Calvinistic view of Romans 9 refuted

[Sovereign Grace]

We all should agree God is omnipotent.

I would disagree that God does not have free will.
Simply by his mercy,grace,and love we see God's freewill.
Remember the verse: Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated.

We know God's will through his love for mankind.
But God is not bound by time he created it and he chose to create the Heavens and earth.
God is not predestine because he is omnipresent.

But thanks for the conversation,
God Bless all here.

Can God sin? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If God can sin, then we would have no faith in the bible, because we would not know if He is lying to us or not. I take solace, comfort in knowing God is sinless, can not sin, can not choose to sin, and this proves that every word we have in the bible is truth.

 

[TaylorSexton]

To have free will is to choose good or bad...iow...sin or not to sin. God can not sin. He can NOT choose to sin. God does NOT possess a freewill. So to say we have free will is wrong. We always choose according to our nature.

I would argue that God does indeed have a totally free will, but not because he can choose to sin or not sin. I say this because one has to ask, when God does a thing, is that thing good because it itself is good, or is it good because God does it? I believe it is the latter. Otherwise, if something God does is good by virtue of its own merit, then that would mean that there would have to be a standard of right and wrong outside of God himself, which I don't think any orthodox Christian would affirm. Therefore, God can do absolutely anything contingent upon his will—absolutely anything he chooses. It is not that God cannot sin per se; it is that anything he does is by definition not sin because he did it, for he is the standard of goodness.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To have free will is to choose good or bad...iow...sin or not to sin. God can not sin. He can NOT choose to sin. God does NOT possess a freewill. So to say we have free will is wrong. We always choose according to our nature.

Yet God in His Freewill and Granting Freewill says that is wrong.

 

[twin1954]

Yet God in His Freewill and Granting Freewill says that is wrong.

God is the only Being that actually possesses a free will. Whatever He does is good and right. The Scriptures clearly tell us that God does whatever He will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the Earth, Dan. 4:35, Psa. 115:3.

God will not sin because it is not His nature nor is it something he desires. All He does is good that is why He is called God.

Though He has determined to allow men such as Hitler to do what he did in his time it was for a good purpose ordained by God. We may not know why it is good but it will show itself to be so in eternity.

For a man to question or judge God is foolishness and folly. He knows everything that can happen in every circumstance or influence. That is what omniscience is. His wisdom takes in all that can be and all that will happen given the right influence or circumstance.

His attributes of love, grace, mercy and righteousness are guided by His wisdom and omniscience.

We simply cannot grasp the wondrous wisdom in the love of God to do us good and glorify Himself in infinite mercy and grace. What a wonder it is to consider the greatness of His love when we think on how wise He acts in love to us who are His chosen. I am humbled by just writing this.

 

[DeaconDean]

God is the only Being that actually possesses a free will. Whatever He does is good and right. The Scriptures clearly tell us that God does whatever He will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the Earth, Dan. 4:35, Psa. 115:3.

God will not sin because it is not His nature nor is it something he desires. All He does is good that is why He is called God.

Though He has determined to allow men such as Hitler to do what he did in his time it was for a good purpose ordained by God. We may not know why it is good but it will show itself to be so in eternity.

For a man to question or judge God is foolishness and folly. He knows everything that can happen in every circumstance or influence. That is what omniscience is. His wisdom takes in all that can be and all that will happen given the right influence or circumstance.

His attributes of love, grace, mercy and righteousness are guided by His wisdom and omniscience.

We simply cannot grasp the wondrous wisdom in the love of God to do us good and glorify Himself in infinite mercy and grace. What a wonder it is to consider the greatness of His love when we think on how wise He acts in love to us who are His chosen. I am humbled by just writing this.

Amen!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

To have free will is to choose good or bad...iow...sin or not to sin. God can not sin. He can NOT choose to sin. God does NOT possess a freewill. So to say we have free will is wrong. We always choose according to our nature.

Man indeed does have a "free will".

The debate comes as to how "free" his "free will" is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

I would argue that God does indeed have a totally free will, but not because he can choose to sin or not sin. I say this because one has to ask, when God does a thing, is that thing good because it itself is good, or is it good because God does it? I believe it is the latter. Otherwise, if something God does is good by virtue of its own merit, then that would mean that there would have to be a standard of right and wrong outside of God himself, which I don't think any orthodox Christian would affirm. Therefore, God can do absolutely anything contingent upon his will—absolutely anything he chooses. It is not that God cannot sin per se; it is that anything he does is by definition not sin because he did it, for he is the standard of goodness.

Here is what I am trying to say. God can not sin. His nature precludes Him from doing so. Everything He does is right, perfect, immpeccable, holy, &c. His nature precludes Him from doing anything that even would remotely be accused as sin. God has killed many ppl, yet He has nevered murdered anyone. Killing someone is not sin, murdering them is. He can, and does, take vengence, and His vengence is not sin. If we take vengence into our hands, we sin. So, God's nature precludes Him from having the ability to even choose to sin...He just can't do it.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Man indeed does have a "free will".

The debate comes as to how "free" his "free will" is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Free means without restrictions.

Man indeed does have a "free will".

The debate comes as to how "free" his "free will" is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

From theopedia...

Free Will

Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition,"^[1]^ and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.

According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices, but in his natural state he necessarily acts in accordance with his fallen nature. Man willingly makes choices that flow from the heart, and sin is also always attributed to the desires of the heart (James 1:13-15). When a person turns to Christ, he does so not because of his own "free will", but because God has supernaturally enabled and moved him to do so through regeneration. God never coerces man's will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is a doctrinal distinction between the theologies of Calvinism and Arminianism: In Arminianism, God saves those who believe of their own free will. In Calvinism, God saves those who willingly believe as a result of sovereign enablement by the regenerating work of the Spirit.

Rather than man's will being free, Jesus tells us that, "everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin," (John 8:34). The heart, until born again, is "deceitful above all things, and desperately sick" (Jeremiah 17:9). God saw in man that "every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44).

Man is most free in heaven, where he is morally unable to sin. True freedom isn't freedom to sin, but freedomfrom sin.

So, as we can see, our wills our bound by our natures. A person in an 8'x 8' cell freely moves within that cell, but the prison bars preclude him/her from moving outside those bars. That is fallen man. They freely move within the confines of their fallen nature, but that fallen nature precludes them from moving freely outside their fallen nature. That, my Brother, is not free will in the least.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Here is what I am trying to say. God can not sin. His nature precludes Him from doing so. Everything He does is right, perfect, immpeccable, holy, &c. His nature precludes Him from doing anything that even would remotely be accused as sin. God has killed many ppl, yet He has nevered murdered anyone. Killing someone is not sin, murdering them is. He can, and does, take vengence, and His vengence is not sin. If we take vengence into our hands, we sin. So, God's nature precludes Him from having the ability to even choose to sin...He just can't do it.

And I completely agree. I am just asking a question that takes us a little further. Is God unable to sin because there are certain things his nature forbids him to do, or is it because God, in all that he does, is the very definition of good?

Perhaps an example will help:

We all know the sky is blue. We also know God cannot lie. So, is God unable to say, "The sky is red," simply because his words would not then conform to reality (and thus be untruth), or because if he were to say, "The sky is red," that reality would have to conform to his words, thus making his words truth?

Do you see the difference? The former would indicate that there is some external standard of right and wrong to which even God is subject, while the latter indicates that God himself, in all that he does, is the standard of right and wrong.

It seems to me that there are two ways an individual could be prevented from lying. The first way would be like how Fletcher in the film Liar, Liar is prevented from lying. He is simply incapable of saying anything that is not indeed true. The second way is different. If I had a secret power by which everything I said comes to pass (a power which God indeed possesses), then I am prevented from lying not because I am incapable of saying anything which is not indeed true (i.e., my words do not conform to reality), but because everything I say comes to pass (i.e., reality conforms to my words), thus making my words the things that define truth. Again, the former is because there is a standard outside of Fletcher that dictates what he can and cannot say, while the latter simply reverses that. The former removes the individuals free will, while the latter preserves it. I believe that, in this way, God has a truly free will.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

And I completely agree. I am just asking a question that takes us a little further. Is God unable to sin because there are certain things his nature forbids him to do, or is it because God, in all that he does, is the very definition of good?

Perhaps an example will help:

We all know the sky is blue. We also know God cannot lie. So, is God unable to say, "The sky is red," simply because his words would not then conform to reality (and thus be untruth), or because if he were to say, "The sky is red," that reality would have to conform to his words, thus making his words truth?

Do you see the difference? The former would indicate that there is some external standard of right and wrong to which even God is subject, while the latter indicates that God himself, in all that he does, is the standard of right and wrong.

It seems to me that there are two ways an individual could be prevented from lying. The first way would be like how Fletcher in the film Liar, Liar is prevented from lying. He is simply incapable of saying anything that is not indeed true. The second way is different. If I had a secret power by which everything I said comes to pass (a power which God indeed possesses), then I am prevented from lying not because I am incapable of saying anything which is not indeed true (i.e., my words do not conform to reality), but because everything I say comes to pass (i.e., reality conforms to my words), thus making my words the things that define truth. Again, the former is because there is a standard outside of Fletcher that dictates what he can and cannot say, while the latter simply reverses that. The former removes the individuals free will, while the latter preserves it. I believe that, in this way, God has a truly free will.

I hope that makes sense.

I tend to think we may be talking past each other to a certain extent. We both agree that God can not sin because His holy attributes...holy nature...precludes Him from doing so. I see it that He is bound to His holy attributes...His holy nature...and you see it differently...but both of us agree that He can not sin.

FYI...my last name is Fletcher.

 

[TaylorSexton]

I tend to think we may be talking past each other to a certain extent.

I believe so. But, that's fine. As you said, we both agree that God cannot sin. I guess I am just asking a deeper question regarding why God cannot sin. I fear this may be more philosophical than scriptural. Who knows? Lol.

FYI...my last name is Fletcher.

Is this coincidence or providence...?

 

[now faith]

What is our earthly perspective, and the reality of God may be different.
Some how I have a hard time saying God cannot.

Isaiah: 45. 4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

 

[now faith]

Can God sin? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If God can sin, then we would have no faith in the bible, because we would not know if He is lying to us or not. I take solace, comfort in knowing God is sinless, can not sin, can not choose to sin, and this proves that every word we have in the bible is truth.

As far as man can comprehend, and place God in our arena of understanding.
That's our nature we determine truth by what we have been taught and by our individual experience.
Yet God tells us he doesn't abide in our understanding of his nature.
He created free will along with everything else in our universe.
We are temporal beings He is eternal.
We cannot even explain the Alpha and Omega of the all mighty haveing no orgin or end.

Isaiah: 55. 8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

 

[DeaconDean]

Free means without restrictions.



From theopedia...




So, as we can see, our wills our bound by our natures. A person in an 8'x 8' cell freely moves within that cell, but the prison bars preclude him/her from moving outside those bars. That is fallen man. They freely move within the confines of their fallen nature, but that fallen nature precludes them from moving freely outside their fallen nature. That, my Brother, is not free will in the least.

Before another word is said, an understanding on your view of "free-will" is called for.

You quote this:

"Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition,"^[1]^ and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.

According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices, but in his natural state he necessarily acts in accordance with his fallen nature. Man willingly makes choices that flow from the heart, and sin is also always attributed to the desires of the heart (James 1:13-15). When a person turns to Christ, he does so not because of his own "free will", but because God has supernaturally enabled and moved him to do so through regeneration. God never coerces man's will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit.
"

But you advocate this:

"So, as we can see, our wills our bound by our natures. A person in an 8'x 8' cell freely moves within that cell, but the prison bars preclude him/her from moving outside those bars. That is fallen man. They freely move within the confines of their fallen nature, but that fallen nature precludes them from moving freely outside their fallen nature. That, my Brother, is not free will in the least."

You appear to advocate that man is free in most directions. Free to make a choice as to sin or not. And likewise free to believe or not.

So I'm just waiting to see what your definition of "free-will" is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[twin1954]

Before another word is said, an understanding on your view of "free-will" is called for.

You quote this:

"Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition,"^[1]^ and specifically that these "free will" choices are not ultimately predestined by God.

According to the Bible, however, the choices of man are not only ultimately determined by God, but morally determined by one's nature. Man is indeed a free moral agent and freely makes choices, but in his natural state he necessarily acts in accordance with his fallen nature. Man willingly makes choices that flow from the heart, and sin is also always attributed to the desires of the heart (James 1:13-15). When a person turns to Christ, he does so not because of his own "free will", but because God has supernaturally enabled and moved him to do so through regeneration. God never coerces man's will, rather God gives the ability to believe through the work of the Holy Spirit.
"

But you advocate this:

"So, as we can see, our wills our bound by our natures. A person in an 8'x 8' cell freely moves within that cell, but the prison bars preclude him/her from moving outside those bars. That is fallen man. They freely move within the confines of their fallen nature, but that fallen nature precludes them from moving freely outside their fallen nature. That, my Brother, is not free will in the least."

You appear to advocate that man is free in most directions. Free to make a choice as to sin or not. And likewise free to believe or not.

So I'm just waiting to see what your definition of "free-will" is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean, I think you are misunderstanding what Convicted 1 one is saying. I know both of you and you are actually agreeing. What he is saying is exactly what you are saying but only saying it differently.

Man's free will is bound by his moral nature and Convicted 1 is in no way advocating an ability to choose between good and evil apart from being bound by moral nature. He believes as you and I do.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean, I think you are misunderstanding what Convicted 1 one is saying. I know both of you and you are actually agreeing. What he is saying is exactly what you are saying but only saying it differently.

Man's free will is bound by his moral nature and Convicted 1 is in no way advocating an ability to choose between good and evil apart from being bound by moral nature. He believes as you and I do.

That being the case, he just to me came off as clear as mud.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[now faith]

One question:
It has been said we have inherited a sin nature from Adam.

Here is the passage to support that statment:

Genesis: 8. 21. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

The problem I have is we are taught we live on a sin cursed earth.
God wiped the sin from the earth and said he would not curse it again.

Then he gave Noah dominion over the whole earth ,even what is in the air.
This dominion I believe applies to evil as well as it abides on earth.
Right off we see hams generations being cursed by Noah.
It is man who has the sin nature not the earth or satan making you sin.
What are the Calvinist ideas on this hypothesis?

 

[DeaconDean]

One question:
It has been said we have inherited a sin nature from Adam.

Here is the passage to support that statment:

Genesis: 8. 21. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

The problem I have is we are taught we live on a sin cursed earth.
God wiped the sin from the earth and said he would not curse it again.

Then he gave Noah dominion over the whole earth ,even what is in the air.
This dominion I believe applies to evil as well as it abides on earth.
Right off we see hams generations being cursed by Noah.
It is man who has the sin nature not the earth or satan making you sin.
What are the Calvinist ideas on this hypothesis?

I could be wrong, but, it seems to me that at the time of the deluge, the earth as well as sinful man both suffered.

So when God says "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;" he has not made the earth to suffer for mans sins.

John Gill comments:

"I will not again curse the ground for man's sake,
or drown it for the sin of man, as he had cursed it for the sin of Adam, and which continued till this time; but now was taken off, and it became more fruitful, and very probably by means of the waters which had been so long upon it, and had left a fructifying virtue in it,"

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

That being the case, he just to me came off as clear as mud.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry about that. What I mean is ppl keep harping about having a free will. The word 'free' means w/o restrictions. Our wills are bound by our nature. A lion will not eat grass. Why? It's nature precludes it from doing so. It won't eat grass because it can't and it can't because its nature precludes it from doing so.

Carry this expression over to fallen man. Man will not choose to serve God because they can't, and they can't because their fallen nature precludes them from doing so. Only after God has wrought grace, and only after this work, can anyone choose to serve God, because God has changed their nature.

Nothing in this shows me they were in possession of a free will. Now, I am not sure about man being a free moral agent. The truth is the only thing that sets us free, and sinners are nit moral, per se. Please expound. Thanks in advance.

 

[now faith]

One thing I hope we can agree on is man has a fallen nature,he is naturally drawn to disobedience of God.
Those in Christ have been redeemed from this nature,but there will always be reprobate people who will not honor God even that they know there is a God.