Calvinist Robots

[chestertonrules]

Chez, you consistantly fall back on this accusation when you are cornered with your self-contradictions.

You're projecting your fear of loss - the seperation anxiety of your ego from self control onto me. It's a natural reflex.

Thanks for the free psychoanalysis!

Meanwhile, you are left with scripture:

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Those who seek by patience in well doing.

Sounds very deliberate.

You deny that this is necessary, right?

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules; Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Not according to the merit of their good works, which have none in them, but according to the nature of them. As Matt 7 explains:

...have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sounds very deliberate.

Every bit as deliberate as God deliberately predestined.

You deny that this is necessary, right?

No. I deny your understanding on how & why & how it is necessary.

 

[chestertonrules]

Not according to the merit of their good works, which have none in them, but according to the nature of them. As Matt 7 explains:

...have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did you miss that part?

Every bit as deliberate as God deliberately predestined.


No. I deny your understanding on how & why & how it is necessary.

You deny the words of the bible.

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

We can't do it alone, but we MUST do it to live eternally.

 

[Rick Otto]

"...ye that work iniquity."

Did you miss that part?[/quote]
Not at all. It is my point that the nature of the deed & not the deed itself that is what determines the judgement of the deed.

quote=chestertonrules; You deny the words of the bible.

Again, you say that because you do not comprehend them.
It is quite tiresome, but completely understandable.

 

[chestertonrules]

"...ye that work iniquity."

Did you miss that part?[/quote]

Not at all. It is my point that the nature of the deed & not the deed itself

According to your reformed handbook?

that is what determines the judgement of the deed.
Again, you say that because you do not comprehend them.
It is quite tiresome, but completely understandable.

They are quite clear, unless they contradict your dogma, then they become quite difficult to understand.


Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules;They are quite clear, unless they contradict your dogma, then they become quite difficult to understand.

I understand that to be your situation. You can still mature beyond it.

 

[chestertonrules]

I understand that to be your situation. You can still mature beyond it.

Doesn't sound appealing or wise.

Is this in your bible?


14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these, except for those two over there. They are the cursed non elect children who have been condemned to hell since before they were born."

 

[heymikey80]

Calvinists believe that God pre-ordained some men to eternal torture with no regard for their actions, words, or thoughts

You've been informed numerous times that your statement is false, with citations to boot to inform this ignorance.

The Canons of Dordt actually define Calvinism as it exists today:

Head 1, Point 5: The cause or blame for this unbelief, as well as for all other sins, is not at all in God, but in man. Faith in Jesus Christ, however, and salvation through him is a free gift of God. As Scripture says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8). Likewise: It has been freely given to you to believe in Christ (Phil. 1:29).

Conclusion

those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

• * * *
  that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; ... and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

• Canons of Dordt
  

... while he rescued some equally corrupt men for eternal bliss.

In distinction from, "There but for the grace of God, go I."

I find this silly and unbiblical.

The bible makes it clear that we will be judged for our actions, and that only those that strive for holiness will see the Lord.

The Bible makes it clear that everyone is equally guilty for sins and sinfulness before God.

 

[SummaScriptura]

"Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed." - Jean C.

 

[jckstraw72]

so how does God decide who to save and who to damn? its easy say that its not irregardless of our actions or desires, but since we have all sinned and yet He chooses to treat some with love and some with hate, it surely seems arbitrary.

 

[A New Dawn]

so how does God decide who to save and who to damn? its easy say that its not irregardless of our actions or desires, but since we have all sinned and yet He chooses to treat some with love and some with hate, it surely seems arbitrary.

It is. That is why it is called 'unconditional election'.

 

[jckstraw72]

ok, well heymikey chastised chestertonrules for pointing that out ...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed." - Jean C.

That is why I buy my bread from the store instead of sowing and reaping the wheat to make it

 

[heymikey80]

ok, well heymikey chastised chestertonrules for pointing that out ...

I believe I chastised CR for something entirely different from arbitrary -- for calling it "silly and unbiblical."

That's somewhat different from "arbitrary".

"Arbitrary" is a very different word. First off, you're forcing me to deal with an Equivocation in your word "arbitrary". For if you were to use the primary definition, then ultimately, if God is the sole First Cause, then every action of God is ultimately arbitrary, because everything is "subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion."

So this complaint only has "legs" if we move to its connotated meanings of "capricious; unreasonable; unsupported". In those cases, which do we accuse God of: caprice, (ie, shallowness)? I don't find Him capricious. Unreasonable? While I don't know the exact reasons, God seems quite reasonable in bringing about His choices. Unsupported? God's supported His choices by sending His Son to die. Either He's quite capricious about His Son's life, or the reality is that God's supported His action with His very Being.

So no, God's not being arbitrary in the latter sense.

But back to the former sense. Is God arbitrary about when people are born, where they live and die? Was God arbitrary about other things in His creation? Or is it just that we don't comprehend working with the level of power and authority that God possesses?

Is an arbitrary decision from someone who is perfectly and completely just and good in his rulings, is that wrong?

Are we saying God's inherently wrong for being the First Cause of everything? No.

In terms of arbitrariness, Paul expected this question from his viewpoint: "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

Was Paul's view of God's mercy and hardening a view of God's arbitrariness?

 

[jckstraw72]

everyone has sinned. so what is different about those that God chooses for salvation from those He chooses for condemnation?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

everyone has sinned. so what is different about those that God chooses for salvation from those He chooses for condemnation?

Well, looks like the condemned ones get their flesh and blood picked by the birds/animals

Ezekiel 39:17 " And thou son of adam, thus He says my Lord YHWH, say thou! to bird of every wing and to all of beast of the field: 'be assembled/06908 qabats ye! and come ye! together/0622 'acaph ye from round about on Sacrifice of Me which I Sacrificing for ye, a Sacrifice great on Mountains of Israel, and ye eat flesh and ye drink blood. 18 Flesh of mighty-ones ye shall eat, and blood of princes of the Land ye shall drink.....

 

[&Abel]

Your overconfidence in your thinking is causing you to get sloppy.
He knows everything AND He gave us the ability to make choices.

He forknew because He predestined the choice we would make for ourselves.

I'm comfortable with that.
AND we will be saved by God's choice, not our own.

so then god predetermined Lucifer to choose evil and Adam and Eve to follow his deception

so basically according to your theology, god is the father of lies and the father of sin

 

[&Abel]

How can anyone always have had good in them when the Bible clearly states that NO ONE is righteous, NO ONE understands, NO ONE seeks after God. NO. NOT. ONE!

Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I never said I was righteous without christ but I certainly had good within me

I was convicted by the holy spirit on many different occasions and yet I would go right back to sinning after making the choice to turn my life around

without christ I could not make sense of being good...I wanted to be good...I wanted to treat ppl as good as I could(and I tried) but then I Felt as though I would be weak in the world and it wasn't logical...that you had to be selfish to survive

only in christ and his teachings did it all make sense

that to embrace good is to be an enemy of the world

 

[chestertonrules]

"Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed." - Jean C.

 

[&Abel]

can you explain that parable for me? I've never fully understood it