Calvinists...supported by this or hurt?

[Chappie]

P_S Chappie, the kind of discourse I have in mind is the kind of things you say (about my beliefs) in your post of 18th February 2004, 02:36 PM ....... and for my part, I sincerely wish that you had not seen my initial knee jerk reaction to reading your posts throughout this thread, and for that, I apologize. I should have NEVER said that, please forgive me. But that is a perfect example of why it is best not to discuss these issues with you, I end up saying things I regret.

Blessings

Ken:
I searched my posts on that day as close to that time frame as I could get, I found one at 2:49, but i failed to recognize anything that I would consider hateful. But then that is of no value anyway, as I do not post with that intention.

I would consider it a favor if you would copy and past it in response to this post. Perhaps with an explanation as to why you consider it so offensive....

Be well, be blessed.

Theo has a hold of me on another board that I post on. For me....

 

[rnmomof7]

My understanding is that he chose them using specific criteria. He chose then because they had not bowed the knee to Ba'al. It does not say that he choose them not to bow to Ba'al. Here God uses criteria in making his choice. The quality that originated in his own person is that he was seeking those that had not bowed to Ba'al. That quality he found in the seven thousand. It does not say that he chose the seven thousand and then placed that quality in them. (to the exclusion of all the rest)

What quality of his own choosing did he find in The Elect that was absent in all the rest that caused him to choose the elect.

So as you should be able to see, the mechanics in choosing the 7,000 is so radically different from the mechanics of election that it cannot reasonably be used as a precedent for election.

Same with the 144,000, they were chosen as tribulation priests, this choice in no way substitutes for predestined to be saved...

Your illustrations fail miserably as a represenative or type of salvational election....

Choice is choice Chappie ..the fact is God chose them for His own purposes .
.
Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

It is not individual worth or collective worth . The choice is according to His good pleasure .
To think that it must be because we somehow deserve it , based on our actions or character removes God's mercy from the equation .

They did not bend the knee to baal because they were chosen by God. They were not chosen because of it.
All of us make decisions (choices)based on our preferences , those preferences are part of our being from creation . The 7,000 had exactly the character that God had created in them. Their choice was not a surprise to Him. He made them in such a way that they could and would discern the truth and act in a way that was ordained.

The need to find a reason why God choses some comes from our carnal /sinful nature that demands we know everything , and understand it.
Remember what satan told eve? Eat this and you will be like gods knowing good from evil...the same desire resides in us today .

God acts because He acts. That is all we know and can know.

We can also know that if we in anyway deserve to be saved , it ceases to be mercy .

God is in charge of all creation and all events. He controls our human life and our eternal life.He uses men as tools to accomplish His will on earth , and He chooses people as His adopted children in Christ.
They may or may not be the same people ...but all creation and history and events belong to Him . Even the fleas that covered Egypt are subject to His command .

I remember hearing a story from Corrie ten Boom

While imprisoned she prayed to have the infestation of fleas that tortured her removed, but it seemed that God did not hear her prayer.

When she was at last released one of the Guards told her that they never checked her building because no one wanter to go in there because of the fleas.

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. He was sovereign all creation then and is sovereign over all creation, and that includes our lives here and in eternity .


Rom 11:6** And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

I'll throw in what I believe, and it's based on the following 3 passages:

Romans 8:28-30:
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose. 29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

1 Tim 2: 3, 4:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

On the surface, these passages seem to contradict each other? But do they really?

I believe the key word in the first portion of that first passage is "foreknew". God knew without a doubt who would accept Christ as savior.

In the second passage, I have heard people say that the "all" doesn't mean every single person. I have never believed that.

Here is the 3rd passage...

Isa. 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So, here is my belief, tying these 3 passages together, as well as other verses which do indeed say that certain people are chosen.

I think have come to believe that God does not actually call everyone. But I don't believe it's an arbitrary decision like "Oh, I want this one to go to Heaven", and "This one to go to hell", etc. I think God desires that everyone would accept him. I think that in his omniscience , God foreknew who would accept him as Christ, if he were indeed to call everyone. Because his word never returns void, he calls only those whom he foreknew would accept him. I believe that the term "pre-destination" doesn't have anything to do with non-Christians. I think it only applies to Christians; those whom accept Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[rnmomof7]

Slave2SinNoMore

vbmenu_register("postmenu_1811324", true);

I'll throw in what I believe, and it's based on the following 3 passages:



Romans 8:28-30:
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go His purpose

Note who it is the God CAUSES all things to work together for.



Those HE CALLS . not those that call Him ..not those that choose Him
..those He calls

29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

The problem is that foreknow also means predestinate:
AV - foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1; 5

From the greek proginosko

1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate

God foreknows all his work for all time. Before I was born He knew me. (Jer1:15) Before I could do good or evil God knew me , and chose me . (Romans9)


Eph 1:4** According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He ordained up to holiness..Our "holiness" and that we would be blameless in His eyes before Him (In Christ) . Our personal righteousness did not cause Him choosing us .

30) and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

He called those He had predestined it is only those He called to repent and believe.

1 Tim 2: 3, 4:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These are the uses of the word Pas in scripture

AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
*****everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
*****no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
*****whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
*****any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

As you see it is not a "clear a read" as some think.


In the case of the Greek the word all can mean some of all kinds, which is sometimes how the Jews understood the word PAS.
The Jews had a great distaste for the gentile nations. So when Jesus and His followers preached that He had come for all men , they understood He meant that the God of Israel was also the God of the heathen Gentile nations. They were no longer the exclusive people of God .

The understanding is clarified in Revelations

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


As an example consider this verse.

Luk 2:3
And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

That all does not mean all men without exception . The " all "here were the Jews. A sub part of the whole of the Roman empire.


... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon

We have to consider if it was His will that all men to be saved they would be ... Is His arm too short to save ?

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

If it was the will of all men to be saved,He would not have failed at the task.He saved exactly those whom He called . He drew them to Christ. (John6)

On the surface, these passages seem to contradict each other? But do they really?

I believe the key word in the first portion of that first passage is "foreknew". God knew without a doubt who would accept Christ as savior.

In the second passage, I have heard people say that the "all" doesn't mean every single person. I have never believed that.

Here is the 3rd passage...

Isa. 55:11[So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

EXACTLY !!!!

Read that verse very carefully. It says HIS WORD NEVER FAILS, NEVER.

So if it was Gods will to have ALL men without exception saved..then every single man that hears the gospel would be saved.

But we know that is not true. All those He INTENDS to save will hear and respond to the Gospel . his word NEVER returns void .
It is life to some and condemnation to others.

So, here is my belief, tying these 3 passages together, as well as other verses which do indeed say that certain people are chosen.

I think have come to believe that God does not actually call everyone. But I don't believe it's an arbitrary decision like "Oh, I want this one to go to Heaven", and "This one to go to hell", etc. I think God desires that everyone would accept him. I think that in his omniscience , God foreknew who would accept him as Christ, if he were indeed to call everyone. Because his word never returns void, he calls only those whom he foreknew would accept him. I believe that the term "pre-destination" doesn't have anything to do with non-Christians. I think it only applies to Christians; those whom accept Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

If we say that God predestines ...elects ..those He KNOWS with certainty will choose Him. Why would it be necessary to set them aside if they had already set themselves aside? That would be redundant.

If our election and predestination is based on the wise choice we made in future times that God sees through the tube of time..

Then it is not a Salvation of Gods grace or mercy but of mens work. It makes God the debtor of that men because he owes him that reward based on the mans choice .


The word Mercy means not to give a man what he really deserves...and all of us deserve condemnation . The minute we deserve it because we chose right it is not Mercy

 

[kickingsacredcows]

As I read through these pages I found myself praising our God for graciously calling me out of darkness in a way that could only point to his sovereign grace compelling me to believe.

I can't comprehend how there can be such misunderstanding on the issue of the election of God when the Apostle Paul addressed this EXACT issue in Romans Chapter 9 as follows:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Clearly the sovereignty of God's election cannot be called into question. There are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and vessels of of mercy, and I will ask of all you who rail against the word of God the same question Paul asked, "Who are YOU that replies against God!? Shall the thing formed say to the thing that formed it, "Why have you made me this way?""

Before Jacob and Esau were born, God CHOSE Jacob over Esau. The natural man says, "But that's not fair! They weren't born yet! God must be unjust!"

Please don't put yourselves in the same position as unbelievers by questioning the righteousness of God. God chooses whom he chooses, he gives mercy to whomever he chooses, and he IS JUST!

 

[orthotomeo]

ksc,

Please show in the passage you cited, where Paul made the eternal salvation of either Esau or Pharaoh the issue.

o.

 

[Ken]

Chappie, you have far more than one redeeming quality! You are a good and honest person, one who I have a great deal of love and respect for, and it is based on this respect and love that I bow out of any discussions concerning soteriology with you....

Blessings!

 

[Ken]

kicking... I am in total agreement with you... if individual election to salvation was not being discussed by Paul in Ro. 9, I just do not see why he would pose the questions he does from his imaginary objector.

 

[Ken]

O, please show me in the Ro 9 passage where Paul says that he is speaking of corporate election only.

 

[orthotomeo]

You already know what I'll say. But since I asked first, and since it's rude to answer a question with a question, KSC goes first. It's a very simple question - should be easy to prove, if you're correct.

o.

 

[rnmomof7]

ksc,

Please show in the passage you cited, where Paul made the eternal salvation of either Esau or Pharaoh the issue.

o.

God elects both men for salvation and for use .
God ordained pharaoh for use in His plan , God ordained the kidnapping of Joseph , and those he would meet in Egypt even Potipher's wife ) .

All things and people are ordained for a purpose in Gods plan . There also ordination to eternal life (Romans 9 & John 6 clearly presented )

All things corporal and eternal, individual and nations are ordained for Gods glory and plan

 

[Chappie]

As I read through these pages I found myself praising our God for graciously calling me out of darkness in a way that could only point to his sovereign grace compelling me to believe.
I can't comprehend how there can be such misunderstanding on the issue of the election of God when the Apostle Paul addressed this EXACT issue in Romans Chapter 9 as follows:

When the following passages make it from your head to your heart, by the grace of God; perhaps you will understand. When it is just as much about your fellow man as it is about you, perhaps, i pray, that you will understand..

Matthew 5
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Please don't put yourselves in the same position as unbelievers by questioning the righteousness of God. God chooses whom he chooses, he gives mercy to whomever he chooses, and he IS JUST!

That is precisely why I believe that salvational election is so egregious, it blackens and distorts the righteousness of God....

That which you caution others against, you do yourselves.

 

[Chappie]

Choice is choice Chappie ..the fact is God chose them for His own purposes.

Choice is choice Rnmomof, still your little cliché does not in anyway suggest that you have the slightest idea what the word means nor the mechanics thereof...

Asked to explain how the mechanics indigenous to the word “choice” are involved in God’s act of choosing in regard to election, and you will have no explanation. You will instead deny the very meaning and essence of the word because it will not fit your theology…

Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

The scriptures say that God chose, I will not deny scripture. Can I find the mechanics of the word “choice” active here? Yes!!! It’s simple. Choice demands criteria. So what is the criterion used here. The criteria that determined who was chosen was, they had to be descendents of Abraham. God chose them in fulfillment of his promise to Abraham…

Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

It is not individual worth or collective worth. The choice is according to His good pleasure.

That is correct, still I do not have to mutilate that which is indigenous to choice to understand how God chose. God chose to make a promise to Abraham according to his good pleasure. Those chosen fulfilled the criteria of God’s promise to Abraham.

To think that it must be because we somehow deserve it, based on our actions or character removes God's mercy from the equation.

They did not bend the knee to Baal because they were chosen by God. They were not chosen because of it.

That is not what the bible says……

All of us make decisions (choices)based on our preferences , those preferences are part of our being from creation. The 7,000 had exactly the character that God had created in them. Their choice was not a surprise to Him. He made them in such a way that they could and would discern the truth and act in a way that was ordained.

If God created them with a defective character, then God is responsible. If God created the 7,000 to obey, and the rest to disobey. Then all is as God planned it. In order for you to have a good god, you must first make him evil. In order to get glory from the seven thousand, he has to burn and torture the multitude. You say that they deserve it, yet you are dumfounded when it comes to establishing accountability. All of a sudden, itsa mystery…

The need to find a reason why God chooses some comes from our carnal /sinful nature that demands we know everything , and understand it.

The scriptures were given to us for our understanding and edification. When using the word “Choice”, one is not speaking in tongues. God has given us the word and the interpretation thereof. You do not understand “Choice”, others do: Perhaps you should listen instead of preaching the gospel of “I not understand” and expecting others to join you in what you do not understand….

Remember what Satan told eve? Eat this and you will be like gods knowing good from evil...the same desire resides in us today.

Go back and read your bible, you will find out that it says, “and their eyes were opened. Today we know good from evil. That is precisely why I know that Reformed Theology is wrong..

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat:
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

God acts because He acts. That is all we know and can know.

We can also know that if we in anyway deserve to be saved, it ceases to be mercy.

God is in charge of all creation and all events. He controls our human life and our eternal life. He uses men as tools to accomplish His will on earth, and He chooses people as His adopted children in Christ.

God is in charge and causes everything; still you want to hold those that go to hell accountable for what God did. As long as this unscriptural stuff is what you choose to represent Reformed Theology, that long I will know that it is heresy.

They may or may not be the same people ...but all creation and history and events belong to Him. Even the fleas that covered Egypt are subject to His command.

I remember hearing a story from Corrie ten Boom

While imprisoned she prayed to have the infestation of fleas that tortured her removed, but it seemed that God did not hear her prayer.

When she was at last released one of the Guards told her that they never checked her building because no one wanted to go in there because of the fleas.

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. He was sovereign all creation then and is sovereign over all creation, and that includes our lives here and in eternity.

Rom 11:6** And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The way that I heard the story is that they locked her in a cell when she tried to enter the country, they would not let her go out and witness to anyone. So she witnessed to the man that had been chosen to guard her. He went on to be one of the greatest proponents of Christianity that Russia has known since that day.

So what do the fleas have to do with anything? Did she witness to the fleas and they began to spread the gospel or what…

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Slave2SinNoMore
The problem is that foreknow also means predestinate:
AV - foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1; 5

From the greek proginosko

1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate


AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
*****everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
*****no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
*****whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
*****any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

As you see it is not a "clear a read" as some think.


In the case of the Greek the word all can mean some of all kinds, which is sometimes how the Jews understood the word PAS.
The Jews had a great distaste for the gentile nations. So when Jesus and His followers preached that He had come for all men , they understood He meant that the God of Israel was also the God of the heathen Gentile nations. They were no longer the exclusive people of God .

The understanding is clarified in Revelations

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


As an example consider this verse.

Luk 2:3
And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

That all does not mean all men without exception . The " all "here were the Jews. A sub part of the whole of the Roman empire.

We have to consider if it was His will that all men to be saved they would be ... Is His arm too short to save ?

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

If it was the will of all men to be saved,He would not have failed at the task.He saved exactly those whom He called . He drew them to Christ. (John6)



EXACTLY !!!!

Read that verse very carefully. It says HIS WORD NEVER FAILS, NEVER.

So if it was Gods will to have ALL men without exception saved..then every single man that hears the gospel would be saved.


If our election and predestination is based on the wise choice we made in future times that God sees through the tube of time..

Then it is not a Salvation of Gods grace or mercy but of mens work. It makes God the debtor of that men because he owes him that reward based on the mans choice .

But in every definition you gave, there are also definitions that back up my argument as well as yours:

One of Proginsko's definitions is "to have knowledge before hand"
2 of Pas's definitions are "everyone" and "everything"

Also, just because PAS is used in the way you said in the 2 verse cited, how does that tie in with the Timothy verse, to make you think it necessarily has the same definition? Was Pas used to mean "everyone" or "every thing" in the Bible at all? I would think so. In fact, the Holman CSB Bible (which has been touted for its accuracy to the original text) translates the verse thusly:

"who wants everyone to be saved"

Also, why do you use the word "wills" instead of "desires" for 1 Tim 2:4. I'm not sure I've ever read a translation which has "wills" instead of "desires". "Wills" does not have the same definition as "desires". I'm not sure I've ever read a translation which has "wills" instead of "desires". If the word is "desires", then it's more akin to "wishes" than "wills". In fact, the Holman CSB Bible says God "wants" everyone to be saved. And if that is the case, do you think every thing God wants to happen does, and that nothing God doesn't want to happen actually happens? Think about that carefully, because you've got to ask yourself - Does God want us to sin? It happens. And you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God wants no man to sin.

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Slave2SinNoMore

redundant.

If our election and predestination is based on the wise choice we made in future times that God sees through the tube of time..

Then it is not a Salvation of Gods grace or mercy but of mens work. It makes God the debtor of that men because he owes him that reward based on the mans choice .


The word Mercy means not to give a man what he really deserves...and all of us deserve condemnation . The minute we deserve it because we chose right it is not Mercy

No, a free gift is a gift is a gift, no matter how you slice it.

Let's carry on with the "slice" term to provide an example:

Imagine you've been a bad boy all day long and your mommy offers you a slice of pie because she loves you. She offers it to you but says you don't have to take it. If you accept it, does the very act of accepting it mean you somehow now deserve the slice of pie? No, the grace of her gift to you is in no way lessened just because she didn't force you to take it. It is a still a free gift of grace to a little bad boy who doesn't deserve it.

 

[rnmomof7]

But in every definition you gave, there are also definitions that back up my argument as well as yours:

One of Proginsko's definitions is "to have knowledge before hand"
2 of Pas's definitions are "everyone" and "everything"

Also, just because PAS is used in the way you said in the 2 verse cited, how does that tie in with the Timothy verse, to make you think it necessarily has the same definition? Was Pas used to mean "everyone" or "every thing" in the Bible at all? I would think so. In fact, the Holman CSB Bible (which has been touted for its accuracy to the original text) translates the verse thusly:

I have a challenge for you.
Count scriptures where all means all of all sorts

I gave 2 as an example . not a total count.

Pas also means whosoever ...that is not ALL without exception. It is a limited all.

"who wants everyone to be saved"

Also, why do you use the word "wills" instead of "desires" for 1 Tim 2:4.

I cut and past from the KJV ask them

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I'm not sure I've ever read a translation which has "wills" instead of "desires".

You need to get out more :>))

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/popup/1078424338-7733.html

"Wills" does not have the same definition as "desires". I'm not sure I've ever read a translation which has "wills" instead of "desires". If the word is "desires", then it's more akin to "wishes" than "wills". In fact, the Holman CSB Bible says God "wants" everyone to be saved. And if that is the case, do you think every thing God wants to happen does, and that nothing God doesn't want to happen actually happens? Think about that carefully, because you've got to ask yourself - Does God want us to sin? It happens. And you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God wants no man to sin.

*Strong's Number: * 2309
*Browse Lexicon*







Original Word
Word Origin

qevlw
apparently strengthened from the alternate form of (138)

Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Thelo
3:44,318

Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech

thel'-o* *
Verb



*Definition



to will, have in mind, intend
to be resolved or determined, to purpose
to desire, to wish
to love
to like to do a thing, be fond of doing


to take delight in, have pleasure



*


*King James Word Usage - Total: 210

will/would*159, will/would have*16, desire*13, desirous*3, list*3, to will*2, miscellaneous*4

*



* KJV Verse Count*

Matthew
41

Mark
25

Luke
27

John
21

Acts
15

Romans
13

1*Corinthians
17

2*Corinthians
8

Galatians
9

Philippians
1

Colossians
3

1*Thessalonians
2

2*Thessalonians
1

1*Timothy
3

2*Timothy
1

Philemon
1

Hebrews
4

James
2

1*Peter
2

2*Peter
1

3*John
1

Revelation

 

[rnmomof7]

But in every definition you gave, there are also definitions that back up my argument as well as yours:

One of Proginsko's definitions is "to have knowledge before hand"

Ro 8:29* *
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30* *
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

*Strong's Number: * 4309
*Browse Lexicon*


proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:715,119 from 4253 and 1097
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 5
AV - foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1; 5


Of course God foreknows all those He predestinates , scripture is clear on that .

He fore-knew Jacob and Esau and He elected Jacob before either could do good or evil


"Before you were born I knew you"

God foreknows us as a man knows his wife , with great intimacy.

But the election of Jacob had nothing to do with God looking down the tunnel of Time.

He elected Him based on His good pleasure







Original Word
Word Origin

proorivzw
from (4253) and (3724)

Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Proorizo
5:456,728

Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech

pro-or-id'-zo* *
Verb



*Definition



to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand



*


*King James Word Usage - Total: 6

predestinate*4, determine before*1, ordain*1

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

rnmomof7, you've given me plenty to chew on. That's good. We all need to be ready to show reasons for what we believe.

 

[augustine32]

Also in I Tim 2 you must look at the context. See in vs. 1 we are to pray for all men. Does that mean all men without exception as in praying everyday "God, please save every man in the world" or does it mean pray for men of every tribe, tongue and nation. Look at another example of this related to the context of salvation. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men" Does that mean all men see the grace of God in Christ? Obviously that is not true as some never hear the Gospel, but it could be translated some of all types with relation to the discussion of old men, old women, young men, young women and slaves in the first part of the chapter. All of these different categories of people have had God's grace in the Gospel presented to them and that is what enables them to do the things that are respective to their place in life.

 

[Chappie]

Also in I Tim 2 you must look at the context. See in vs. 1 we are to pray for all men. Does that mean all men without exception as in praying everyday "God, please save every man in the world" or does it mean pray for men of every tribe, tongue and nation.

It means what it says. Pray not only for a select few. Pray for all men.

Look at another example of this related to the context of salvation. Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men" Does that mean all men see the grace of God in Christ?

Again it means precisely what it says. The Grace of God has appeared to all men.

Obviously that is not true as some never hear the Gospel, but it could be translated some of all types with relation to the discussion of old men, old women, young men, young women and slaves in the first part of the chapter. All of these different categories of people have had God's grace in the Gospel presented to them and that is what enables them to do the things that are respective to their place in life.

From where do you get your information that obviously Titus 2:11 is not true and needs to be modified to say what it did not say. That conclusion is necessary in order to validate election. It does not stand on its own merits.

God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform. Just because you may not understand how God did it does not mean that it is not true. Titus 2:11 is true without any help from man...

You invalidate a passage, I invalidate one, and another invalidates another; pretty soon the bible is nothing but inconsistent chaos. I believe that if God were refering to different catagories of men, somewhere in scripture he would have stated it. Would he have left something that important concerning salvation up to man's intrepretation? I don't think so.

What you are doing is not relying on what is precisely stated in the bible, instead it is molded and squeezed to fit mans theology... Would you need it to be true if your views did not encompass election? Look at just how much baggage you have added to that passage. I assure you that it is more than is allowed by scripture. To the one that adds to or subtracts from the words of the bible, to him is added the curses in the bible....