Calvinist Robots

[chestertonrules]

It amazes me how easily you lose grasp of context & become confused about whom is being spoken.
Observe;
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Dogs & sows, not sheep.

Are Dogs and Sows made free from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?


Yes or No?

It's not complicated.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules;

Either we made the choice or he did. It can't be both.

I never said it was.

If he made the choice, then we are robots.

We make the choice. We are created beings. He predestined His creation.
Get over yourself.

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".

Well, James certainly can't be asserting we are capable of what only Jesus Christ is, can he?

 

[chestertonrules]

I never said it was.

We make the choice. We are created beings. He predestined His creation.
Get over yourself.



Well, James certainly can't be asserting we are capable of what only Jesus Christ is, can he?

Not exactly.

He is making it clear that our choices and actions impact our salvation.

If you tell a person to get into a lifeboat, you can be responsible for saving their life. Of course, this was only possible thanks to the existence of the lifeboat.

 

[Rick Otto]

Are Dogs and Sows made free from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?


Yes or No?

It's not complicated.

Except for you.
Yes. You can detox them & fill them full of Kosher health food.
You can bathe & wash them clean & put lipstick on them. You can even teach them to parrot every item in the catechism.
They can be free from the pollutions of the world thru KNOWING about Christ, but they can only be made free from damnation by Christ "knowing" them.

 

[chestertonrules]

9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:.

What makes a person Godly?

What makes a person unjust?

 

[chestertonrules]

Except for you.
Yes. You can detox them & fill them full of Kosher health food.
You can bathe & wash them clean & put lipstick on them. You can even teach them to parrot every item in the catechism.
They can be free from the pollutions of the world thru KNOWING about Christ, but they can only be made free from damnation by Christ "knowing" them.

I'll stick to the bible as written, not Calvinist twisting.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules; Not exactly.

He is making it clear that our choices and actions impact our salvation.

Yes,... the qulity of it via the rewards we earn &/or lose.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'll stick to the bible as written, not Calvinist twisting.

I understand your frustration & retreat.
I'm sorry you're unable to understand it enough to refute it.

 

[chestertonrules]

I understand your frustration & retreat.
I'm sorry you're unable to understand it enough to refute it.

I believe the words as written.

You rewrite them to fit your dogma.

THEY were made free by KNOWING JESUS.

You reject these words and insert your dogma.

I understand. Your dogma is more important to you than the words of scripture.

 

[A New Dawn]

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Do you not see the word "knowing" in that verse? One has to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior before they are made free from the evil of the world. And that is what justification is. Salvation from the penalty of sin.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For all believers. READ. THE. CONTEXT.

 

[chestertonrules]

Do you not see the word "knowing" in that verse? One has to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior before they are made free from the evil of the world. And that is what justification is. Salvation from the penalty of sin.

I agree that they were saved. Then what? Salvation can be lost.



But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules;I believe the words as written.

I believe you believe you do.

You rewrite them to fit your dogma.

You are a liar & a bad judge of whiskey. Next round is on me.

THEY were made free by KNOWING JESUS.

That is a total rewrite if I ever saw one. They were only made free of the pollution of the world, not original sin, and they achieved that by knowing about him, not by knowing Him. That much is obvious in verse 20 alone.

You reject these words and insert your dogma.

You accuse the bretheren to your own destruction. Worse yet, it makes you look fat.

I understand. Your dogma is more important to you than the words of scripture.

You wouldn't know the difference because you haven't learn to identify what scripture is, much less how to read it. I gotta almost admire your efforts, tho.

 

[squint]

I believe the words as written.

You rewrite them to fit your dogma.

THEY were made free by KNOWING JESUS.

You reject these words and insert your dogma.

I understand. Your dogma is more important to you than the words of scripture.

What is it that you do any differently than the Calvinist?

You heap judgments upon your fellow man just the same as they do. And you justify yourself. So what else is new in the world of christianity?

You think your angle is somehow different or better when the end results are nearly identical?

You condemn the same amount of people to hell as they do. The UNbelieving of mankind. There is no difference between the bottom line of your position and the Calvinist position.

In Calvinism there is total depravity and in chestertons world there is a world full of bad decision makers. Is there really a difference there either?

Your attempt to dialog with Calvinism only means to ask them to condemn people on the basis of mankinds choice rather than Gods choice, but it's condemnation either way you slice it isn't it?

You are merely using your will to exercise manipulation of others wills to get them to rely on YOUR CHOICES of what THEIR CHOICES should be.

The real question in these matters IS...

CAN God change a heart if He wanted to? And if your God cannot DO THAT...well...perhaps that God is not worth choosing?

enjoy!

squint

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree that they were saved. Then what? Salvation can be lost.


But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

So now, since you were found out to be wrong, you are changing the subject?

 

[chestertonrules]

What is it that you do any differently than the Calvinist?

Calvinists believe that God pre-ordained some men to eternal torture with no regard for their actions, words, or thoughts while he rescued some equally corrupt men for eternal bliss.

I find this silly and unbiblical.

The bible makes it clear that we will be judged for our actions, and that only those that strive for holiness will see the Lord.

 

[chestertonrules]

So now, since you were found out to be wrong, you are changing the subject?

That was my whole point!

What do you think I was wrong about?

 

[chestertonrules]

I believe you believe you do.
You are a liar & a bad judge of whiskey. Next round is on me.


That is a total rewrite if I ever saw one. They were only made free of the pollution of the world, not original sin, and they achieved that by knowing about him, not by knowing Him. That much is obvious in verse 20 alone.

You accuse the bretheren to your own destruction. Worse yet, it makes you look fat.


You wouldn't know the difference because you haven't learn to identify what scripture is, much less how to read it. I gotta almost admire your efforts, tho.

Rick, you twist all scripture to fit your dogma.

You are incapable of accepting crystal clear words that expose the flaws in Calvinism because your dogma is more important to you than the words of scripture.

Keep striving!

Hebrews 12:14 "Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

 

[A New Dawn]

That was my whole point!

What do you think I was wrong about?

Since this is the post that this line goes back to, I'd assume, since you keep going on and on about God wanting all of us to choose him, and we that we make the decision whether or not we will go to heaven, I'd say that your point is that of us being the one to choose to believe in Christ rather than Him choosing us, not whether or not we can turn from that belief.

Foreknown, not pre-planned.

God wants all of us to choose him.

Our will dictates which of us will go to heaven.

We can choose to accept or reject God's grace.

Two separate issues. Please try to follow the conversation.

 

[squint]

Calvinists believe that God pre-ordained some men to eternal torture with no regard for their actions, words, or thoughts

And you condemn them for the same bad thoughts actions or words. So WHAT?

while he rescued some equally corrupt men for eternal bliss.

Yeah, and YOU make bad decisions too that you openly forgive in the name of God. So what else is new?

I find this silly and unbiblical.

And I say you're wasting your breath cause your bottom line is so close to theirs they are nearly identical.

The bible makes it clear that we will be judged for our actions, and that only those that strive for holiness will see the Lord.

And you are sorely mistaken on that count as well. But it won't matter. You are pressed into heaping eternal damnation judgments for mankinds decisions as if your judgments deserved any kind of eternal reward. Done anything ETERNAL lately?

God clearly saves people whom HE MADE ENEMIES...

Read all about it in Romans 11: particularly in 26-32. The decisions of the enemies of the Gospel are irrelevant to their SALVATION. He SAVES THEM anyway.

And yet for all your supposed 'freewill' YOU CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES in this matter.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules; Rick, you twist all scripture to fit your dogma.

Chez, you consistantly fall back on this accusation when you are cornered with your self-contradictions.

You are incapable of accepting crystal clear words that expose the flaws in Calvinism because your dogma is more important to you than the words of scripture.

You're projecting your fear of loss - the seperation anxiety of your ego from self control onto me. It's a natural reflex.