof7]

Predestination is a proactive act, it is not the result of inaction. Any attempt to combine the two is like trying to stretch a ticks but over a 55 gallon rain barrel...

Here you do much harn to the credibility of your reformed theology..

You need to think Chap

If God looking down your tube of time sees you with a gun in your hand pointed to your head and pulling the trigger and He does not intervene you suicide has been assured . By His non action he has positively predestined your death .

The very heart of Reform theology discuss an active or passive ordination.

I happen to believe in positive decrees, But we can look at the fall and see that Gods decision not to intervene in the sin was a passive act that was a positive predestination



http://www.the-highway.com/Bavinck_predestination.html

 

[Chappie]

You need to think Chap

Always something new, now we have to think. Ok, i'll play your little game: But if I have to think, you will have to think also..

If God looking down your tube of time sees you with a gun in your hand pointed to your head and pulling the trigger and He does not intervene you suicide has been assured . By His non action he has positively predestined your death.

Would that be kinda like, if I saw you about to committ suicide, and I decided to do nothing; would that mean that I predestined your suicide. I could do that. You don't have to be God to do nothing.

The only way that I could predestine it would be to put the gun in your hand and force you to pull the trigger. I would even have to use my power to create the circumstances necessary to bring your suicide to fruition.

Baring that, you could have a change of heart. The Gun could missfire, what if you miss? What would happen to your predestination in that case. Stranger things can happen. I would even have to make sure that medical personell are unable to revive you. You see, in order for predestination to exist, one has to be in control of all the events necessary to produce the desired results. And if God controled events sufficiently to produce the suicide, then there was no suicide. It was a killing. And God did it. What if I/he were to just step back and respect your freewill to choose the manner of your death. What do I/he predestine in that case.

Predestination requires the exercise of ones power to cause certain things to come to pass. Being a lookie-lou does not meet the criteria for predestination. Predestination by ommision is silly... Predestination means that God chose, and caused an event to happen... He was not a by-stander....

The very heart of Reform theology discuss an active or passive ordination.

Discuss it all you want, it still is silly. It still is not true...

I happen to believe in positive decrees, But we can look at the fall and see that Gods decision not to intervene in the sin was a passive act that was a positive predestination

http://www.the-highway.com/Bavinck_predestination.html

To say that God predestined Adam's sin would mean that he is not a God of love, he is not a benovelent God. He is in fact a shister, an expert at three card molly. He is good at doing things and then blaiming them on others. I do not care if he is God, he is not much of a God if he blames and punishes others for his actions.

Can you not see that predestination requires premeditation and proactivity on the part of the one doing the predestinating. No one, even Reformed Theology's god predestines anything standing on the sidelines watching. I don't care how many decrees you believe in. Predestination is the result of power to bring an event to pass...

 

[rnmomof7]

Always something new, now we have to think. Ok, i'll play your little game: But if I have to think, you will have to think also..

Would that be kinda like, if I saw you about to committ suicide, and I decided to do nothing; would that mean that I predestined your suicide. I could do that. You don't have to be God to do nothing.

In a sense the crime is called DEPRAVED indifference by the law. But our inaction may not predestinate it..someone else could come along. But when God does not act the thing or event is predestined

Baring that, you could have a change of heart. The Gun could missfire, what if you miss? What would happen to your predestination in that case.

We are not God, when He foreknows something it is not a guess or a wish he is seeing an assured act , so His inaction is predestination.

And if God controled events sufficiently to produce the suicide, then there was no suicide. It was a killing. And God did it. What if I/he were to just step back and respect your freewill to choose the manner of your death. What do I/he predestine in that case.

Do you understand omniseience or Foreknowlege.? God sees events that are assured , there would be no change in the event unless He acted.

Predestination requires the exercise of ones power to cause certain things to come to pass. Being a lookie-lou does not meet the criteria for predestination. Predestination by ommision is silly... Predestination means that God chose, and caused an event to happen... He was not a by-stander....

With God a failure to act is a positive act ...We are not like God.
I have a personal believe that all things are positively ordained.But God uses second means to achieve the results .

I believe that it is the Gods hand of restraint that keeps man from being as bad as he could be . If God removes His hand of restraint..he in effect stops acting (a non action) and then the person or event is assured of the foreknown and forordained event

To say that God predestined Adam's sin would mean that he is not a God of love, he is not a benovelent God. He is in fact a shister, an expert at three card molly. He is good at doing things and then blaiming them on others. I do not care if he is God, he is not much of a God if he blames and punishes others for his actions.

Was God surprised by the fall? If not then we have 2 things to consider , Either God knowing that Adam would sin because of the nature he had been created with forordained the even when He created Adam and then put him in the situation where He knew Adam would sin..or God decided not to change anything in the foreknown event to change the outcome.

Can you not see that predestination requires premeditation and proactivity on the part of the one doing the predestinating. No one, even Reformed Theology's god predestines anything standing on the sidelines watching. I don't care how many decrees you believe in. Predestination is the result of power to bring an event to pass...

Or not

 

[Chappie]

Until you are willing to follow some reason and logic in discussing things, you and reformed theology will remain a mystery steeped in foolishness to all those that adheer to the mechanics of the language that we speak. Bible dictionaries give us a standardized deffinition of words so that we can communicate, your double talk only confuses things.

But I must say that I love what you are doing, with advocacy such as this, future generations of possible Reformers will be unable to communicate with each other. Assuring the eventual demise of this darkness.

It is in remission, future generations will hopefully not have to suffer the darkness of this theology. And if I can do anything to keep you talking as illogical as you are, I will have done my part to put this stuff to rest.....

 

[orthotomeo]

Chappie,

Forget it. Logic is wasted here.

Have to say this:

He [Calvin's God] is good at doing things and then blaming them on others. I do not care if he is God - he is not much of a God if he blames and punishes others for his actions.

My hat is off to you! You just stated my #1 problem with neo-Augustinianism in one concise sentence; you've suceeded where I've failed. You just accurately described Calvinism's God by describing a God who is neither honest nor just, and so cannot be the God of the Bible. And I've yet to see any Calvinist here address, much less dispute, the point.

I'm going to save that quote and use it elsewhere. Thanks!

o.

 

[rnmomof7]

Until you are willing to follow some reason and logic in discussing things, you and reformed theology will remain a mystery steeped in foolishness to all those that adheer to the mechanics of the language that we speak. Bible dictionaries give us a standardized deffinition of words so that we can communicate, your double talk only confuses things.

But I must say that I love what you are doing, with advocacy such as this, future generations of possible Reformers will be unable to communicate with each other. Assuring the eventual demise of this darkness.

It is in remission, future generations will hopefully not have to suffer the darkness of this theology. And if I can do anything to keep you talking as illogical as you are, I will have done my part to put this stuff to rest.....

Dont worry Chapie to those it is given to understand ...will

 

[rnmomof7]

Please explain for the kids at home how Calvinism teaches that God MAKES men reject Him. Try to use quotes. Historic creeds would be even better.

It is not necessary for God to act to make men reject Him. That is the point. Men are born rejecting Him just as their father Adam did.

God acts to bring people to Him .




Rom 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Chappie]

Dont worry Chapie to those it is given to understand ...will

And to others it is given to think that they understand, but they are dead wrong... Worry...

 

[orthotomeo]

Chappie,

It is not necessary for God to act to make men reject Him. That is the point. Men are born rejecting Him just as their father Adam did.

Does this sound like somebody who actually understands what Calvin taught? Or does it sound like someone who is making it up as she goes along?

o.

 

[Chappie]

It is not necessary for God to act to make men reject Him. That is the point. Men are born rejecting Him just as their father Adam did.

Can we therefore conclude from this statement that it was not necessary that God predestined Adam's sin. Some reformers say that Adam's sin was necessary so that God could show his mercy. Glad that you disagree...

God acts to bring people to Him .
Rom 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 19 In context: Luke 19:9-11)

Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I know the Lord will make a way, he said he would:
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(Whole Chapter: 1 Peter 3 In context: 1 Peter 3:17-19)

 

[Chappie]

Chappie,



Does this sound like somebody who actually understands what Calvin taught? Or does it sound like someone who is making it up as she goes along?

o.

He's quite creative. He's making it up as he needs it...

 

[Chappie]

Actually Amazing grace was written by a Calvinist..

And indeed we do believe that Gods grace is amazing.
No man deserves to be spared the fires of Hell. There is none that have any right to to claim it as their do .That is what Mercy means. There is nothing that any man can do to earn it.

God has set apart a remnant for Himself to save out of this world

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That remnant, they are the whosoever believeth of John 3:16....

Just as God elected to save Noah and his family for a remnant and He chose to elect Israel from the mass of nations . He has set aside a remnant for himself in these last days.
The scripture does not say a remnant has set aside themselves , it places the choice squarely on God.

All men born after the flood are of Noah's family. Did you mean saved from the flood, or saved as in eternally with the father.... Can you see a difference here?

Was all Israel saved by election, or were they saved by Grace through Faith like everyone else. Or were they saved by pickey wickey, choosie woosie?

Even as you say that all of Noah's family was saved, you know that it is true only in regard to the flood. And as you proclaim Israel as God's elect, you know that they were not all saved. What!!!! An elect of God in hell.... Of God's true elect, he will lose none.

Deu 7:6**
For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

They were all priests chosen by God to evangelize the world. They failed. They were replaced by the church...

Deu 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

Exodus 19
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

They were chosen to be priests, not predestined to be saved...

Deu 7:8**
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

We love Him , because He loved us first.

The promise was to Abram, father of a nation. A promise that changed his name to Abraham. Father of many nations. Accomplished when Christ shed his blood to bring many to salvation.

Abraham believed God. Abraham, divinely decreed to be the earthly father of all that believe.

 

[rnmomof7]

[/b]

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That remnant, they are the whosoever believeth of John 3:16....

We agree that whosoever believes will be saved. The question is who is the whosoever?

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

*
Mat 16:17**
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Act 14:27**
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Psalms 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."


John Chapter 6 clearly points out who will believe and why

All men born after the flood are of Noah's family. Did you mean saved from the flood, or saved as in eternally with the father.... Can you see a difference here?

Did I ever suggest that other than Noah ANY member of Noah's family was elect to salvation?

Noah was chosen of God to continue the race of man . He was also elect of God for salvation .

Was all Israel saved by election, or were they saved by Grace through Faith like everyone else. Or were they saved by pickey wickey, choosie woosie?

Even as you say that all of Noah's family was saved, you know that it is true only in regard to the flood. And as you proclaim Israel as God's elect, you know that they were not all saved. What!!!! An elect of God in hell.... Of God's true elect, he will lose none.

I believe if you read the New Testament you will see that Noah was saved by Faith to salvation . There was no promise of eternal salvation for his family. Noah was the elect .

His family was blessed because of Noah ...but it never says that God found favor with them ( gave them grace)

I have no problem with Israel . Scripture is clear that the nation of Israel was Gods chosen nation, They were chosen because the Father of that nation Abraham was elect of God to be the Father of the line through which the Messiah would come , we know Abraham was elect to salvation . It was his seed that was blessed ...but no where is there a promise of salvation for all of His seed .


Deu 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:



Deu 7:8
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

God honored and blessed and set aside the nation of Israel and chose them because of His faithfulness to Abraham .
Remember for the sake of Abraham God preserved Ishmael and Lot .

Abraham was the elect of God to salvation . It was from his seed that would come a savior. They were chosen (elected)for a purpose not for universal salvation .

 

[Chappie]

We agree that whosoever believes will be saved. The question is who is the whosoever?

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

*
Mat 16:17**
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Act 14:27**
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Psalms 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."


John Chapter 6 clearly points out who will believe and why

Did I ever suggest that other than Noah ANY member of Noah's family was elect to salvation?

Noah was chosen of God to continue the race of man.

That is true.

He was also elect of God for salvation

.

The bible never says that. You said that....

I believe if you read the New Testament you will see that Noah was saved by Faith to salvation . There was no promise of eternal salvation for his family. Noah was the elect .

His family was blessed because of Noah ...but it never says that God found favor with them ( gave them grace)

I have no problem with Israel . Scripture is clear that the nation of Israel was Gods chosen nation, They were chosen because the Father of that nation Abraham was elect of God to be the Father of the line through which the Messiah would come , we know Abraham was elect to salvation . It was his seed that was blessed ...but no where is there a promise of salvation for all of His seed .


Deu 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:



Deu 7:8
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

God honored and blessed and set aside the nation of Israel and chose them because of His faithfulness to Abraham .
Remember for the sake of Abraham God preserved Ishmael and Lot .

Abraham was the elect of God to salvation . It was from his seed that would come a savior. They were chosen (elected)for a purpose not for universal salvation .

The elect are the elect, but nowhere is scripture is it stated that they were predestined to be the elect. Noah "found" grace. No where does it say that Noah was predestined to find grace... Or that God found it for him...

Be well, be blessed...

 

[orthotomeo]

R.C. Sproul wrote:

In the Reformed view, God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not...work sin or unbelief in their lives...God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly.

Yet A.W. Pink - for all his errors - answered this cop-out thinking correctly:

The thoughtful reader will naturally ask, "And what of those who were not 'ordained to eternal life?' " The answer usually returned to this question, even by those who profess to believe what the Scriptures teach concerning God's sovereignty, is that God passes by the non-elect, leaves them alone to go their own way, and in the end casts them into the Lake of Fire because they refused his way, and rejected the Saviour of his providing. But this is only a part of the truth; the other part that which is most offensive to the carnal mind is either ignored or denied . . . From what has been before us in the previous chapter concerning the election of some to salvation, it would unavoidably follow, even if Scripture had been silent upon it, that there must be a rejection of others. Every choice, evidently and necessarily, implies a refusal [of that which is not chosen] - for where there is no leaving out there can be no choice. If there be some whom God has elected unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:3), there must be others who are not elected unto salvation. If there are some that the Father gave to Christ (John 6:37), there must be others whom he did not give unto Christ. If there are some whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life (Rev. 21:27), there must be others whose names are not written there . . . God had a definite reason why he created men, a specific purpose why he created this and that individual, and in view of the eternal destination of his creatures, he purposed either that this one should spend eternity in Heaven or that this one should spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. (The Sovereignty of God, ch. 5)

Even the Westminster confession plainly states:

The rest of mankind [the non-elect] God was pleased...to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Chap. III Art. VI and VII)

Could some be "passed by" for salvation without automatically being "ordained to dishonour and wrath"? No. To do one is to automatically do the other. And all this in eternity past! Before anyone existed! Before anyone sinned and thereby earned the justice of condemnation!

o.