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Calvinist Robots

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squint

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There are other views than the Calvinist view on the atonement that are not universal in nature, and those I am willing to debate.

Well, lets see. If yours and the others are both limited, what are you debating again?

FWIW I do not believe in universal atonement i.e. sufficient for DEVILS or for inanimate material for example.

I do not believe universalism is Biblical though.

And again, what that 'term' conjures up in your mind I do not know. I would say that more than likely the brush you have pulled out to paint me would be a false one.

I have the right to believe that just as you have the right to believe .................... whatever it is you believe.

I do feel very comfortable to say to the Calvinist that one cannot claim Divine Sovereignty and then claim to be the sole determiner of same as that methodology is a logical fallacy. Of course they CAN say their logical fallacy is a mystery. That is allowable ground in theology...:p

enjoy

squint
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I do feel very comfortable to say to the Calvinist that one cannot claim Divine Sovereignty and then claim to be the sole determiner of same as that methodology is a logical fallacy. Of course they CAN say their logical fallacy is a mystery. That is allowable ground in theology...:p
:blush:

Colo 1:26 The Mystery having been Hid from the ages and from the generations now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him.
27 To-whom wills, the God, to make known any the riches of the glory of the Mystery, this, in the Nations which is Christ in ye the hope of glory.
 
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chestertonrules

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Everybody is a different person.
I think the people God chooses to save, He saves.
Don't you?:cool:


I think God let's us choose.

This is his sovereign will.

Anyway, you confirmed by point about Calvinistic evangelization. It is meaningless from the perspective of Calvinists.
 
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Rick Otto

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I think God let's us choose.

This is his sovereign will.

Anyway, you confirmed by point about Calvinistic evangelization. It is meaningless from the perspective of Calvinists.
I think you're a thinking man.

I think you must've missed this:

"The city of Geneva, long associated with Calvin, was also an important refugee center in the Reformer's day. Throughout sixteenth century Europe, persecuted Protestants fled their homelands, many of whom found their way to Geneva. In the 1550s, the population of Geneva literally doubled.
One of those refugees who came to Geneva was the Englishman John Bale, who wrote: "Geneva seems to me to be the wonderful miracle of the whole world. For so many from all countries come here, as it were, to a sanctuary. Is it not wonderful that Spaniards, Italians, Scots, Englishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, disagreeing in manners, speech, and apparel, should live so lovingly and friendly, and dwell together like a ... Christian congregation?"
Since Geneva was French-speaking, the vast majority of refugees came from France. As they sat under Calvin's teaching in the Cathedral of St. Pierre, the French refugees' hearts stirred for their homeland. Many of them felt compelled to return to France with the Protestant gospel.
Calvin, however, did not want to send uneducated missionaries back to the dangers of Catholic France. He believed that a good missionary had to be a good theologian first. And so he inspired and educated them. He trained them theologically, tested their preaching ability, and carefully scrutinized their moral character. Calvin and the Genevan Consistory sent properly trained missionaries back to France to share the Gospel.
Calvin did not just educate them and send men back to France. These missionaries did not just become photographic memories on Calvin's refrigerator door. On the contrary; Calvin remained intimately involved in all that they were doing.
The Genevan archives hold hundreds of letters containing Calvin's pastoral and practical advice on establishing underground churches. He did not just send missionaries; he invested himself in long-term relationships with them.
Concrete information exists from the year 1555 onwards. The data indicate that by 1555, there were five underground Protestant churches in France. By 1559, the number of these Protestant churches jumped to more than one hundred. And scholars estimate that by 1562 there were more than 2,150 churches established in France with approximately three-million Protestant souls in attendance.
This can only be described as an explosion of missionary activity; detonated in large part by the Genevan Consistory and other Swiss Protestant cities. Far from being disinterested in missions, history shows that Calvin was enraptured by it.
To be a missionary in France was so dangerous that the Genevan Consistory decided not to keep any record of such missionary activity in order to protect their lives. And so the Genevan Consistory deliberately obscured the names and the numbers of missionaries sent out from Geneva.
Scholar Peter Wilcox has combed the Genevan archives and dusted off some of Calvin's five hundred-year old correspondence. Much to his surprise, Wilcox discovered a treasure trove of material indicating that the last ten years of Calvin's life in Geneva (1555-1564) were preoccupied with missions' among the dusty tomes were letters written by the Genevan missionaries themselves revealing just how successful they had been. One French church in Bergerac boasted to Calvin:
"There is, by the grace of God, such a movement in our district that the devil is already for the most part driven out, so that we are able to provide ministers for ourselves. From day to day, we are growing, and God has caused His Word to bear such fruit that at sermons on Sundays, there are about four- to five-thousand people."

Calvin
 
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chestertonrules

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I think you must've missed this:

Totally irrelevant.

I think the people God chooses to save, He saves.

So, would different people have been saved if Calvin had not engaged in evangelism?


To elaborate. The answer, according to Calvinism, is NO.

So, we can conclude that Calvin was acting out of pride, building his reputation rather than saving souls. Agreed?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You just told me.

You believe God chooses some for eternal torture with no regard for their thought, words or actions on earth.

You claim he puts us into two piles. One to love, one to torture.

You claim that he does this for his own glory.
^_^ Actually I didn't tell you what you have said here. These are your opinons not mine.
 
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chestertonrules

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^_^ Actually I didn't tell you what you have said here. These are your opinons not mine.


I wrote:

You just told me.

You believe God chooses some for eternal torture with no regard for their thought, words or actions on earth.

Does God take into effect our thoughts, words, or actions when choosing his elect? Yes or No?



You claim he puts us into two piles. One to love, one to torture.

Does God determine who goes to heaven? Does everyone not going to heaven go to hell?
 
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Totally irrelevant.



So, would different people have been saved if Calvin had not engaged in evangelism?


To elaborate. The answer, according to Calvinism, is NO.

So, we can conclude that Calvin was acting out of pride, building his reputation rather than saving souls. Agreed?
:confused: It is the Gospel that has the power unto salvation not any man. Tee hee..
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=chestertonrules;50756279]

Totally irrelevant.
Why? Because it is historical evidence of both your ignorance, & error?



So, would different people have been saved if Calvin had not engaged in evangelism?

To elaborate. The answer, according to Calvinism, is NO.
LOL, Chez, that is a simplification, definitely not an elaboration.

So, we can conclude that Calvin was acting out of pride, building his reputation rather than saving souls. Agreed?
I would conclude that only if he exhibited control-freak symptoms as well, like claiming to be error-free in teaching, to be infallable on faith & morals, wore elaborate costumes of expensive material & loaded up on gaudy jewel bedecked props.
 
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I wrote:

You just told me.



Does God take into effect our thoughts, words, or actions when choosing his elect? Yes or No?

Nope for we are not saved by works of righeousness. We are saved by unmerited favor of God. For it is by grace that any man is saved not their thougts actions or words. Then it would be by merit. :) One is not saved by merit.



Does God determine who goes to heaven? Does everyone not going to heaven go to hell?
Yes God determines who He invites into His Home. Everyone not invited into His home are still dead in their sins and have no part of Christ.
 
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chestertonrules

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I wrote:


Yes God determines who He invites into His Home. Everyone not invited into His home are still dead in their sins and have no part of Christ.


So then, you agree with this:



You believe God chooses some for eternal torture with no regard for their thought, words or actions on earth.

You claim he puts us into two piles. One to love, one to torture.

You claim that he does this for his own glory.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I wrote:


Yes God determines who He invites into His Home. Everyone not invited into His home are still dead in their sins and have no part of Christ.
:blush:

John 8:23 And He said to them "ye out of the below are, I out of the above Am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not Am out of the world, this.
24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.'
 
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Rick Otto

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not[/i] an elaboration.


quote]


Your evasions aren't helping.

Can man's actions change the number of the elect?
I don't think so, but I can't be sure I understand the question because I don't know what the point of it is other than another attempt to deny God's sovereignity over your personal destiny & claim it for yourself.
LOL! The only thing I need to evade, I easily can by staying upwind of your thinking.
 
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A New Dawn

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You just told me.

You believe God chooses some for eternal torture with no regard for their thought, words or actions on earth.

You claim he puts us into two piles. One to love, one to torture.

You claim that he does this for his own glory.

No, God didn't choose some for eternal torture, Man chose that for himself. (It always boggles my mind that people just hop right over this fact. :doh: ) God chose to save some from the eternal torture they chose for themselves.
 
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chestertonrules

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No, God didn't choose some for eternal torture, Man chose that for himself. (It always boggles my mind that people just hop right over this fact. :doh: ) God chose to save some from the eternal torture they chose for themselves.

Who decides who goes to heaven or hell?

Do those who are going to heaven deserve to go there?
 
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chestertonrules

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I don't think so, but I can't be sure I understand the question because I don't know what the point of it is other than another attempt to deny God's sovereignity over your personal destiny & claim it for yourself.
LOL! The only thing I need to evade, I easily can by staying upwind of your thinking.


I'm exposing the logical flaws of Calvinism.

Clearly, human actions impact our eternal destiny.

That's the whole point of the bible and all the exhortations to obey.

Calvinists attempt to claim that human actions have no impact on who goes to heaven, but this is not biblical or logical.

It is so illogical, that Calvinists spend time evangelizing! They don't even accept their own presuppositions.
 
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squint

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No, God didn't choose some for eternal torture, Man chose that for himself.

Uh, no, God chooses NOT to save some in Calvins world.

(It always boggles my mind that people just hop right over this fact. :doh: ) God chose to save some from the eternal torture they chose for themselves.

Alright, that's twice in this thread you've been caught playing it both ways. :D

 
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A New Dawn

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Does God determine who goes to heaven?

Whose choice do you think it should be? It is called the 'kingdom of God' for a reason. It's not the 'kingdom of chestertonrules', or, likely, only you'd end up there. God's kingdom, God's rules, God chooses. No matter who's theology you choose, God has drawn some line in the sand and chooses. Why are you arguing so much against Calvinism when everyone else has the same issue?
 
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