Calvinist Robots

[&Abel]

What man did with the image is not what the image is.
Who told you man has no true choice?
You're using the relative, subjective word "true" like you think a predestined choice isn't a choice (truly). What in the definition of choice precludes that act of decision from having been determined by the omniscient creator of the creature who makes that decision? I assert it is still a choice, just one that you personaly value less for some reason (as if you don't own it), because God destined it.

tip toeing around the obvious

 

[jckstraw72]

Here's your dilemma (and the ultimate Arminian dilemma) squint;

God created all those people who eventually end up in Hell.

God obviously knew at the time he created them that they would end up in hell.

But God created them anyway.

Is THIS the God you know?


Dalmas

our God gave man free will.

 

[drstevej]

our God gave man free will.

Did you chose you parents?
Explain your role in your first (physical) birth.

 

[&Abel]

Did you chose you parents?
Explain your role in your first (physical) birth.

no and we didn't choose to be created by god either

but HE chose to give us freewill

this is his primary will in our creation

a being free to choose

his secondary will is for us to choose right and come to him

 

[drstevej]

no and we didn't choose to be created by god either

but HE chose to give us freewill

this is his primary will in our creation

a being free to choose

his secondary will is for us to choose right and come to him

The new birth like our physical birth was not the will of man but of God.

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

The new birth like our physical birth was not the will of man but of God.

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double-minded.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of the corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[&Abel]

The new birth like our physical birth was not the will of man but of God.

John 1:12-13

12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

yes, god stepped in and took away our dept from our bad choices so that if anyone should BELIEVE IN HIM they shall have eternal life

you realize that belief is action we must take

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

Also I have a question of Calvinists addressed in thread, if I could have responses. Thank you.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7347621

 

[&Abel]

let me just say that there is a difference between

predetermined and predestined

predetermined means that god decided our will for us by design(which would make our will, gods will in essence)

predestined means he already knows the outcome of the choices he gave us to make

these words are somewhat interchangeable but I think you know what I'm getting at

 

[&Abel]

humanity is the result of pure evil clashing with pure good

the reason god is not responsible for evil is because he set into motion a creation that was good and did not by design HAVE to become evil

it was the design of choice included that allowed for this to happen

and the outcome is pure good as well

so gods original design of a freewill creature was good and is good because it will have its perfect good result

if gods original intent was for a creature that would sin then he becomes responsible for sin

because his intent was not a creature that would sin but a creature that would be capable of it due to its freedom

god is no longer responsible but the creature he created with the ability to make that choice

its because god passed responsibility onto our shoulders that he is free from responsibility

 

[MamaZ]

let me just say that there is a difference between

predetermined and predestined

predetermined means that god decided our will for us by design(which would make our will, gods will in essence)

predestined means he already knows the outcome of the choices he gave us to make

these words are somewhat interchangeable but I think you know what I'm getting at

Actually predestined means predetermined. you are thinking of predicting I think.

 

[&Abel]

I told you that the words are interchangeable

but I think they still capture the difference I'm going for

foreknown is a better word

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I told you that the words are interchangeable

but I think they still capture the difference I'm going for

foreknown is a better word

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Romans 11:2 ouk <3756> {NOT} apwsato <683> (5662) {THRUSTS AWAY} o <3588> {THE} qeoV <2316> {GOD} ton <3588> {THE}laon <2992> {PEOPLE,} autou <846> {OF HIM} on <3739> {WHOM} proegnw <4267> (5656) {FOREKNEW}

4267. proginosko prog-in-oce'-ko from 4253 and 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before).

 

[MamaZ]

Where does scripture state that foreknew means he knew our actions and not us? Let me put some scripture up..
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"


Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 

[jckstraw72]

exactly -- Romans 8 -- predestination is contingent upon foreknowledge. God did not choose some for salvation and some for condemnation but rather He foreknew the outcome.

 

[&Abel]

exactly -- Romans 8 -- predestination is contingent upon foreknowledge. God did not choose some for salvation and some for condemnation but rather He foreknew the outcome.

EXACTLY!

 

[MamaZ]

exactly -- Romans 8 -- predestination is contingent upon foreknowledge. God did not choose some for salvation and some for condemnation but rather He foreknew the outcome.

We did not say that He chose some for eternal punishment.. He chose those to whom He gives salvation to..
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 

[MamaZ]

All men are condemned before God. He just chooses some to save. It is mans sin that predestines them to Hell not God.. God in His mercy chooses some out of condemnation for salvation.

 

[&Abel]

Where does scripture state that foreknew means he knew our actions and not us? Let me put some scripture up..
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!"


Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Mat 7:23 is talking about knowing us during our life

as in we followed tradition but never had a true relationship with christ

 

[&Abel]

We did not say that He chose some for eternal punishment.. He chose those to whom He gives salvation to..
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

it means that those who are predestined to come to christ were called by him when he reached out to them(and they responded)

its speaking from a future perspective

he glorifies and justifies those who finish the race