Calvinistic view of Romans 9 refuted

TaylorSexton

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Not sure I agree with you, but I think I do.

One thing I am fairly certain about is the fact that what most call Arminianism today is for all practical purposes open theism. I know of many "Arminians" who now practically deny the foreknowledge of God when they realize that exhaustive and infallible foreknowledge presents the same binds that Calvinistic predestination does. I mean, let's be real, if God knows the future exhaustively and infallibly, then creatures have absolutely no libertarian free will, because everything they will do has already been determined to happen in the past, without fail or other possibility, otherwise either God does not possess absolute foreknowledge, or his foreknowledge is fallible—both notions are blasphemy, in my opinion. It is absolutely no different than the "issues" predestination posits.
 
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davidcrosby

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So, what you are saying is that you are a completely morally neutral creature unaffected by the Fall, and God's grace is powerless and accomplishes nothing.
So now I'm being told what I'm saying... man, try to have a little fellowship and ya get your words (along with Scripture I'm sure) all twisted around.
Anyway, may y'all be blessed with all the riches of His glory. -in and with the love of Christ.
Just a saved by grace Christian - outta here.
 
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TaylorSexton

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So now I'm being told what I'm saying... man, try to have a little fellowship and ya get your words (along with Scripture I'm sure) all twisted around.

It's a legitimate statement. Does God's grace accomplish anything, or must we accept it or give it permission to work before it can do anything? You appeared to be saying the latter. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. Don't just run away.

Also, don't act like you were just looking "to have a little fellowship," either. You were directly challenging Calvinistic belief (which is genuinely wonderful; we need that, it's what these forums are for). I was merely interacting with what you were saying. But, if the slightest bit of interaction causes you to flee, then I guess I can't do anything about that; it just sorta defeats the purpose of theological discussion (which is what you were clearly trying to have).

No ill will is intended here, brother.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Probably not a good idea, honestly. I have been known not only to be completely wrong, but to have no blinkin' clue what I'm talking about.
This will change soon. (or may change soon)
If I am wrong, prove me wrong.
It's better I think to let you do that, if you are wrong.
If you are right, Yhwh will speak for you.
Also, don't act like you were just looking "to have a little fellowship," either. You were directly challenging Calvinistic belief (which is genuinely wonderful; we need that, it's what these forums are for)
If Yhwh Permits: To be seen..... ... ... (tested to see what is true, according to Scripture)...
 
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TaylorSexton

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This will change soon. (or may change soon)

It's better I think to let you do that, if you are wrong.
If you are right, Yhwh will speak for you.

If Yhwh Permits: To be seen..... ... ... (tested to see what is true, according to Scripture)...

No offense, but I truly have a very difficult time following your responses, partly because of the lack of proper grammar/syntax, partly because of the gratuitous use of punctuation. All three of these responses made absolutely no sense neither as replies (i.e., they seemed completely unrelated to their quoted statements) nor as standalone statements. In short, I am unsure what you are saying.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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No offense, but I truly have a very difficult time following your responses, partly because of the lack of proper grammar/syntax, partly because of the gratuitous use of punctuation. All three of these responses made absolutely no sense neither as replies (i.e., they seemed completely unrelated to their quoted statements) nor as standalone statements. In short, I am unsure what you are saying.
After reading this post,
I went to check again (I forgot) what section of the forum this is.
Sigh(more from being tired right now, than anything else, and from knowing how long this may take)...
Yhwh Willing, (as we will see worked out),
whether in some other section or even some other forum,
this will all be clearly explained.
I don't want to challenge the rules here, even if allowed.
 
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davidcrosby

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Discussion is good. It's the argumentive debate I'm not interested in. My thoughts though are kind of like Noah by faith built the boat that brought salvation because he obeyed God and God shut him in. At that point, the die was cast; Noah, his family, safe inside. The others, on the outside; it's too late. That marked an interesting day between the mercy, grace and patience of God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Discussion is good.
Can be, Yhwh willing and submitted to and seeking Him, Yes.
However, much has been very restricted by rules everywhere we live.
(Have you watched what happened to most "whistle-blowers" all over the world in the last 150 years ? ) (It's often NOT GOOD).....
 
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now faith

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One thing I am fairly certain about is the fact that what most call Arminianism today is for all practical purposes open theism. I know of many "Arminians" who now practically deny the foreknowledge of God when they realize that exhaustive and infallible foreknowledge presents the same binds that Calvinistic predestination does. I mean, let's be real, if God knows the future exhaustively and infallibly, then creatures have absolutely no libertarian free will, because everything they will do has already been determined to happen in the past, without fail or other possibility, otherwise either God does not possess absolute foreknowledge, or his foreknowledge is fallible—both notions are blasphemy, in my opinion. It is absolutely no different than the "issues" predestination posits.

Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same.

If I have a child and know he will murder someone,and I know who the someone is,as well at what age the murder will happen ,does my foreknowledge mean that I purposed the child to murder?

Quote: John Piper
God governs "the choices of human beings", but without "cancelling [their] freedom and responsibility" unquote

Simple Definition of govern
  • : to officially control and lead (a group of people) : to make decisions about laws, taxes, social programs, etc., for (a country, state, etc.)

  • : to control the way that (something) is done

  • : to control or guide the actions of (someone or something)
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Definition of freedom
  1. 1: the quality or state of being free: asa : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or actionb : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independencec : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care>d : ease, facility <spoke the language with freedom>e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered withfreedom>f : improper familiarityg : boldness of conception or executionh : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>

  2. 2a : a political right
Source Merriam Webster.

The statement by Piper in my opinion is a contradiction of terms.

That does not mean I agree with Open Theism, although definition of Open Thesim does vary from different sources.

We look at God within the confines of our earthly dimensions ,but with God all things are possible.
 
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twin1954

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Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same.

If I have a child and know he will murder someone,and I know who the someone is,as well at what age the murder will happen ,does my foreknowledge mean that I purposed the child to murder?

Quote: John Piper
God governs "the choices of human beings", but without "cancelling [their] freedom and responsibility" unquote

Simple Definition of govern
  • : to officially control and lead (a group of people) : to make decisions about laws, taxes, social programs, etc., for (a country, state, etc.)

  • : to control the way that (something) is done

  • : to control or guide the actions of (someone or something)
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Definition of freedom
  1. 1: the quality or state of being free: asa : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or actionb : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independencec : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care>d : ease, facility <spoke the language with freedom>e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered withfreedom>f : improper familiarityg : boldness of conception or executionh : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>

  2. 2a : a political right
Source Merriam Webster.

The statement by Piper in my opinion is a contradiction of terms.

That does not mean I agree with Open Theism, although definition of Open Thesim does vary from different sources.

We look at God within the confines of our earthly dimensions ,but with God all things are possible.
Taken as a stand alone statement yes Mr. Piper's words are a contradiction. Since you didn't reference where it came from we cannot look at the context to find out exactly what he meant.

If You study the Bible at all you will notice that God's foreknowledge is never connected with things it is always connected with people. He foreknows people. He foreordains things.

Calvinists do not deny that men make choices but only that their choices are free from their natural inclinations as sinners. Libertarian free will, and you might notice that almost all unbelievers hold to free will because it puts them in control of their destiny, is a farce and a sham. Man is no more free to go outside of his nature than a dog is. A dog must be a dog and a man must be a sinner.

The one thing that separates us from dogs and all other animals of Creation is that we were made as moral creatures with a conscience. We know we are sinners yet lie to ourselves and deny it. A dog has no such conscience or moral nature.
 
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twin1954

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Hello Twin 1954 , my reference was a comparison between Open Theism and Calvinism on Wickopedia ,they used Mr Pipers statement in a graph form.
The problem is that the conclusions are wrong based on a misunderstanding of foreknowledge and foreordination.

God knows all that will happen because He has foreordained that it come to pass exactly as it does for the good of His people and the glory of His great name. We may not be able to see the reasons why it glorifies God and does good to His people but that is the clear teaching of the Scriptures.

(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

(Rom 11:36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 
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TaylorSexton

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Foreknowledge and predestination are not the same.

This is true in the most common sense. Your example proves this. For humans foreknowledge does not equal predestination. But, just because this is true of humans does not mean it is true of God. This is because human foreknowledge is qualitatively different than God's foreknowledge, and humans cannot predestine anything at all, whereas God can and does.

First, human foreknowledge is always fallible. In a very real sense, I could argue that humans have no foreknowledge, but rather have fore-estimation. This is because there is not a single thing in this created universe that human can possible foreknow. Rather, he can make a guess as to whether something will happen, sometimes with a great deal of accuracy. However, foreknowledge is impossible for a human being. James 4:13-16 makes this clear.

Second, since God's foreknowledge is infallible and exhaustive, one has to ask the question, "From where did this foreknowledge come?" Well, the only answer one can give without doing violence to the nature of God is to say, as "twin1954" did above:
God knows all that will happen because He has foreordained that it come to pass... (emphasis added)

If one denies this, then they affirm that God at some point learned something, which is blasphemy and would deny foreknowledge in the first place, which destroys the original statement. So, to deny predestination is to deny foreknowledge altogether, which is why, for God (not human beings), foreknowledge is foreordination (predestination).
 
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now faith

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This is true in the most common sense. Your example proves this. For humans foreknowledge does not equal predestination. But, just because this is true of humans does not mean it is true of God. This is because human foreknowledge is qualitatively different than God's foreknowledge, and humans cannot predestine anything at all, whereas God can and does.

First, human foreknowledge is always fallible. In a very real sense, I could argue that humans have no foreknowledge, but rather have fore-estimation. This is because there is not a single thing in this created universe that human can possible foreknow. Rather, he can make a guess as to whether something will happen, sometimes with a great deal of accuracy. However, foreknowledge is impossible for a human being. James 4:13-16 makes this clear.

Second, since God's foreknowledge is infallible and exhaustive, one has to ask the question, "From where did this foreknowledge come?" Well, the only answer one can give without doing violence to the nature of God is to say, as "twin1954" did above:


If one denies this, then they affirm that God at some point learned something, which is blasphemy and would deny foreknowledge in the first place, which destroys the original statement. So, to deny predestination is to deny foreknowledge altogether, which is why, for God (not human beings), foreknowledge is foreordination (predestination).

I am not denying your statements,but as well I cannot limit God.
What purpose would God have to place the tree of knowledge in the garden,then tell Adam not to eat?
God neither respects or tempts any man.

When we look at God being made flesh in Christ we see God as a man who layed
down his life and set aside his power to destroy his persecutors.

God and Christ are one as well the Holy Spirit.

John: 10. 37. If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Hypothetical question :would it be possible for God having died for our sins,to set aside his foreknowledge and allow mankind to choose life in Christ or choose death and eternal seperation from God?

There is another factor to look at: what is the purpose of Satan?
We know God Tempts no man ,yet God allowed his incarnated being to be tempted from Satan.
Satan knew if he as much as fell down Angel's would prevent his harm,yet God was made of flesh and Blood.

Demons cried out before him,oh son of David it is not yet our time, and they tremble at his name.

What is the purpose of our persecution from the under world.

James: 1. 12. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Peter: 1. 1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

One more consideration is the mercy of God ,and being saved by grace through faith.

Just some things I have pondered I do not want to debate or have any gotcha motives.
 
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now faith

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One last question;
This is a philosophical one.

If we believe man has complete free will in all his choices ,it is just to assume we have denied God's Power for intervention there by limiting God.

Does the same assumption apply if we understand that God must have foreknowledge and predestine the lives of men.

Would both premises end with the same fallacy,that God must do as we have perceived him to do?
 
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Sovereign Grace

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Amen, my point being that I'm the one doing the deciding if I want to be of the Bride of Christ (the Church/His Body).
Yes, He chose me like everyone else that nun should parish. But it's up to me to except.
That is not anywhere remotely close to being biblical. God chose His sheep from the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] Our sins were given to our Scapegoat, our Propitiator, our Reedemer, and He atoned for every sin His sheep had, is, and will ever commit. Those who truly believe have been regenerated via the Spirit of God, given a new heart, a heart of flesh[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26].

If left up to yourself, you would never decide to follow Jesus. You're sincursed, wicked heart would have precluded you from making that choice. It is only after you were regenerated that you decided to accept Christ. So, we do in a sense, accept Christ, but Christ must have first accepted you.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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One last question;
This is a philosophical one.

If we believe man has complete free will in all his choices ,it is just to assume we have denied God's Power for intervention there by limiting God.

Does the same assumption apply if we understand that God must have foreknowledge and predestine the lives of men.

Would both premises end with the same fallacy,that God must do as we have perceived him to do?
You are ascribing to man something that God Himself does not possess, a free will. God can not sin, so He can not will Himself to sin. Why? His nature precludes Him from sinning. He can not lie because every word He says is truth. No matter how hard He would try, He can not sin. Man does not possess this mythical free will because they are bound by their nature. If a man puts a gun up to your head and says "your money or your life", you'd freely give it to him, because, even though you don't desire to lose your money, your life is more important to you than your wallet. So you will choose that which is most pleasing to you. Not that being robbed at gunpoint is a pleasnt thing, but it sure beats being shot in the coconut. ;)
 
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TaylorSexton

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would it be possible for God having died for our sins,to set aside his foreknowledge and allow mankind to choose life in Christ or choose death and eternal seperation from God?

No.

Does the same assumption apply if we understand that God must have foreknowledge and predestine the lives of men.

No.

Would both premises end with the same fallacy,that God must do as we have perceived him to do?

No. We are not trying to say anything about God other than what he says about himself in his own revelation.
 
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